Is patriotism in India and Pakistan defined by hate for each other??

[313ghazi]

Asalamu Alaikum

There's never been a census, but I guarantee most Pakistanis would be Deobandi (given how most Madrassa's are run by Deobandi's, and Deobandi's have the most power among all religious groups in Pakistan), however, I do firmly believe that there would be a large number of Barelvi's and Shia's.

The only major difference is the issue of shrines and intercession, which is why I said that if Sharia is formed in Pakistan we need to be sensitive to these sorts of issues (I'd propose banning the creation of more shrines, but leaving the current ones as they are while educating people to not pray towards them).

You see, here we see the same problem between you and I, that we see between India and Pakistan. This same problem has harmed Muslims for centuries and will hold back unity amongst us.

Shrines, intercession and praying to the dead, it's all smoke and mirrors used to keep us apart. There is no doubt there are acts of shirk which occur daily, but none of these have any basis in Shariah or the teachings of Ahmed Raza Khan (ra).

Unfortunately for as long as there has been deobandi and barelvi, there has been an immaturity in their approach towards each other. Nobody will read the teachings of the other, unless it is to find a point to fight about. I was told by barelvi molvi that deobandi think god sits on a chair and has physical hands like a human, but actually talking to a deobandi friend, i learnt that this is not accurate or true. I learnt that by talking to someone, but i've heard molvi telling people to stay away from the other, from fear of falling into "misguidance!"

Look how much we could benefit from Sharia, how much good could be done, yet we don't trust each other not to opress the other. The role of the calipha is to forbid haram and to encourage halal. Anything that falls into a grey area, must be dealt with on a case by case basis. We should let all variety within us be secure that they can continue to practice their faith, without fear.

I think the most important thing for us is to centralise religion, so this market they have made of the deen cannot continue.

Also this was not a personal dig at you, i agree with you, i just think our ulema generally are more interested in their own self importance than the greater good of the deen.

 

[jamahir]

When you have an example that has stood the test of Time. We shall discuss this.

Iraq, Libya and Syria were working models until invasions by Western powers. We cannot overlook that.

Although i am pressed to ask someone who advocates humanism. What is your definition of being a nationalist or a patriot?

About being a patriot, there is an old saying by an American : "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.". Therefore it is my duty to try to build in my country a government that stands truly for the progress of its citizens and does not exist merely for the sake of being a government.

About being a nationalist, I will try to apply to my nation the most appropriate political ideology even if it is derived from another nation.

 

[El Sidd]

Iraq, Libya and Syria were working models until invasions by Western powers. We cannot overlook that.

No working model collapses in such devastation.

These 10 20 year phases of countries are but a mere blink for historians. Socialism does not work but only hasten the demise.

I cannot keep going in circles with you. Enjoy the thread.

Iraq, Libya and Syria were working models until invasions by Western powers. We cannot overlook that.



About being a patriot, there is an old saying by an American : "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.". Therefore it is my duty to try to build in my country a government that stands truly for the progress of its citizens and does not exist merely for the sake of being a government.

About being a nationalist, I will try to apply to my nation the most appropriate political ideology even if it is derived from another nation.

and thats why i say you are having mid life identity crisis.

 

[Krishnan]

Before the white man Drew that line.

The region was small princely state constantly at war with each other.

It was never a singular country.

But those princely states were not divided based on religion or ethnic/cultural differences but only political differences.

There were many high ranking Hindus within the Muslim princely states and vice versa.

 

[El Sidd]

But those princely states were not divided based on religion or ethnic/cultural differences but only political differences.

There were many high ranking Hindus within the Muslim princely states and vice versa.

Caste system politics had deep religious roots. Divide and rule of the British was copycat of what Mughals did as well.

Religion has always played a role in tropical weather countries. It is a scientific fact.

 

[jamahir]

No working model collapses in such devastation.

These 10 20 year phases of countries are but a mere blink for historians. Socialism does not work but only hasten the demise.

I repeat once more... Imagine Libya and Syria if they had not been invaded.

You see, your line of argument is the very line that Western powers want everyone to believe in... that socialism does not work.

I cannot keep going in circles with you. Enjoy the thread.

Ah, thank you for ceasing your retired trollness in this thread.

In the case of korea we are talking the same people.

Agreed bhai, but the political ideology of both was drawn with a war that cost the North alone four million lives. This is less than what our Partition cost.

 

[Desert Fox]

@Desert Fox

Asalamu Alaikum

Maybe you were right about mixed race marriages.

Walaikum assalam

You see, this is the problem with these people. Because they themselves were born out of such unions (interracial/interreligious) they suffer inferiority complex and identity crises and for this reason they desire to tear down the single unified identity of others (in this case Pakistanis/Muslims) by advocating the destruction of religious and ethnic differences so that they themselves can feel less like outcasts and outsiders.

This is why I advocate a positive Religio-Nationalism and against this universalism Liberal B.S. that our traitorous Pakistani Liberals and their allies like @jamahir and this @Krishnan are peddling to undermine Pakistan and it's unique identity and potential future.

@Psychic @Metanoia @PAKISTANFOREVER

@django

It is happening.

Noor Jehan' s daughter married to Indian Hindu millionaire Vivek Narain:

View attachment 492302

@Zibago @jamahir​

A Muslim woman is absolutely forbidden from marrying any non-Muslim man, even men from the People of the Book, let alone a polytheist (Hindu).

So this woman has violated Islamic tenets. Celebrities are the proponents of socially destructive trends and for this reason need to be humiliated, especially in this case because this is an act of cultural treason.

 

[Hamza913]

You see, here we see the same problem between you and I, that we see between India and Pakistan. This same problem has harmed Muslims for centuries and will hold back unity amongst us.

Shrines, intercession and praying to the dead, it's all smoke and mirrors used to keep us apart. There is no doubt there are acts of shirk which occur daily, but none of these have any basis in Shariah or the teachings of Ahmed Raza Khan (ra).

Unfortunately for as long as there has been deobandi and barelvi, there has been an immaturity in their approach towards each other. Nobody will read the teachings of the other, unless it is to find a point to fight about. I was told by barelvi molvi that deobandi think god sits on a chair and has physical hands like a human, but actually talking to a deobandi friend, i learnt that this is not accurate or true. I learnt that by talking to someone, but i've heard molvi telling people to stay away from the other, from fear of falling into "misguidance!"

Look how much we could benefit from Sharia, how much good could be done, yet we don't trust each other not to opress the other. The role of the calipha is to forbid haram and to encourage halal. Anything that falls into a grey area, must be dealt with on a case by case basis. We should let all variety within us be secure that they can continue to practice their faith, without fear.

I think the most important thing for us is to centralise religion, so this market they have made of the deen cannot continue.

Also this was not a personal dig at you, i agree with you, i just think our ulema generally are more interested in their own self importance than the greater good of the deen.

Ahmed Raza Khan did teach some pretty haram things (I've read parts of his book), but that's irrelevant. The whole shrine culture is the big difference between Deobandis and Barelvis, hence why I said we need to rule by Sharia while being sensitive to each side and trying to eliminate this shrine culture.

 

[fitpOsitive]

India has lobbied strongly and used sabotage in both sectors which you concerned your post with.



You simply have an identity crisis which most people do not have. It is a unique situation indeed.

Dont u think u also have unique problem?

 

[El Sidd]

Dont u think u also have unique problem?

I know.

 

[Foo_Fighter]

If Nationalism came first before religion... Pakistan and India would be good friends.... Wait then Partition wouldn't have happened.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

If Nationalism came first before religion... Pakistan and India would be good friends.... Wait then Partition wouldn't have happened.

It would HAVE happened regardless because the RACIAL differences between Pakistanis and indians is TOO vast and unbridgeable. There is NOTHING to bind the 2 people together be it religion or race. Religion and race are the 2 major forces for nationalism therefore your argument is null and void.

Walaikum assalam

You see, this is the problem with these people. Because they themselves were born out of such unions (interracial/interreligious) they suffer inferiority complex and identity crises and for this reason they desire to tear down the single unified identity of others (in this case Pakistanis/Muslims) by advocating the destruction of religious and ethnic differences so that they themselves can feel less like outcasts and outsiders.

This is why I advocate a positive Religio-Nationalism and against this universalism Liberal B.S. that our traitorous Pakistani Liberals and their allies like @jamahir and this @Krishnan are peddling to undermine Pakistan and it's unique identity and potential future.

@Psychic @Metanoia @PAKISTANFOREVER

@django


A Muslim woman is absolutely forbidden from marrying any non-Muslim man, even men from the People of the Book, let alone a polytheist (Hindu).

So this woman has violated Islamic tenets. Celebrities are the proponents of socially destructive trends and for this reason need to be humiliated, especially in this case because this is an act of cultural treason.

The biggest victims of such unions is the offspring they produce.

 

[django]

Mmm, why is that hard to believe? You make it sound like Indians and Pakistanis don't get married

Here's another famous Indian-Pakistani/Hindu-Muslim marriage

View attachment 492301​

Their are marriages but not frequent at all and in vast majority of cases it's pak guy marrying hindu women.

Are you forgetting that prior to 1947 when some White men drew a line in the sand and called it a border between India and Pakistan we were one single country for thousands of years?

And I have just seen a flying cow with a monkey on it's back,,,,,, you either no not basic history or you are a damn troll, I suspect it is latter!!!!

@Horus bhai this @Krishnan I suspect is a multi-id troll, I hope he is taken care of.Kudos bhai

 

[jamahir]

No, they're MUCH bigger.

This is part of the problem, you guys keep saying "wE r dE sAME" when we're clearly not, and it agitates a lot of us (especially Pashtuns, Baluchis, Hazara's and people from GB).

Maybe you don't know that the Afghan Pastuns ( Pathans ) rather like Shahrukh Khan and claim him to be their own.

Also, there is this vid about an Indian trekker encountering an Afghan in Europe and both being friendly but the Afghan having not so friendly an experience with a Pakistani they had both met.

Don't agree. Serbians and Croats have not killed a million of eachother. In August 1947, the Pakistanis and indians did. That CAN NEVER EVER be forgotton or forgiven. All else is just conjecture.

In the Korea war, the North Koreans lost four million lives, more than in the Indian Partition. If the Koreans can now talk peace why can't we in the Subcontinent??

Also on a side track, there was the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission founded by Nelson Mandela after the Apartheid system ended. The Commission was crucial to putting away the bad memories of the Apartheid.

 

[fitpOsitive]

I know.

Lol..