Is Pakistan's Army As Islamist as We Think?

[Windjammer]

"Visibly she seemed oblivious to Islamic values" If your Islamic values involve walking around in a tent then clearly, she is the better Muslim. Infact I dont think there is anything wrong with the PIA uniform islamically

Dress code was the last thing on my mind...... nor did I mind how she looked. In fact when ever she got a chance, we had a good conversation.

 

[Joe Shearer]

dont you think you are using fanciful words and shying away from accepting your own claim as wrong

No; I was using fanciful words to point out that those words about the elite showering petals were not mine. I was being polite and restrained, to no purpose, in not seeking an apology. Since you persist, please look up the original posts, and make amends.

---------- Post added at 05:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 PM ----------

Sir, I just took the easy way out.

And WHAT do you think, comrade, I was hinting at? LOL.

 

[DarK-LorD]

Yes.It is.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes.It is.

I have to admit that this comment takes the prize for being helpful, deeply insightful and brilliantly argued.

 

[DarK-LorD]

I have to admit that this comment takes the prize for being helpful, deeply insightful and brilliantly argued.

Sir,if it is not How Would You explain This:
1)Abbottabad-Osama found within a few Kilometers from PA training center.Though US never accused Pakistan directly but it always hinted at it.
2)PNS Mehran-It is widely believed that elements within Pakistan Navy were involved in passing information to Al-Qaeda.
A SSG(N) commando was arrested later.Shahzad was killed for trying to expose the links.
3)US commanders have declared openly that ISI nurtures & supports the Haqqani network.
4)Ilyas Kashmiri-An ex SSG soldier is/was(?) a senior Al-Qaeda leader.

And There are many many more.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir,if it is not How Would You explain This:
1)Abbottabad-Osama found within a few Kilometers from PA training center.Though US never accused Pakistan directly but it always hinted at it.

As complicity between OBL and sections, including inactive and out-of-power sections of the ISI, or even military personnel not in the intelligence/higher command loop.

2)PNS Mehran-It is widely believed that elements within Pakistan Navy were involved in passing information to Al-Qaeda.
A SSG(N) commando was arrested later.Shahzad was killed for trying to expose the links.

Possible. And from this may we conclude that the entire Pakistan Navy is Islamicised?

3)US commanders have declared openly that ISI nurtures & supports the Haqqani network.

Again, may I then conclude that the ISI is the entire body of the military?

4)Ilyas Kashmiri-An ex SSG soldier is/was(?) a senior Al-Qaeda leader.

And so? There have been others too; is it already time to write off the entire Army?

And There are many many more.

The numbers involved are too small to generalise, IMHO.

If we judge the PA by this, how can I turn around and tell my KM friends that the isolated cases of harrassment, abduction, random shooting, rape and extra-judicial and extra-legal murder that they bring to my notice are bagatelle, are ridiculous compared to the very large number of soldiers posted therein?

Be fair, comrade. Or is this warfare on a different battleground?

 

[DarK-LorD]

As complicity between OBL and sections, including inactive and out-of-power sections of the ISI, or even military personnel not in the intelligence/higher command loop.



Possible. And from this may we conclude that the entire Pakistan Navy is Islamicised?



Again, may I then conclude that the ISI is the entire body of the military?



And so? There have been others too; is it already time to write off the entire Army?



The numbers involved are too small to generalise, IMHO.

If we judge the PA by this, how can I turn around and tell my KM friends that the isolated cases of harrassment, abduction, random shooting, rape and extra-judicial and extra-legal murder that they bring to my notice are bagatelle, are ridiculous compared to the very large number of soldiers posted therein?

The entire Military may not be radicalized but PA definitely has more radicals in it's rank than most other Armies.
A Brigadier of PA was arrested a few months back
Talking Kashmir,it's an open Secret that Pakistan nurtured Terrorists Groups as proxies.

 

[Jango]

Sir,if it is not How Would You explain This:
1)Abbottabad-Osama found within a few Kilometers from PA training center.Though US never accused Pakistan directly but it always hinted at it.
2)PNS Mehran-It is widely believed that elements within Pakistan Navy were involved in passing information to Al-Qaeda.
A SSG(N) commando was arrested later.Shahzad was killed for trying to expose the links.
3)US commanders have declared openly that ISI nurtures & supports the Haqqani network.
4)Ilyas Kashmiri-An ex SSG soldier is/was(?) a senior Al-Qaeda leader.

And There are many many more.

Well, point number 2 has been proved wrong. Yes, their was negligence, but not direct involvement by commissioned officers or by people enlisted in the navy. The people who were most pointed at for complicity were janitors, sweepers and cooks, and they are not commissioned or serving. So, you cannot blame the navy there that it is being radicalised.

As for point number 3, well, does not the US do it? , and any proof will also be welcome, or i can just go out there tomorrow and ,make up phony facts and say that the ISI and Army is deeply involved in terror in Pakistan.

Ilyas Kashmiri is not really Al Qaeda, TTP or other militant organizations is the right name. And Former SSG, you dont have any control over retired personnel, whatever they do after retirement, iit is not the army's duty to see that, unless they were high ranking officials, so cant call that radicalization, because a retired army man did it, AFTER retirement, not influenced by the army.

 

[muse]

Just a few days ago three army intelligence officials were killed, ambushed -now how do you suppose the terrorists got a hold of information abut which vehicle they would be in and their route and when they left and what time they would be on the road?? I think suggesting that Mehran was not an inside job is just more of the denial many Pakistanis are afflicted with.

 

[VCheng]

Interesting article, with some thought-provoking statements:

These apprehensions have been galvanized by the numerous terrorist attacks on military and intelligence institutions and personnel that have involved assistance from within the armed forces. ........................

This is prima facie evidence that Islamist influences with the military may be a minority in terms of numbers, but far more dangerous in terms of efficacy.

Pakistan's Army likely needs such motivation against a larger, existential nemesis because -- though it has started every war with India -- it has never won any of them.

Do the stalwarts here accept the two part bolded statement, for recognizing the two issues will go a long way in setting the ship straight?

With little hope of defeating India on the battlefield, Pakistan has pursued an asymmetric form of warfare consisting of guerrilla and terrorist attacks under the security of its creeping nuclear umbrella. .......................

Another admission that must occur if corrective action is to be truly successful.

Admittedly, these conclusions are tentative, and these measures of social liberalism are no doubt imperfect. This study, moreover, cannot be conclusive as it can only speak to the districts that produce officers, not the worldview of officers themselves. Given the high stakes involved, this subject requires more thorough data collection and analysis. Understanding these dynamics is vital for the United States, but it's perhaps even more important for Pakistan and Pakistanis who rely on their military to protect their country.

So this article can only be a starting point for further, more objective and data-based analysis. Until that is forthcoming, the conclusions are only tentative, in my view.

 

[Jango]

Just a few days ago three army intelligence officials were killed, ambushed -now how do you suppose the terrorists got a hold of information abut which vehicle they would be in and their route and when they left and what time they would be on the road?? I think suggesting that Mehran was not an inside job is just more of the denial many Pakistanis are afflicted with.

Not denying the POSSIBILITY of inside involvement, rather, just denying the assumption that the whole military is radicalised because of this incident. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Now, for the incident of Intelligence ambush, the US gets ambushed, the ISAF gets Ambushed, everybody gets ambushed, but their own citizens do not start pointing fingers at it's own army that they were involved. Ambushing does not really need to have a inside man as well.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The entire Military may not be radicalized but PA definitely has more radicals in it's rank than most other Armies.
A Brigadier of PA was arrested a few months back
Talking Kashmir,it's an open Secret that Pakistan nurtured Terrorists Groups as proxies.

What is this whole thread about? Why would a cool, level-headed, fact-oriented expert like Fatman17 introduce this post? And the Christine Fair article? Why has Muse voiced his concerns?

It is precisely because everyone has a fear that the increasing radicalisation of society at large is reflected within the PA.

However, Christine Fair, much though I suspect her point of view and am wary about her opinions, has at least addresssed the problem beyond the anecdotal stage. Whether we agree or disagree with her, and I am personally not in possession of sufficient data to go either way, we have to respect her attempt at taking a scientific and sound way out of the problem.

The methodology needs tightening, no doubt about it. But is she, or anybody else likely to get PA cooperation on sensitive data? Imagine the hypertension within the IA if asked for a caste-wise break-up; the senior staff have never hesitated to turn down such requests for information with a brusque and brutally dismissive 'No'.

This is the best we can get, and I am prepared to accept the big picture she delineates, until concrete evidence to the contrary emerges.

Regarding the PA harbouring and nurturing terrorists, that is an element of state policy. I hate it personally, it is an abomination and a crime, but in the context, such behaviour is NOT an indicator of the Islamicisation of the armed forces. It is an indicator only of the generals realising how they can hurt us the most with the least effort on their parts.

Just a few days ago three army intelligence officials were killed, ambushed -now how do you suppose the terrorists got a hold of information abut which vehicle they would be in and their route and when they left and what time they would be on the road?? I think suggesting that Mehran was not an inside job is just more of the denial many Pakistanis are afflicted with.

Again, that there is concern about this possibility is undeniable. I am sure all reasonable people, whether Pakistani or Indian, share concern about some of its implications. However, it is still not an established fact, and we have to reserve judgement.

IMO, Christine Fair's article is a gallant attempt at quantifying the issue, and should be encouraged. Not by uncritical acceptance, but by engaged evaluation.

My two pies worth.

 

[muse]

Regarding the PA harbouring and nurturing terrorists, that is an element of state policy. I hate it personally, it is an abomination and a crime, but in the context, such behaviour is NOT an indicator of the Islamicisation of the armed forces. It is an indicator only of the generals realising how they can hurt us the most with the least effort on their parts

See Tom, the use of the proxies would not represent the kind of danger that it now does, were there actually a plan beyond just "Bleed them with a thousand cuts" -- after more than a decade the entire struggle is de-legitimized, that is to say that not only did the strategy fail but the entire rationale has failed - i can't imagine a greater failure and it gets worse, society ended up so radicalized that the army now has to hide from it's own populace - who in their right minds would not be concerned? .

 

[Drawn_Sword_of_God]

May be she was afraid of flying.
CAution: Never reciting Quranic verses when you are in Western flight, You may fall into big trouble...

have you been in a PIA airliner? they always recite a verse from quran before take off.

 

[Joe Shearer]

See Tom, the use of the proxies would not represent the kind of danger that it now does, were there actually a plan beyond just "Bleed them with a thousand cuts" -- after more than a decade the entire struggle is de-legitimized, that is to say that not only did the strategy fail but the entire rationale has failed - i can't imagine a greater failure and it gets worse, society ended up so radicalized that the army now has to hide from it's own populace - who in their right minds would not be concerned? .

I am not in disagreement. I think that the strategy was ultimately a failure, both a military and a moral failure. Not to mention the danger of radicalising society, leading the army to hide from its populace.

However, there is no straight line from that to the Islamicised Army that we fear. The time to be concerned is when the Army DOES NOT have to hide from its populace.