Is Pakistan's Army As Islamist as We Think?

[Pfpilot]

There is a sad sort of reality to the idea that society is just a generalized representation of the people that form it. We, as in Pakistanis of all religions and education levels play an equal part in making it what it is. There are too few educated liberals and too many extremists, but we play our part in keeping the status quo from changing much. For when has any Pakistani of a privileged and/or educated upbringing done anything for the betterment of those, who require guidance from anyone other than the eager wahabi types. We, as in all Pakistanis, have failed the nation. As much as I wish I could detach myself from this reality, it isnt possible. Change comes from within, from the deepest, most primitive roots of society...all of us just keep waiting for the person beside us to take a stand, before, we do anything, ourselves. Its the kind of thought process that has doomed us to the point of cultural decay and without cultural development, there is no real development of the nation.

 

[fatman17]

There is a sad sort of reality to the idea that society is just a generalized representation of the people that form it. We, as in Pakistanis of all religions and education levels play an equal part in making it what it is. There are too few educated liberals and too many extremists, but we play our part in keeping the status quo from changing much. For when has any Pakistani of a privileged and/or educated upbringing done anything for the betterment of those, who require guidance from anyone other than the eager wahabi types. We, as in all Pakistanis, have failed the nation. As much as I wish I could detach myself from this reality, it isnt possible. Change comes from within, from the deepest, most primitive roots of society...all of us just keep waiting for the person beside us to take a stand, before, we do anything, ourselves. Its the kind of thought process that has doomed us to the point of cultural decay and without cultural development, there is no real development of the nation.

if its the people fault then why have government in the first place. are we not electing the people who form the government and is it then supposed to change the lot of the under-priveleged through jobs, education, awareness programs, rule of law etc.

there are many private organisations like CFS (Citizens Foundation), SOS (Save our Souls), Edhi Foundation and many more who are filling the gap left by our government's ineptitude.

 

[Rank]

Hi,,

Pakistan was not created in the name of 'islam'---otherwise all the religious fundamentalist parties would have supported Jinnah---it was a nation created so that muslims could live freely---. Jinnah had the realization that the muslims would remain in a terrible condition----a whiskey drinking and bacon eating man was least concerned about islam as preached by the fundamentalists---and then we have the thinker of our nation---Mohammad Iqbal----need we talk about his habbits---nothing to do with a fundamentalist islamist----how about the others----. They both had a vision for a place for a people which had nothing to do with religion but a place where they could be in majority.

Some in the muslim league may have faked it to get votes from the illeterate muslim vote bank----.

Pakistanis need to live like human beings first----before they can start talking about islam----. They have little humanity---and barely any character left----islam ain't going to do nothing to these people----.

IMO Pakistan state create for Muslims. It not about only Jinnah .. the story of creation starts from Sirsyed A. and Iqbal who had dream a separate nation for Muslims.

 

[Andross]

IMO Pakistan state create for Muslims. It not about only Jinnah .. the story of creation starts from Sirsyed A. and Iqbal who had dream a separate nation for Muslims.

Jinnah is the father of the nation and Pakistan belongs to Hindus, Christians and Ahmedis also

 

[Edevelop]

Jinnah is the father of the nation and Pakistan belongs to Hindus, Christians and Ahmedis also

I can't agree more than Andross.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Jinnah is the father of the nation and Pakistan belongs to Hindus, Christians and Ahmedis also

andross , what was the point of creating a separate nation if muslims and hindus could live together ?

the basic premise behind Pakistan was that it was a nation of muslims and that hindus and muslims could not live together .What is the need for Pakistan to exist if they could all exist with each other in harmony ?

i believe Pakistan was first and foremost meant for muslims , if not then the idea of Pakistan itself would not exist .i agree with stealth.

 

[Edevelop]

andross , what was the point of creating a separate nation if muslims and hindus could live together ?

the basic premise behind Pakistan was that it was a nation of muslims and that hindus and muslims could not live together .What is the need for Pakistan to exist if they could all exist with each other in harmony ?

i believe Pakistan was first and foremost meant for muslims , if not then the idea of Pakistan itself would not exist .i agree with stealth.

Historically, Pakistan was never an integral part of India but rather it was under British rule. They the 'British' found it easier to rule both neighbouring countries and found that imposing just 1 same culture and language during the 1900s would benefit their ownintrests. The 'Urdu language never existed back then so it was just the Indian muslims that came late to Pakistan during 1950s and 1960s who basically spread. Yes it is true that there are some Muslim extremists in Pakistan who are in favour of their majority but generally this ideology of 'only Muslims' is just biased and ridiculous. I believe Pakistan is for Muslims, Hindus, Christians, and other minorities who actually have been living there from as long ago as centuries and who have had their own practice of culture.

 

[Edevelop]

Now going back to the topic, i think Pakistan's army is divided as either Islamist or non Islamist First of all, when you think of them supporting the Taliban and etc it does't necessarily make them religious. The key interest must be saving Pakistan. Secondly, i have yet to see the army as whole as islamist since the era of Zia Ul haq. No colleague of his dared to go in a separate way. Some generals seem to show that their actions are liberal. Remember the operation of red mosque... Musharraf and few others were in support for this. We might have few that want Whabism in the country. Some of our generals are really impressed by Saudis. Often you'll see them doing hajj every single year and actually practicing the religion like Priests.

 

[k_n]

That was a low blow. Pakistani liberals can hold their own in any society in the world. They are among the bravest and most forthright people going, and should be admired and given unstinting support, not this kind of disparagement.

Sorry to say but the 'Liberal' strata of Pakistani society appears ineffective at best and hypocritical at its worst. Here are we as a Nation (read India) making the mistake of (mis)identifying the 'Liberal' section of Pakistani society.

Who are they? The ones who have been successful enterprenuers, lawers, accountants, doctors, civil servants and defence personnel in the 'good old' 60s 70s 80s. Are we talking of the academicians and journalists or sports personalities or artists,musicians,singers.... ? Or The ones who have been born into landowning and industrialist families, raised in the plush neighbourhoods of Lhr, Khi or Isloo, done A-levels and currently studying in the US ? Are we The ones who have put to use their priviledged background by running NGOs and being involved in Phlianthropy.
I'm sory to say apart from the answer to the last question that I've put up I seem to have li'l respect for the rest. Let us start from the person who has been tagged as the martyr for the cause of Liberals in Pakistan. The Governor of Punjab Salman Taseer. His, politely put, 'point scoring' anecdotes over India have been well known.
Was the man Brave? Indeed! He was also the Governor of Punjab, lest we forget. A person at such senior position in Civil services is bound to be confident about his/her stand as far his/her personal security is concerned.
The cause he stood for was indeed noble and personally I feel sory that his life ended the way it did.

However, its indeed true that some of the most reputed 'liberal' from accross the border have disilliusioned us throuh their articles, anecdotes and personal example. Here , I would like to caution that a Liberal simply isnt the one who gets up with the negative 'publicity' being showered on his/her nation and writes a rosy article highlighting the pillars of strength in the nation or someone whose well educated and erudite but alls prey to painstaking narrow comparisons with the neighbouring country.

We must be careful before raising the 'liberal' section or the 'civil society' of our neighbouring country as a whole to an alter when many amongst them don't quite belong to that exalted state.

After all ZAB's upbringing and personal life is every bit Liberal if we keep the political considerations that made him ammend the constitution to declare Ahmedis heretics aside. However, the same gentleman also FIRST spoke of the 1000 yr War.

 

[JohnyD]

I dont think so..in fact pak is one of the modest muslim country...ya but Islam is d foundation of Pakistan and main cause of The Partition of India.....fortunate or unfortunate is a different debate...

 

[k_n]

Your indian society is no better. your elites and that too the educated ones are still showering petals on the likes of Godse and Modi . in your country the biggest population of species called Dalits is endangered at the hands of your so called elite cast.

Correction.
1. Dalits are NOT the biggest section of the Hindu community. Wait for results of this year's Caste based census.
2. Elite is a Class. The Class has an advantage of imposing it's will on the disadvantaged in a country where rule of Law has been institutionally corrupted in practise. The disadvantaged class may belong to any community/caste. No doubt the Tribals and Dalits are the most disadvantaged, but they are not the only ones.

 

[bc040400065]

That is a really wrong perception about the military being islamists, because what i have seen and heard the top brass of our military is any thing but not islamist for sure, although some are religious but majority of the top brass has nothing to do with islam or islamism. So i really don't understand why people in west or india get this islamist military impression.

 

[Manas]

Historically, Pakistan was never an integral part of India but rather it was under British rule. They the 'British' found it easier to rule both neighbouring countries and found that imposing just 1 same culture and language during the 1900s would benefit their ownintrests. The 'Urdu language never existed back then so it was just the Indian muslims that came late to Pakistan during 1950s and 1960s who basically spread. Yes it is true that there are some Muslim extremists in Pakistan who are in favour of their majority but generally this ideology of 'only Muslims' is just biased and ridiculous. I believe Pakistan is for Muslims, Hindus, Christians, and other minorities who actually have been living there from as long ago as centuries and who have had their own practice of culture.

For someone with little knowledge about the history behind the creation Pakistan and two nation theory ,let me tell you its the insecure Muslims living as minorities though big one at that in areas such as indian UP/Bihar ,none part of today's Pakistan first thought of a separate Muslim state where they would be in total majority and hence propagated a divisive idea called two nation theory.

 

[Andross]

andross , what was the point of creating a separate nation if muslims and hindus could live together ?

the basic premise behind Pakistan was that it was a nation of muslims and that hindus and muslims could not live together .What is the need for Pakistan to exist if they could all exist with each other in harmony ?

i believe Pakistan was first and foremost meant for muslims , if not then the idea of Pakistan itself would not exist .i agree with stealth.

But we are living together even in Pak minorites are living with muslims

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

But we are living together even in Pak minorites are living with muslims

So that puts in question the reason for existence of a separate country called Pakistan ? Not that i am against it though .