Is Pakistan's Army As Islamist as We Think?

[Jango]

sir it does and it also includes schools run by the armys fauji foundation. cadet colleges and army public schools. the private schools she (fair) may be referring to are the elite private schools like aitchesons or lawrence college etc from which recruitment may not be as robust as in the past. and finally sir IMHO the pakistani army exists ot defend pakistan. thats is its raison d'etre. any move which would ensure pakistan's destruction like giving our nukes to terrorists or turning islamist for no strategic gain would contradict everything the military stands for.

Well, APS and Cadet colleges do not exactly give out mullahs, those people are also as liberal as Aitchison or Lawrence college or Beconhouse.

 

[Windjammer]

May be she was afraid of flying.

Actually she had been flying for three years then and loved it.

CAution: Never reciting Quranic verses when you are in Western flight, You may fall into big trouble...

You don't exactly have to do it on the intercom.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Once travelling on PIA from UK to Pakistan, I happened to be sitting facing the seat reserved for the cabin crew.
Just before take-off, one of the female air hostess, attractive and looking glamorous as one would expect, took her position in the crew seat. Visibly she seemed oblivious to Islamic values but as the plane began it's run, I witnessed something which indeed put me to shame. The young lady closed her eyes and started reciting Quranic verses until we were air borne.
The Pakistani Army or the society are by no means fanatics, While we may be liberal or moderate, the true Islamic beliefs are never far...... which indeed is our strength.

Trust me, the degree of fervour in your reply was excessive for the occasion.

Being secular is NOT being against religion; there is a place for the religious and for religion, and it is outside the public sphere. If the young lady had recited those verses on the PA system, that might be construed as anti-secular (though not fanatic, which is another, different degree of lack of reasoning under the influence).

Let me remind you that the best Pakistani generals were not necessarily the most Islamist ones.

 

[KALKI]

Sir who is elite in India ? if you could explain this and i will be able to argue further if your point is fair enough or a just a protest

as far as the low cast issues is concerned well better leave it to some other thread as the facts suggest that over all your society mentally on this issue is at the same point as it was thousands of years back. the laws and rules laid down by governments are good for nothing

If you wish to see the elite of India, you'd do well to see the MP's in the Rajya Sabha.

Rajya Sabha is the truest reflection of India's elite.

Not Lok Sabha but Rajya Sabha.

 

[Windjammer]

Trust me, the degree of fervour in your reply was excessive for the occasion.

Being secular is NOT being against religion; there is a place for the religious and for religion, and it is outside the public sphere. If the young lady had recited those verses on the PA system, that might be construed as anti-secular (though not fanatic, which is another, different degree of lack of reasoning under the influence).

Let me remind you that the best Pakistani generals were not necessarily the most Islamist ones.

The main purpose of the example was, one shouldn't take or accept everything on face values.
A demo in down town Karachi by some religious party chanting slogans against America and burning the Israeli flag doesn't portray the Pakistani mindset. That's all.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir who is elite in India ? if you could explain this and i will be able to argue further if your point is fair enough or a just a protest

Let me start with my city of origin, since my village of origin is now in a foreign country.

People from the known schools are elite: St. Xaviers, La Martiniere, Don Bosco, Calcutta Boys School, St. Lawrence, St. James, St. Thomas: Loreto House, Diocesan, Queen of the Missions among the anglicised; South Point, Mitra Institution, Hare School, Ballygunge Government High School, Gokhale Memorial (many more besides these) among the older vernacular institutions;

people from the better colleges are elite: Presidency, Scottish Church, St. Xaviers, Maulana Azad, Asutosh, Bethune, Lady Brabourne, Sanskrit College, and their peers; also Jadavpur University, Shibpur Engineering College, Hooghly Mohsin College;

people from the major professional institutes are elite: Calcutta Medical College, National Medical, NilRatan Sircar Medical College, RG Kar Medical College, IIT Kharagpur, IIM Calcutta;

people from the legal and medical professions are elite, including all judges, especially the High Court judges, members of Orr Dignam, Fox and Mundle, Sanderson Morgan, Khaitan and Co., or practitioners at Woodlands, Bellevue, BM Birla Heart Clinic, Ruby Hospital, Peerless Hospital, AMRI, a dozen more, including the teaching hospitals;

people who are members of the Bengal Club, Calcutta Club, Royal Calcutta Golf Club, Royal Calcutta Turf Club, Saturday Club, Tolly Club, CC&FC, Calcutta Swimming Club, Calcutta Rowing Club, Lake Club, Bengal Rowing Club;

people from the well-known business families are elite: the Sir R. N. Mukherjee family, the Birlas, the Goenkas, the Bangurs, the Khaitans, the Jalans, the Sens, the Mitras;

people from corporate circles are elite;directors of the tea, and other well-known Calcutta based companies, like ITC, Tata Steel, Metal Box, ICI, Lipton, Bengal Paints,Jenson & Nicholson, MacNeil and Magor, Mackinnon Mackenzie, Shaw Wallace, NICCO, Stewarts and Lloyds;

people from Eastern Command are elite, all those stationed at Fort William, but also those stationed in Darjeeling and in the Dooars; also the aviators at Kalaikunda and the northern air bases; also the sailors at Calcutta, although their numbers have fallen off sharply;

people from the IAS, IPS and IFS, the IAAS and the Railways are elite;

people from the embassies and consulates are elite, though not Indian;

people from the world of literature, art, film and dance, and singing, theatre are elite.

Does that give you a picture of whom I mean?

as far as the low cast issues is concerned well better leave it to some other thread as the facts suggest that over all your society mentally on this issue is at the same point as it was thousands of years back. the laws and rules laid down by governments are good for nothing

As you wish; I was merely responding to your mischievous remark in a spirit of similar mischief, and without bothering to contradict your totally inaccurate picture of the situation as it is.

---------- Post added at 05:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

I understand that U have ure own reasoning but the basis of the creation of Pakistan for the Muslims of subcontinent to practice their religion Islam independantly and with freedom.To protect Islam in its original shape as it came 1400 years ago.To protect and defend Islam in its every aspect.
Thats why Allama Iqbal gave two nation theory and Mr. Jinnah took the guideline and created a free land for the Muslims of the sub-continent. That was the only reason the Muslims of the sub-continent sacrificed so much and supported Mr. Jinnah selflessly for the creation of our country.

I disagree with both your paragraphs. And I disagree not based on my own reasoning, but onthe reasoning and on the strength of Pakistani liberals. However, I shall not get into the details, as already stated. Some other thread, if you feel necessary.

 

[Spring Onion]

Let me start with my city of origin, since my village of origin is now in a foreign country.

People from the known schools are elite: St. Xaviers, La Martiniere, Don Bosco, Calcutta Boys School, St. Lawrence, St. James, St. Thomas: Loreto House, Diocesan, Queen of the Missions among the anglicised; South Point, Mitra Institution, Hare School, Ballygunge Government High School, Gokhale Memorial (many more besides these) among the older vernacular institutions;

people from the better colleges are elite: Presidency, Scottish Church, St. Xaviers, Maulana Azad, Asutosh, Bethune, Lady Brabourne, Sanskrit College, and their peers; also Jadavpur University, Shibpur Engineering College, Hooghly Mohsin College;

people from the major professional institutes are elite: Calcutta Medical College, National Medical, NilRatan Sircar Medical College, RG Kar Medical College, IIT Kharagpur, IIM Calcutta;

people from the legal and medical professions are elite, including all judges, especially the High Court judges, members of Orr Dignam, Fox and Mundle, Sanderson Morgan, Khaitan and Co., or practitioners at Woodlands, Bellevue, BM Birla Heart Clinic, Ruby Hospital, Peerless Hospital, AMRI, a dozen more, including the teaching hospitals;

people who are members of the Bengal Club, Calcutta Club, Royal Calcutta Golf Club, Royal Calcutta Turf Club, Saturday Club, Tolly Club, CC&FC, Calcutta Swimming Club, Calcutta Rowing Club, Lake Club, Bengal Rowing Club;

people from the well-known business families are elite: the Sir R. N. Mukherjee family, the Birlas, the Goenkas, the Bangurs, the Khaitans, the Jalans, the Sens, the Mitras;

people from corporate circles are elite;directors of the tea, and other well-known Calcutta based companies, like ITC, Tata Steel, Metal Box, ICI, Lipton, Bengal Paints,Jenson & Nicholson, MacNeil and Magor, Mackinnon Mackenzie, Shaw Wallace, NICCO, Stewarts and Lloyds;

people from Eastern Command are elite, all those stationed at Fort William, but also those stationed in Darjeeling and in the Dooars; also the aviators at Kalaikunda and the northern air bases; also the sailors at Calcutta, although their numbers have fallen off sharply;

people from the IAS, IPS and IFS, the IAAS and the Railways are elite;

people from the embassies and consulates are elite, though not Indian;

people from the world of literature, art, film and dance, and singing, theatre are elite.

Does that give you a picture of whom I mean?

.

and if you compare the people from Pakistan from similar elite institutions you will see NO one showers petals on the killer from that elite group either so your or your other fellows' claim about our elites is wrong altogether as well.

 

[Joe Shearer]

If you wish to see the elite of India, you'd do well to see the MP's in the Rajya Sabha.

Rajya Sabha is the truest reflection of India's elite.

Not Lok Sabha but Rajya Sabha.

At a national level, I would agree with this.

On the other hand, it is more than possible for Kalki to build a similar list relating to Chennai, as was done for Calcutta.

 

[Joe Shearer]

and if you compare the people from Pakistan from similar elite institutions you will see NO one showers petals on the killer from that elite group either so your or your other fellows' claim about our elites is wrong altogether as well.

You have to learn, although at an advanced stage of life, not to take the words of one person and put them into the mouths of other persons who actually disagree with the first set.

Of course, it is your habit of using all available weapons, on all possible grounds, even the fanciful and outrageously contrived, that lends your attacks their special charm. Nothing like a polished person gouging and elbowing her opponents; it thrills the crowd, as you will have noticed from observing female mud-fights.

 

[Uchiha]

Once travelling on PIA from UK to Pakistan, I happened to be sitting facing the seat reserved for the cabin crew.
Just before take-off, one of the female air hostess, attractive and looking glamorous as one would expect, took her position in the crew seat. but as the plane began it's run, I witnessed something which indeed put me to shame. The young lady closed her eyes and started reciting Quranic verses until we were air borne.
The Pakistani Army or the society are by no means fanatics, While we may be liberal or moderate, the true Islamic beliefs are never far...... which indeed is our strength.

"Visibly she seemed oblivious to Islamic values" If your Islamic values involve walking around in a tent then clearly, she is the better Muslim. Infact I dont think there is anything wrong with the PIA uniform islamically

 

[muse]

fair(sic)enough! but i get the feeling that the analysis is not complete. we hope that we get a far more 'clear' conclusion from this work. i personally agree with the analysis (being a part of it for some time) and my inter-actions with current mostly junior officers (Lts,Capts and some Majors). the army is aware of this issue and is doing the needful without creating 'waves' within the rank and file. the army remains the country's most organised, disciplined and well respected institution.

Indeed we will be disappointed if we seek conclusive judgements from this piece because as Fair herself says the paper is not meant to be conclusive, indeed, it "social liberalism" (whatever that may mean in Pakistan) which she is measuring and from that inferring items or conclusions for which she cannot present evidence.

To you statement that the Pakistan army remains organized, disciplined and well respected, that may well be, however, that does not tell us anything about the degree of islamist penetration of the armed forces -- what we should take at face value are the overt symbols and slogans of islamist ideology indoctrinated through out the army. Indeed the need to suggest that the army has not been penetrated by Islamists is itself enough to suggest that this is a concern widely shared.

 

[mitth]

Country fact..................

 

[KALKI]

On the other hand, it is more than possible for Kalki to build a similar list relating to Chennai, as was done for Calcutta.

Sir, I just took the easy way out.

 

[Spring Onion]

You have to learn, although at an advanced stage of life, not to take the words of one person and put them into the mouths of other persons who actually disagree with the first set.

Of course, it is your habit of using all available weapons, on all possible grounds, even the fanciful and outrageously contrived, that lends your attacks their special charm. Nothing like a polished person gouging and elbowing her opponents; it thrills the crowd, as you will have noticed from observing female mud-fights.

dont you think you are using fanciful words and shying away from accepting your own claim as wrong

 

[Joe Shearer]

Indeed we will be disappointed if we seek conclusive judgements from this piece because as Fair herself says the paper is not meant to be conclusive, indeed, it "social liberalism" (whatever that may mean in Pakistan) which she is measuring and from that inferring items or conclusions for which she cannot present evidence.

To you statement that the Pakistan army remains organized, disciplined and well respected, that may well be, however, that does not tell us anything about the degree of islamist penetration of the armed forces -- what we should take at face value are the overt symbols and slogans of islamist ideology indoctrinated through out the army. Indeed the need to suggest that the army has not been penetrated by Islamists is itself enough to suggest that this is a concern widely shared.

Country fact..................

Let's just say that this was a welcome datum point of a contrary nature, a soothing touch to brangled nerves.

No denying that there is cause for concern, both for thoughtful but well-intentioned Pakistanis as for Indians - just precisely as there may be cause for concern for both sides at some future date about the innermost thoughts, beliefs and value systems of some of our Indian military men (may that day never come!!).