Is Pakistan's Army As Islamist as We Think?

[KALKI]

The indian criteria of liberalism is no more than less attire which btw is NO benchmark rest you are no more liberal than us rather at the same level keeping in view many things ranging from your religious issues to social ones.

Read post no. 10.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pakistani liberals, yes, sure they can.

However, they are an endangered species in Pakistan nowadays, what with lawyers, apparently the supposedly educated elite, showering rose petals upon a religious bigot and the killer of man who took the side of liberalism.

Couple that with what happened with Shahbaz Bhatti; and Sherry Rehman; and the Maulvi who performed the last rites of Salman Taseer and my question doesn't seem like a low blow at all.

It still does, and I will explain why. However, I am encouraged that you do acknowledge the courage and bravery that they exhibit.

Sure it is. Without a doubt. Indian society is no benchmark of liberalism either.

A society which still has stuff like dowry, sati, child marriage, casteism can never be a benchmark of liberalism.

However, that society is not the sbject of this thread, is it?

Right. Your argument is that this need not degenerate to Shiv's Gambit: "Your shirt is torn!" "So what? Your fly is open!" That is fair; we need not consider a benchmarking of Indian society, when the conversation is about Pakistani society.

Restricting ourselves to Pakistan and its society, the thrust of the article is that the Army is careful about picking its officers and its recruitment methods favour the liberal element in its society. Fair has NOT argued that society as a whole is liberal; she argues that liberal elements of society are being recruited.

That is why I felt in the first place that it was a low blow. It is not the general complexion of society, but the particular segments mined, that is under discussion.

 

[KALKI]

...and there comes my infraction for calling a spade a spade.

Saying "Pakistani society is no benchmark for liberalism", does not mean saying "Indian society is a benchmark for liberalism".

Even if my flags are Indian. It doesn't. Hello!

...but ahhh, WTH, I guess I'll have to just accept that not everyone is able to reason as critically as I'd like them to.

...and some of them are even mods on internet.

baah! WTH!

 

[KALKI]

It is not the general complexion of society, but the particular segments mined, that is under discussion.

I believe that when an article is posted, every single line of it is liable to scrutiny.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Christian fair is always quiet biased about Pakistan and its army but that is another issue.

here one wonders over the phrase "New data suggests it may be even more liberal than Pakistani society as a whole."


Its not New. its an OLD fact that Pakistan Army had always been more liberal than our society

You do understand that kaffirs like me are deathly afraid of losing caste by finding ourselves in agreement with you; it is the equivalent of a T-Bone steak eaten in the main temple at Tirupati. Please, PLEASE be careful about even an accidental alignment of our positions; that could cause incalculable harm. Have pity; I have a daughter of marriageable age, and I will have to pay a dowry of enormous proportions if this news leaks out.

Having dealt with the really important issues, I am constrained to wonder if Christina Fair is actually an effective commentator; both sides seem to hate her cordially!

Secondly, your remark about the Army being more liberal than society is very sympathetic; it is precisely the same here, with odd exceptions. To my horror, my Sainik School senior, a retired Brigadier, started spouting a strange brand of divisiveness at a party at home. To my relief, another of his batchmates shut him up in very quick time and left him drowning his sorrows in a large whiskey and soda. Liberalism is alive and well in the forces. Apparently on both sides of the border.

 

[Joe Shearer]

sir it does and it also includes schools run by the armys fauji foundation. cadet colleges and army public schools. the private schools she (fair) may be referring to are the elite private schools like aitchesons or lawrence college etc from which recruitment may not be as robust as in the past.

This is reasonable; not having any information about local conditions in Pakistan, it is good enough to have your characterisation of the situation and take it as a given.

and finally sir IMHO the pakistani army exists ot defend pakistan. thats is its raison d'etre. any move which would ensure pakistan's destruction like giving our nukes to terrorists or turning islamist for no strategic gain would contradict everything the military stands for.

You will find very, very few people disagreeing with this description as a desirable. The great worry, the main reason for Fair's article, is that this is not what is actually happening. The worry has been for some time the increase of Islamisation in the Army, that itself being thought to be due to an increase of Islamisation in society. We are all agreed that an Army which defends Pakistan, that does not make a disastrous move, such as handing over nuclear devices or materials for making nuclear devices, or turning Islamist (your caveat is noted, with some discomfort), is an Army that can be faced and dealt with, militarily and otherwise.

 

[fatman17]

it is precisely the same here, with odd exceptions.

case closed - can i offer you a whiskey soda sir (black dog ofcourse)

 

[fatman17]

This is reasonable; not having any information about local conditions in Pakistan, it is good enough to have your characterisation of the situation and take it as a given.



You will find very, very few people disagreeing with this description as a desirable. The great worry, the main reason for Fair's article, is that this is not what is actually happening. The worry has been for some time the increase of Islamisation in the Army, that itself being thought to be due to an increase of Islamisation in society. We are all agreed that an Army which defends Pakistan, that does not make a disastrous move, such as handing over nuclear devices or materials for making nuclear devices, or turning Islamist (your caveat is noted, with some discomfort), is an Army that can be faced and dealt with, militarily and otherwise.

the great worry lies with our american friends for the better part and thus maybe fair's article is directed for the american friends in their TT's.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your indian society is no better. your elites and that too the educated ones are still showering petals on the likes of Godse and Modi . in your country the biggest population of species called Dalits is endangered at the hands of your so called elite cast.

If a mild protest is to be heard, not our elites; people supporting Godse and Modi are hardly elite. And we are working hard on the Dalit issue. For your information, in this matter, you are preaching to the choir; being Shudra myself gives me a more than adequate understanding of the issues.

 

[Windjammer]

Once travelling on PIA from UK to Pakistan, I happened to be sitting facing the seat reserved for the cabin crew.
Just before take-off, one of the female air hostess, attractive and looking glamorous as one would expect, took her position in the crew seat. Visibly she seemed oblivious to Islamic values but as the plane began it's run, I witnessed something which indeed put me to shame. The young lady closed her eyes and started reciting Quranic verses until we were air borne.
The Pakistani Army or the society are by no means fanatics, While we may be liberal or moderate, the true Islamic beliefs are never far...... which indeed is our strength.

 

[Joe Shearer]

it is precisely the same here, with odd exceptions.

case closed - can i offer you a whiskey soda sir (black dog ofcourse)

Sir, it is DISGRACEFUL that a forum of this eminence does not have a facility for offering multiple thanks, and other forms of showing eager acceptance.

---------- Post added at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

...and there comes my infraction for calling a spade a spade.

Saying "Pakistani society is no benchmark for liberalism", does not mean saying "Indian society is a benchmark for liberalism".

Even if my flags are Indian. It doesn't. Hello!

...but ahhh, WTH, I guess I'll have to just accept that not everyone is able to reason as critically as I'd like them to.

...and some of them are even mods on internet.

baah! WTH!

I am sorry I seem to have annoyed you; that was not the intention. Perhaps the wording could have been a little less blunt. Consider me painted contrite.

I believe that when an article is posted, every single line of it is liable to scrutiny.

Reasonable, but also every post-scrutiny rejoinder must meet the mark.

 

[Spring Onion]

it is precisely the same here, with odd exceptions.

case closed - can i offer you a whiskey soda sir (black dog ofcourse)

silly of me someone mentioned black dog and i was arguing with him that this cant be whiskey

dahhh now i have to eat my words

 

[Black Widow]

Once travelling on PIA from UK to Pakistan, I happened to be sitting facing the seat reserved for the cabin crew.
Just before take-off, one of the female air hostess, attractive and looking glamorous as one would expect, took her position in the crew seat. Visibly she seemed oblivious to Islamic values but as the plane began it's run, I witnessed something which indeed put me to shame. The young lady closed her eyes and started reciting Quranic verses until we were air borne.
The Pakistani Army or the society are by no means fanatics, While we may be liberal or moderate, the true Islamic beliefs are never far...... which indeed is our strength.

May be she was afraid of flying.
CAution: Never reciting Quranic verses when you are in Western flight, You may fall into big trouble...

 

[Spring Onion]

If a mild protest is to be heard, not our elites; people supporting Godse and Modi are hardly elite. And we are working hard on the Dalit issue. For your information, in this matter, you are preaching to the choir; being Shudra myself gives me a more than adequate understanding of the issues.

Sir who is elite in India ? if you could explain this and i will be able to argue further if your point is fair enough or a just a protest

as far as the low cast issues is concerned well better leave it to some other thread as the facts suggest that over all your society mentally on this issue is at the same point as it was thousands of years back. the laws and rules laid down by governments are good for nothing

 

[very]

@very
@Black Widow

Needless to say, I disagree with you completely, but shall not open up the Jinnah_wanted_a_liberal_secular_Pakistan_with_a_Muslim_majority_population argument; it is pointless in the teeth of a dogmatic position based on faith and not on reason.

Of far greater interest are the contradictions in Fair's analysis. Her second factor, on the one hand, and her third and fourth factors, on the other, are flatly contradictory.

If the number of private schools is an index, then she has to do some sophisticated reasoning to explain how come there is a preponderance of retired officers in a private-school-starved district; surely in earlier generations, according to her hypothesis, it was from the elite that the officer class was recruited. Two possible answers supporting her thesis might be cited: (a) officers tend to settle down after retirement into less urban, rural backgrounds, and they are there, in private-school-starved districts at the END of their careers; presumably, they would have grown up elsewhere. This has to be checked. (b) There have been sufficient generations of officers for the preponderance of officers to reflect a preponderance of officers from non-elitist families. This is a possibility, though a little startling; it would indicate that a popularisation and a demoticisation of the officer class was a trend earlier than we had all thought.

The fourth point simply cannot be explained away, not certainly by Fair's tap-dancing around the subject. Either private schools provide a liberal milieu or they don't; if they provide a liberal milieu, and they are not predominant in the districts from which officers are recruited, then officers are NOT hired from a liberal milieu. This square simply cannot be circled.

Unfortunately, a promising start compromised by too many ifs and buts. Another Christine Fair piece of bunkum.

I understand that U have ure own reasoning but the basis of the creation of Pakistan for the Muslims of subcontinent to practice their religion Islam independantly and with freedom.To protect Islam in its original shape as it came 1400 years ago.To protect and defend Islam in its every aspect.
Thats why Allama Iqbal gave two nation theory and Mr. Jinnah took the guideline and created a free land for the Muslims of the sub-continent. That was the only reason the Muslims of the sub-continent sacrificed so much and supported Mr. Jinnah selflessly for the creation of our country.