Is Musharaf responsible for the present weak position of Pakistan over IOK?

[Super Falcon]

Without a doubt he almost surrendered kashmir

 

[Inception-06]

Don't you dare.... They've sacrificed everything they had. What more do you want?

View attachment 572743

I was not talking about the sad loss of life , I did write about two lost strategic opportunities, which could have saved a lot of lives, don't be emotional, think rational, you are showing me a picture of a death Kashmiri, to prove what? I can show you every day an image of shaheed Pakistani!

What a completely ignorant and mindless post.



And some fools even rated this post thanks. Ignorance really has no limits....

And you are incompetent to read and learn from your very own history, to learn from failures, to accept failures and to build on that a ration thinking, which lead to new strategies and solutions, which can save a lot of Muslim lives!

Yes and coming back to the "thank rates", I don't need that, these rates just show that there are many Pakistanis to make a change, learn from the past and try to change the future, thank you guys, good luck.

 

[MastanKhan]

Musharf did tried to get in, to the kargil rightly, cause any negociations only happens when ur enemy thinks u r so powerfull tht u can take it by hook and crook, and Thts why vajpai agreed on a solution in kashmir which was to let kashmir a independent state with out any army, pak would be doing the same by pulling out thier troops bt tht all was rattled by Nawaz Sharif when he went begging to Clinton to stop musharf in kargil war and Thts why Nawaz has good relations with modi Jee, under Nawaz Sharif pak didn't had a foreign minster so no hurdle can come for india???
Let's point out a spade?

Hi,

After Kargil---pakistan and india agreed to settle the issue between themselves---.

But the information leaked out---. The saudi ambassador found out---he got the americans involved---once the americans got involved---the indians changed their mind.

 

[batmannow]

Hi,

After Kargil---pakistan and india agreed to settle the issue between themselves---.

But the information leaked out---. The saudi ambassador found out---he got the americans involved---once the americans got involved---the indians changed their mind.

Yea we lost dam chances
Bt right now don't u think, imran khan has the knowledge of what india is going to do when he was meeting king trump?
I think, he has tht, bt he never expected that whole nation will come out showing thier anger, Thts why stupid forighen minster went for Haj Jst writting a letter to UN in the age of androids?

 

[RangeMaster]

I was not talking about the sad loss of life , I did write about two lost strategic opportunities, which could have saved a lot of lives, don't be emotional, think rational, you are showing me a picture of a death Kashmiri, to prove what? I can show you every day an image of shaheed Pakistani!



And you are incompetent to read and learn from your very own history, to learn from failures, to accept failures and to build on that a ration thinking, which lead to new strategies and solutions, which can save a lot of Muslim lives!

Stop this man. You are making it worse.

 

[BATMAN]

When Musharraf granted NRO is valid until today, than why not!
When Musharraf can be responsible for the drone strikes even after his resignation, than why not!

 

[Inception-06]

Stop this man. You are making it worse.

just one more one-liner! no value behind the letters which you tip!

write something which, brings us forward, my point is that war or invasion lead from Pakistan is not a solution as the wars in 1965 and 1999 have shown- don't know what you have understood, but reactivating the plans to arm the Kashmiris and provide them the necessary training and infrastructure!

 

[Dreamer.]

I was not talking about the sad loss of life , I did write about two lost strategic opportunities, which could have saved a lot of lives, don't be emotional, think rational, you are showing me a picture of a death Kashmiri, to prove what? I can show you every day an image of shaheed Pakistani!



And you are incompetent to read and learn from your very own history, to learn from failures, to accept failures and to build on that a ration thinking, which lead to new strategies and solutions, which can save a lot of Muslim lives!

Yes and coming back to the "thank rates", I don't need that, these rates just show that there are many Pakistanis to make a change, learn from the past and try to change the future, thank you guys, good luck.

You know nothing about me or what I am competent of.
You think you are competent? So tell me do you include in that the failures of the traitor musharraf?

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan has lost 1971 war & 90,000 Pakistani POWs had been rotting in Indian jails for more than 6 months. ZAB had no bargaining chips or leverage hence he was negotiating from a very weak position. Indira Gandhi was insisting that Pakistan recognize IOK as undisputed Indian territory. IMHO he did a very good job and managed to bring Pakistani POWs home by only agreeing to the above. The real culprit is the GOP policies of 25 years that gave the impression to the Bengalis that West Pakistanis considered East Pakistan as their colony.

However, everyone is free to have their own opinion, just keep in mind that RSS (parent organization of the BJP) killed Mahatma Gandhi because he was too soft on the Muslims. Also, BJP had won only 2 Lok Sabha Seats in 1984, but after the famous Advani ‘Ratra’ following the Babri Mosque Affair’ of 1992; it won a landslide victory in 1996 elections. BJP, therefore, is essentially a ‘Hindutva’ party and can only win playing the anti-Muslim & with anti-Pakistan rhetoric.

Hi,

Bhutto was the instigator of the war of separation---.

The best solution would have to separate amicably rather than militarily---.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Hon sir,

You can blame Musharraf all you want, but the reason India gives for not accepting mediation is because in the Shimla Agreement of July 02, 1972 signed by Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and President Zulfikar Ali Bhutto of Pakistan it was agreed that:

“ That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peaceful and harmonious relations”.

Full text: https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IN PK_720702_Simla Agreement.pdf

India claims that this agreement supersedes the UN resolutions and hence excludes all third party mediation.

Was Bhutto to blame? Certainly not.

Pakistan has lost 1971 war & 90,000 Pakistani POWs had been rotting in Indian jails for more than 6 months. ZAB had no bargaining chips or leverage hence he was negotiating from a very weak position. Indira Gandhi was insisting that Pakistan recognize IOK as undisputed Indian territory. IMHO he did a very good job and managed to bring Pakistani POWs home by only agreeing to the above. The real culprit is the GOP policies of 25 years that gave the impression to the Bengalis that West Pakistanis considered East Pakistan as their colony.

However, everyone is free to have their own opinion, just keep in mind that RSS (parent organization of the BJP) killed Mahatma Gandhi because he was too soft on the Muslims. Also, BJP had won only 2 Lok Sabha Seats in 1984, but after the famous Advani ‘Ratra’ following the Babri Mosque Affair’ of 1992; it won a landslide victory in 1996 elections. BJP, therefore, is essentially a ‘Hindutva’ party and can only win playing the anti-Muslim & with anti-Pakistan rhetoric.

If Bhutto would have accepted the elections and political defeat then Bangladesh would have formed slowly and without military defeat and humiliation as there was no military solution to East Pakistan. Yahya almost begged him to have a political solution. But Bhutto did not want to kill his political career and let military fight a lost war. He could have saved the humiliation but he changed the political process into military defeat and came out almost a hero and a saviour of West Pakistan and Army. Reality is opposite but some will never see it this way.
Yahya’s reputation as a drunk and womaniser did not help and it was a pity that someone like him and Musharaf rose to the ranks of CinC of the Army. Army needs to look into the promotions system deeply.
All generals knew East Pakistan was lost case because having 2 full and third light divisions at the disposal, air and sea supply cut off, Mukti Bahni well infiltrated into country and little support from locals, it was a lost cause.
Why there was only one airport and one squadron in East Pakistan? Why the decision that East will be defended by the West by opening theaters on West Pakistan borders?
West Pakistanis had decided the fate of East Pakistan becoming Bangladesh long time ago. It just happened to be in 1971 with a disgrace thanks to a lot of decisions and people.
When one quotes History it should be done neutrally and without sentiments.

 

[krash]

Many from their Kashmir, don't even consider our Kashmiris as true Kashmiris since most of our Kashmiri culture and language is closer to Punjabi than theirs.

Incorrect a little bit. It's not about cultural associations but about the actual ethnicities. The overwhelming majority of the people residing in AJK are ethnically non-Kashmiri. Punjabi subgroups such as Gujjars, Jats and Rajputs make up most of the diaspora in AJK. The Sandhus are the second largest group there after the Gujjars but they claim their ancestry from Pashtun tribes instead of Punjab. Ethnic Kashmiris are a small minority in AJK and are mostly found in the northern valleys.

That said, these groups have an equal say and stake in the Kashmir issue, whether ethnic Kashmiris like it or not.

 

[Psychic]

That said, these groups have an equal say and stake in the Kashmir issue, whether ethnic Kashmiris like it or not.

That was my point.

One can"t claim the territory but reject certain ethnicities living within the geographical boundaries of that region.

Yahya’s reputation as a drunk and womaniser did not help and it was a pity that someone like him and Musharaf rose to the ranks of CinC of the Army. Army needs to look into the promotions system deeply.

Musharaf had not done PSO course which is kind of mandatory for army chief. PSO(Principle Staff Officer)
He was I think scheduled to retire and was among the junior most in line, yet Nawaz made him COAS as he thought him to be submissive and passive.

Ayub was another one who was if I remember correctly sacked for the display of cowardice at Burma front. Proved to be an utter failure. Yahya was actually much better professionally when compared to Ayub. He reformed the command structure of the army, held free and fair elections, tried to settle the East Pakistan crisis as sincerely as he could. But during the war, his vacillation in opening the Western front and indecisiveness cost us dearly.

 

[krash]

One can"t claim the territory but reject certain ethnicities living within the geographical boundaries of that region.

I don't think they do though. There is no organised demand or voice in the vale that the non-Kashmiris be left out of Kashmir's decision. In fact, they are pretty adamant that Gilgit Baltistan be included as an integral part of Kashmir as well, which of course the 'Gilgit Baltistan-is' reject.

Their issue is more of the archaic mindset of ethnic superiority. And frankly speaking, that's a story of every ethnic and social group in our region. It's usually a protectionist measure by a society threatened by encroaching outside influences born from lack of education, economic turmoil, social and cultural stagnation or just plain old physical force.

 

[mikaal]

musharaf is the dear daddy of the army so on this forum you wont get anyone who will let anyone blame him on anything what he has done ,,,too many army kiss arse on this forum not many neutral on this forum any more

 

[krash]

Those cowards who surrendered with smiling faces should have been let to rot in the indian jails for the rest of their pathetic lives, there was no need to repatriate them to Pakistan and do a stupid shimla agreement in exchange of those pathetic 90,000 losers.

That is extremely unfair. I understand that it's an emotional issue but I assure you that no one felt what these men fighting in East Pakistan did. If you ever get to meet one you'll understand what I am talking about. These men fought in conditions which they never should have needed to and they fought true to their country. The enemy's accounts of their deeds are a testament to their sacrifices. Calling them cowards is a disservice to the debt we as a nation owe them. Especially after failing them during the war. They were forced to lay down their arms and then left to suffer in Indian jails.