Is Pakistan's Army As Islamist as We Think?

[fatman17]

Indeed we will be disappointed if we seek conclusive judgements from this piece because as Fair herself says the paper is not meant to be conclusive, indeed, it "social liberalism" (whatever that may mean in Pakistan) which she is measuring and from that inferring items or conclusions for which she cannot present evidence.

To you statement that the Pakistan army remains organized, disciplined and well respected, that may well be, however, that does not tell us anything about the degree of islamist penetration of the armed forces -- what we should take at face value are the overt symbols and slogans of islamist ideology indoctrinated through out the army. Indeed the need to suggest that the army has not been penetrated by Islamists is itself enough to suggest that this is a concern widely shared.

my dear sir - u know me well enough and i will not state anything which is in-correct. AFAIK the symbols and slogans u refer to are just that, symbols and slogans. they are being 'taken-down' in a manner that dosnt offend anyone. they were certainly at their zenith during Zia's time as chief but have been watered down slowly by subsequent chiefs like asif nawaz, kakar, karamat, etc.

 

[Uchiha]

Dress code was the last thing on my mind...... nor did I mind how she looked. In fact when ever she got a chance, we had a good conversation.

So you mean talking is bad?

---------- Post added at 02:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

There is no threat to the Army neither inside nor outside as long as they are faithful to Pakistan , Islam and the Muslim Ummah. If they strictly follows the rules of justice with Muslims and non-Muslims, truly follows the rules of Allah Ta-alah/Holy Quran and Sunnah of Rasool-Allah PBUH.

Ummah? what ummuh u talking about?

---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

There is no threat to the Army neither inside nor outside as long as they are faithful to Pakistan , Islam and the Muslim Ummah. If they strictly follows the rules of justice with Muslims and non-Muslims, truly follows the rules of Allah Ta-alah/Holy Quran and Sunnah of Rasool-Allah PBUH.

Ummah? what ummuh u talking about?

 

[Joe Shearer]

my dear sir - u know me well enough and i will not state anything which is in-correct. AFAIK the symbols and slogans u refer to are just that, symbols and slogans. they are being 'taken-down' in a manner that dosnt offend anyone. they were certainly at their zenith during Zia's time as chief but have been watered down slowly by subsequent chiefs like asif nawaz, kakar, karamat, etc.

I can't help pointing out that these three by themselves were perhaps the finest combination of professional skill and political rectitude in Pakistan's history (a very personal opinion, of course). The point one is forced to contemplate is whether or not this tempo was maintained after them. There might very well have been progress; but was the tempo the same?

 

[Manas]

Do you think that the Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian, Saudi, Iraqi, Irani and many other armies in predominantly Muslims countries are any different when it comes to leveraging Islamic doctrine to motivate their troops?

Forget that video , its my non-serious youtube attempt to contradict Joe Shearer lengthy hochpoch .

You above anyone all is well aware of the amount of radicalization in Pakistan society including army .

I'll dare say Pakistan society is less radicalized than those middle eastern counties you named above.

But even small amount radicalization creates huge problem for your country because Pakistan isn't middle east or even Afghanistanwhere mullah take over the modern country . and within a week the country can manage the change as if the change is no big deal


The thing is Islamic radicalization doesn't suit traditional Sufia Islamic society of Pakistan at all .Hence small infusion of wahhabi Islamist ideas for last 20 years has created a dire situation where muslims (Taliban) kills other pakistanis muslims who consider as less pious. And the turmoil would only grow bigger and surely more violent as bigger population turn Islamist . Since in pakistan's case Islamism means an abnormal malignant growth in the body and as the body wont accept , the cancer of Islamism will kill the body.

 

[maverick1977]

As a muslim, one believes, that wars can only be fought as ordained by Allah, otherwise, its haram killing any human being, therrefore, pakistani army based on islamic principles will follow islamic way of fighting, u can call whatever name u wanna call it.

 

[my2cents]

That was a low blow. Pakistani liberals can hold their own in any society in the world. They are among the bravest and most forthright people going, and should be admired and given unstinting support, not this kind of disparagement.

It is true that the vast mass of pakistani society is conservative. So is the vast mass of Indian society.

I totally agree with you. Unfortunately liberal voices never come to forefront because of the media. Pakistani liberals have to come forward and voice their concerns. It is very important their contribution to national narrative not be usurped by extremist viewpoints.

 

[Joe Shearer]

As a muslim, one believes, that wars can only be fought as ordained by Allah, otherwise, its haram killing any human being, therrefore, pakistani army based on islamic principles will follow islamic way of fighting, u can call whatever name u wanna call it.

Unfortunately for the thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen, and the many thousands of civilians killed by the Pakistani Army - and Air Force and Navy - and their many hundreds of thousands of survivors, it does not matter whether they were killed on Islamic principles, as victims in an unjust war based on using methods that violated all conventions on warfare evolved with painstaking care over the centuries, or as victims of ethnic cleansing, or as plain murder victims.

The 1965 Operation Gibraltar was a special forces false flag operation irrespective of the kind of tincture that anybody might want to put on it. Nobody has to give their permission for this description to be used.

 

[indushek]

Unfortunately for the thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen, and the many thousands of civilians killed by the Pakistani Army - and Air Force and Navy - and their many hundreds of thousands of survivors, it does not matter whether they were killed on Islamic principles, as victims in an unjust war based on using methods that violated all conventions on warfare evolved with painstaking care over the centuries, or as victims of ethnic cleansing, or as plain murder victims.

The 1965 Operation Gibraltar was a special forces false flag operation irrespective of the kind of tincture that anybody might want to put on it. Nobody has to give their permission for this description to be used.

So what is the final verdict here?? is it or is it not??

 

[IND151]

Unfortunately for the thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen, and the many thousands of civilians killed by the Pakistani Army - and Air Force and Navy - and their many hundreds of thousands of survivors, it does not matter whether they were killed on Islamic principles, as victims in an unjust war based on using methods that violated all conventions on warfare evolved with painstaking care over the centuries, or as victims of ethnic cleansing, or as plain murder victims.

The 1965 Operation Gibraltar was a special forces false flag operation irrespective of the kind of tincture that anybody might want to put on it. Nobody has to give their permission for this description to be used.

well said sir

 

[Super Falcon]

who said they are islamist army their actions dont show becoz they have better life standard than coomon pakistani yes they must have some benefits becoz they defend the country free houses,free health,free electiccity it should end here but with pakistan army it is not enough their child get free education where comon pakistani dont giove his child eduacation of standard which army officer child get and when you go to army school for chil admission first of all they dont let you inn and if they let you inn than you must have 50 thousand in your pocklet in order to have education for child what kind of army it is and coomon daily life use of things they get half of a prize but outside their baracks common pakistani cant even afford to eat even for one time i think army should not be like this helping people in floods and etc is their duty and they dont do it hardly siiting in helicopter and throwing things anyone can do and yet people praise them it is their duty they paid for it and whatever they do pakistani nation pay 1000 times more for what they do

 

[niaz]

Let us first define what do we mean by Islamist? Does it mean most of the soldiers are God fearing Muslims? I should hope so!

Do we mean that there is a jihadi element sympathizing directly or indirectly with the Al-Qaida and the Takfiris? I should hope not.

However, it must be said that during the long era of the bigot Zia many key elements of the PA and their leaders were deliberately ‘wahabized’ (I hope purists will forgive me for inventing English!). We had a DG of ISI (Hamid Gul) who is still a darling of the TTP & the Takfirirs

This resulted in a lot of sympathy for the fundamentalists. One may recall incidents during early days of WOT where sections even a whole company of the PA soldiers armed to the teeth surrendered to the Taliban. I expect many such elements have by now been cleansed as a result of the butchering of surrendered PA soldiers in Swat. However it is difficult to accept that Pakistan Armed Services do not have a significant pro-Taliban section else attacks on GHQ and PN Faisal Base could not have taken place.

It is also a fact that a large section of the intelligentsia has fundamentalist sympathies. This is evident from the column ‘Junoon main nijaat hai’. Meaning there is salvation in madness by Hamid Mir in yesterday’s Jang. Hamid Mir in this column implies that even though rationale says that no one has the right to take anyone’s life without a trial in a court, sometimes madness is good. He tries to justify it with the example the Quaid whose ‘junoon’ was responsible for the birth of Pakistan.

Hamid Mir hosts ‘Capital Talk’ a very popular TV program on Geo TV. To my simple mind this hypocrite is justifying extra judicial killing of Slaman Taseer and supporting Mumtaz Qadri in a roundabout way. When people who have a very large audience hold such extreme views, what do you expect of the common man?

PA is a part of the society and I am sure that many officers and ratings of the armed services hold Takfiri and Wahabi views and are helping TTP in destroying law and order in Pakistan.

 

[shree835]

who said they are islamist army their actions dont show becoz they have better life standard than coomon pakistani yes they must have some benefits becoz they defend the country free houses,free health,free electiccity it should end here but with pakistan army it is not enough their child get free education where comon pakistani dont giove his child eduacation of standard which army officer child get and when you go to army school for chil admission first of all they dont let you inn and if they let you inn than you must have 50 thousand in your pocklet in order to have education for child what kind of army it is and coomon daily life use of things they get half of a prize but outside their baracks common pakistani cant even afford to eat even for one time i think army should not be like this helping people in floods and etc is their duty and they dont do it hardly siiting in helicopter and throwing things anyone can do and yet people praise them it is their duty they paid for it and whatever they do pakistani nation pay 1000 times more for what they do

Chicha ...Tum Sa Confused nahi dekha...

 

[shree835]

Pakistan has been created on the name of Islam so Pakistan Army must be Islamic to defend Islam in all fronts otherwise there was no use to create Pakistan if we are not Islamic.

I will correct your word...And here we go...

Pakistan has been created on JUST HATE INDIA Concept ...So U are Islamic or not does not matter...But you must HATE INDIA.

 

[mitth]

Pakistan has been created on the Islam and name are Islamic republic Of Pakistan........
and You should follow country fact........

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan has been created on the Islam and name are Islamic republic Of Pakistan........
and You should follow country fact........

Hi,,

Pakistan was not created in the name of 'islam'---otherwise all the religious fundamentalist parties would have supported Jinnah---it was a nation created so that muslims could live freely---. Jinnah had the realization that the muslims would remain in a terrible condition----a whiskey drinking and bacon eating man was least concerned about islam as preached by the fundamentalists---and then we have the thinker of our nation---Mohammad Iqbal----need we talk about his habbits---nothing to do with a fundamentalist islamist----how about the others----. They both had a vision for a place for a people which had nothing to do with religion but a place where they could be in majority.

Some in the muslim league may have faked it to get votes from the illeterate muslim vote bank----.

Pakistanis need to live like human beings first----before they can start talking about islam----. They have little humanity---and barely any character left----islam ain't going to do nothing to these people----.