IS PAKISTAN INTERESTED IN THE TURKISH TFX

[shah1398]

Funds had been problem but not biggest problem, at least until recently, thanks to some good friends of Pakistan, things were manageable in spite of huge corruptions. And funds were allocated for new purchase but used somewhere else: was not a good decision.

I don't know what else could this behavior be named but lack of decision, as they always wait for India to decide and could not decide for themselves what to get, just carried out evaluations and more evaluations.

Now look at the position of PAF in Kargil war to today. It's horribly horrible.

May be this will throw some light at my point.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article2850.html

 

[Irfan Baloch]

IS PAKISTAN INTERESTED IN THE TURKISH TFX? (PART 1

. In fact, the TFX is a Western platform; the principal user is a NATO power (Turkey) and the platform’s technology progenitors are British and West European.

With the above in mind, one could plausibly suggest that the TAI TFX is an option for the PAF. However, this does not necessarily mean that the PAF would take that route. Part-two will examine the viability of the TFX in light with the PAF’s realities and alternative options.
source: http://quwa.org/2016/06/26/pakistan-interested-turkish-tfx-part-1/

which essentially makes the Western subsystems unavailable for Pakistan. giving US or European companies the right to deny such technology .. thus forcing Turkey to build something similar in-house or find a 2nd or 3rd best from other countries that are willing to sell such components.

the American and Western suppliers of high end components have the "end-User" clause in their sale and can ban or bar an intermediary customer or distributor if their item ends up in a country that is currently not favoured by the Western powers. Pakistan doesn't have such expressive and explicit ban but .it gets red flagged and causes undue delay & bickering which can jeopardise this program

 

[graphican]

Pakistan would need 5th gen fighter within the same time-frame when India would get FGFA. With this in view, Turkish program would be late than Pakistan needs.

 

[!eon]

May be this will throw some light at my point.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article2850.html

Thanks, but my point was never F-16s and also funds allocations, which I am talking about was before 2008. F-16s were already in inventory. F-16 was not answer to MKIs of neighbors.

My point was EF, Rafale and J 10 considerations and evaluations and lack of decision making even before that, when Chinese were opting for J 10, leaving FC 1 behind. Now today they have difficulties in integration of components in a design which was made in age of 4 , 4.5 gen fighters.
I can't find valid reasons for sticking with FC 1, when PAF had chance to go along Chinese for J 10, just from start.

 

[Quwa]

which essentially makes the Western subsystems unavailable for Pakistan. giving US or European companies the right to deny such technology .. thus forcing Turkey to build something similar in-house or find a 2nd or 3rd best from other countries that are willing to sell such components.

the American and Western suppliers of high end components have the "end-User" clause in their sale and can ban or bar an intermediary customer or distributor if their item ends up in a country that is currently not favoured by the Western powers. Pakistan doesn't have such expressive and explicit ban but .it gets red flagged and causes undue delay & bickering which can jeopardise this program

Depends on the technology. Yes, Turkey will tap into Western expertise, but the "joint development" is more of Turkey buying that expertise with as much ownership rights as possible, which will enable them to re-export. Some parts of the TFX shouldn't be an issue to acquire, others maybe. That said, the full platform isn't an optimal option for PAF.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Spending money on 4th and 4.5th generation without 5th generation cover is total waste of time and money. There is no comparison between the kill ratio of of Stealth fighter to non stealth fighter. Unless China is willing to involve Pakistan into J-20 program now (not leftover J-31), than Pakistan should join TFX as soon as possible. A billion dollars spend on 5th generation worth more than many billions towards non-stealth fighters.

As per USAF Top brass interview:
F22 to J11D kill ratio: 1 to 30.

Simulated exercise:
F-35 total Air-superiority over F-15 Strike Eagles.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

||••• F-35A Lighting II IOC •••||
>> F-15E STRIKE EAGLES UNABLE TO SHOOT DOWN THE F-35S IN 8 DOGFIGHTS DURING SIMULATED DEPLOYMENT

The U.S. Air Force F-35A fleet continues to work to declare the Lightning II IOC (initial operational capability) scheduled in the August to December timeframe.

Among the activities carried out in the past weeks, a simulated deployment provided important feedbacks about the goal of demonstrating the F-35’s ability to “penetrate areas with developed air defenses, provide close air support to ground troops and be readily deployable to conflict theaters.”

Seven F-35s deployed from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, to Mountain Home AFB, Idaho, to carry out a series of operational tests which involved local-based 4th Generation F-15E Strike Eagles belonging to the 366th Fighter Wing.

In a Q&A posted on the USAF website, Col. David Chace, the F-35 systems management office chief and lead for F-35 operational requirements at ACC, provided some insights about the activities carried out during the second simulated deployment to Mountain Home (the first was in February this year):

“The F-35 recently deployed from Hill to Mountain Home where crews, maintenance and support personnel conducted a number of missions. During that deployment, crews attained a 100 percent sortie generation rate with 88 of 88 planned sorties and a 94 percent hit rate with 15 of 16 bombs on target.
These numbers provide a positive indication of where we are when it comes to stability and component performance.”

“Feedback from the events at Mountain Home will feed into the overall evaluation of F-35 capabilities. The second evaluation will take place in the operational test environment with F-35 mission sets the Air Force intends to execute after IOC. All reports will be delivered in July and feed into the overall F-35 capabilities report. The ultimate goal is to provide a needed capability to the warfighter to execute the mission. It is not calendar-based or event-based.”

“The feedback from unit operators in place today has been very positive for the F-35, not just concerning performance but the ability the aircraft has with other platforms. In particular at Hill, integration with the F-15E (Strike Eagle) has gone very well. We’ve also been demonstrating the ability to put bombs on target. All of that information will be provided to us in the formal IOC readiness assessments.”

The following interesting chart in Image No.2 accompanies the Q&A.It shows some stats about the deployment.

The fourth column shows something interesting: during the exercise, the F-35s were challenged by some F-15Es and suffered no losses.

Even though the graphic does not say whether the F-35s did shoot back at the F-15Es some analysts (noticing also the “pew pew pew” in the chart….) have suggested the JSFs achieved stunning 8:0 kill rate against the Strike Eagle.

However, the “zero losses” may simply mean that the F-35s were able to complete their assigned strikes without being shot down by the aggressors of the Red Air: considered that the F-15Es were probably equipped with the AN/APG-82 AESA radar and the Sniper ATP (Advanced Targeting Pod), the fact that the Strike Eagles performing DCA (Defensive Counter Air) were not able to “find” and/or “engage” the almost-IOC F-35s can be considered a huge achievement for the pricey, troubled 5th generation multirole combat plane.

Actually, this is not the first time the F-35 proves itself able to fly unscathed through a fighter-defended area: not a single Lightning II was shot down during Green Flag 15-08, the first major exercise conducted, more or less one year ago, on the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, California, during which the F-35 flew as main CAS (Close Air Support) provider.

At that time, several analysts claimed the participation of two test aircraft in the exercise was just a PR stunt, since the aircraft was still quite far from achieving a combat readiness required to really support the troops at war.

Let’s see what happens this time…
Article By : By David Cenciotti

 

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

which essentially makes the Western subsystems unavailable for Pakistan. giving US or European companies the right to deny such technology .. thus forcing Turkey to build something similar in-house or find a 2nd or 3rd best from other countries that are willing to sell such components.

the American and Western suppliers of high end components have the "end-User" clause in their sale and can ban or bar an intermediary customer or distributor if their item ends up in a country that is currently not favoured by the Western powers. Pakistan doesn't have such expressive and explicit ban but .it gets red flagged and causes undue delay & bickering which can jeopardise this program

If Pakistan decides to go for TFX than we should make sure that under no circumstances, the "end user" clause is ever appiied to us.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

If Pakistan decides to go for TFX than we should make sure that under no circumstances, the "end user" clause is ever appiied to us.

my innocent poster dear.
this clause is not set by us or Turkey but predefined by American Suppliers on the directive of their export controls set by their State.. this is how they prevent sensitive technology slipping into countries like say China or Iran etc.

even if the Turkish partners somehow mange to get the sale through but .. whenever this news will go out. then the Turkish company & individuals involved in the sale of those components will be blacklisted and fined.

 

[Quwa]

my innocent poster dear.
this clause is not set by us or Turkey but predefined by American Suppliers on the directive of their export controls set by their State.. this is how they prevent sensitive technology slipping into countries like say China or Iran etc.

even if the Turkish partners somehow mange to get the sale through but .. whenever this news will go out. then the Turkish company & individuals involved in the sale of those components will be blacklisted and fined.

BTW do you have an idea of what U.S. components will be used on the TFX?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The model is very "Raw" there is no official image the image floating around is a really bad CGI work

I would imagine it would be 10-15 year project

Rear looks stright from F18

Can Turkey - Pakistan , collaborate , 100%

But we are really 10-15 Year from a functional prototype (7 Years if proper cares goes into project)

If Engines cannot be made in Turkey or Pakistan then the project loses its charm

 

[fox 2]

TF-X will be operational in the 2030's.. You should note that..
And it's not paper project BTW.

 

[cloud4000]

If TFX is a long-term project, who cares where the components are from. 15-years is a long time in international relations. Anything can happen. May be Pakistan's economy will be strong enough and diplomatically adept enough to improve its relations with Western countries so worries about sanctions will be moot.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Depends on the technology. Yes, Turkey will tap into Western expertise, but the "joint development" is more of Turkey buying that expertise with as much ownership rights as possible, which will enable them to re-export. Some parts of the TFX shouldn't be an issue to acquire, others maybe. That said, the full platform isn't an optimal option for PAF.

that is understood
all depends on negotiating power (of Turkey/ Pak vs West) and the money involved (money bends rules) .. and what kind of Military or duel usage technology we are talking about.

please explain the last bit .. I didnt get it

BTW do you have an idea of what U.S. components will be used on the TFX?

sorry i dont. I can only speculate. engine? missiles, radar? who knows.
unless if Turkey decides to build everything from scratch...it will have the access as a NATO ally.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Workable Scenario

• It would make sense that if this is a 7-8 year project Pakistan Invests / Shows interest
  
• 3 Year prototype development and 2-3 Year testing best case
  
• 6 Years is realistic as both countries already make planes

Un workable

• If it is 15-20 year project , it would be a bit long form practical perspective plane would be obsolete by 2030-2035

-> The Jet would be best deployed between Year 2021-2030


For Short Term Prespective

• 40-50 Typhoon (Current Need for next 4-5 years)
  
• Partnership for Turkish project would make sence if first delivery is 6-8 Year 2021 or 2022

 

[CriticalThinker02]

Probability being that power plant, avionics & the armament would be from different countries albeit manufactured under licence in Turkey. Therefore it can’t be 100% sanction proof.

We can still be a part of the program just to acquire an understanding of the latest technologies involved but certainly not adopt it if 100% sanction proof is not guaranteed, we don't want another F-16 debacle 20 or 30 years down the road.

Frankly we should develop this jet on our own with both Turkey and China's help, we were able to do it with JF-17 and our avionic industry prospered because of it, develop this jet from the ground up and let go of the Arab mentality of buying off the shelf, we certainly can do it.