Is Musharaf responsible for the present weak position of Pakistan over IOK?

[Genghis khan1]

@MastanKhan @Signalian

Its also the fault of the Kashmiris, we tried two times to help them, but they never took the chance to join our hands in 1965 war and 1999 war, instead of the Kashmiris always betrayed the Pakistan Army! They now get what they deserve, sound harsh but as you see its the reality and was a question of time!

No offence to Kashmiris, but that's just a part of our history!

1965 Operation Gibralter:

"The local population, however, refused to give any support and in many instances handed over the infiltrators to Indian troops."

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1999 Operation Al-Badre was the last chance for them:


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Bhai app kon si Drug laytay ho? Pakistan (Gen Ayub) handed over all the gains made by Kashmiris in IOK (upto poonch, rajori) for (swap) area lost in Punjab. Technically it was Pakistan who betrayed Kashmirs at the negotiation table. I think there is a whole tread on this topic.

 

[Psychic]

Log issues are more then one can think.

They've deployed one million against a population of around 7 million or so living in the vale.
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nat...on-to-guard-every-inch-of-kashmir-valley.html
" Close to 9.5 lakh personnel from the Army, paramilitary and special forces besides Indian Air Force are guarding every inch of Kashmir Valley amid heightened tensions bet-ween India and Pakistan post the scrapping of Article 370 for Jammu and Kashmir.
While majority of forces were stationed in the Valley, the Centre, over the last month has deployed over 1.75 lakh additional personnel — which is unprecedented in the history of Jammu and Kashmir. "

And our armchair generals think Afghan style insurgency that too without Pakistan's help is feasible.

 

[Sine Nomine]

They've deployed one million against a population of around 7 million or so living in the vale.
https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nat...on-to-guard-every-inch-of-kashmir-valley.html
" Close to 9.5 lakh personnel from the Army, paramilitary and special forces besides Indian Air Force are guarding every inch of Kashmir Valley amid heightened tensions bet-ween India and Pakistan post the scrapping of Article 370 for Jammu and Kashmir.
While majority of forces were stationed in the Valley, the Centre, over the last month has deployed over 1.75 lakh additional personnel — which is unprecedented in the history of Jammu and Kashmir. "

And our armchair generals think Afghan style insurgency that too without Pakistan's help is feasible.

You would bang your head on wall,when you would read about their COIN ops in J&K post Mush help.
Many of them live with sense of back stabbing from us.

 

[Chak Bamu]

The only real threat for Pakistan will occur if Nawaz Sharif Butt and his cronies aren't hanged to death for their crimes.

PMLN and PPP are full of murderous criminals, gangs and mafias. This is the biggest threat to Pakistan's security and as such the biggest weapon for India, even more lethal than any nukes....

The quality of the forum is being degraded by threads like this. The mods need to be more active.

Not hanging Nawaz Sharif and his gang was the only mistake made by Musharraf.

The quality of the forum is degraded by posts like these because you are motivated by fascism and do not have the ability to think beyond a very very narrow mind-set.

I would very much like to know how you came to acquire such extremist views? Who indoctrinated you? Why did you choose to be indoctrinated?

How come the usual critical faculties deserted you while you were absorbing such extremist views?

Did you at least question the premise of this indoctrination? Did you at least question the motives of whoever fed you these views? Did you consider what the indoctrinator had to gain by poisoning your mind?

Was it someone in your family, or a friend you met somewhere? Did your circumstances make it easy for you to adopt such extremist & murderous views?

What is the level of your education? Have you studied history? Have you studied political science? Are you at least aware of the role of a Constitution in national life & psyche? Are you studying or working in a field that prepares you to accept stark binary choices and ignore nuances?

What makes you a fascist?

 

[B.K.N]

The quality of the forum is degraded by posts like these because you are motivated by fascism and do not have the ability to think beyond a very very narrow mind-set.

And quality of Pakistan is degraded by Zardari Nawaz type politicians and they should be punished for this kam az kam phansi to banti hai

 

[Shabi1]

The quality of the forum is degraded by posts like these because you are motivated by fascism and do not have the ability to think beyond a very very narrow mind-set.

I would very much like to know how you came to acquire such extremist views? Who indoctrinated you? Why did you choose to be indoctrinated?

How come the usual critical faculties deserted you while you were absorbing such extremist views?

Did you at least question the premise of this indoctrination? Did you at least question the motives of whoever fed you these views? Did you consider what the indoctrinator had to gain by poisoning your mind?

Was it someone in your family, or a friend you met somewhere? Did your circumstances make it easy for you to adopt such extremist & murderous views?

What is the level of your education? Have you studied history? Have you studied political science? Are you at least aware of the role of a Constitution in national life & psyche? Are you studying or working in a field that prepares you to accept stark binary choices and ignore nuances?

What makes you a fascist?

Learn to listen/read with a pinch of salt. Instead of listening to another persons view point that goes against you asking irrelevant off topic questions reflects bad on your own self.

Unfortunately what the guy said has some basis. Nawaz Sharif is a admitted asset by the Indians and had he not gone to US for a withdrawal, things were really bad for Indian troops in Kargil as their supply lines were cut, we might have had very different dynamics with India. I trust Pakistan Army's version and the news I was following at the time of events and Pakistan had India in a very tough position and literally they were bleeding from a thousand cuts.

I give Nawaz Sharif credit for making motorways and appreciate that but as a patriot he has done more harm to Pakistan in terms of dealings with India and allowing his business interests to hurt the country. And adding insult to injury he admits and is documented on record to lying casually in parliament and in court. His time is up, if anyone wants him as a leader in future I have doubt in their sanity.

To judge PPP you just need to see their current sincerity with people of Sindh and that is their legacy for rest of the country.

The courts should run their course to remove these people from the system but hanging anyone doesnt help Pakistan. What helps will be that we learn from our mistakes and use constructive criticism so no gov in future can repeat the same incompetence. Also pointing out problems is easy but should have viable solutions to offer as well. Unfortunately the limited options in front of Pakistan are all unpopular and tough ones. We can keep brooding on economic hardships caused by current gov but unfortunately either we use loans to boost our currency against dollar artificially which is a short term fix and used by both PPP/PMLN or we swallow the bitter pill, wait out this difficult period and move to market adjustment, they have chosen later. As a Pakistani and alot of us claim ke jaan qurban kardainga lets give them a chance and see the result after 5yrs. If things dont work out we can evaluate the options minus the ones we've tried.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Unfortunately what the guy said has some basis. Nawaz Sharif is a admitted asset by the Indians and had he not gone to US for a withdrawal, things were really bad for Indian troops in Kargil as their supply lines were cut, we might have had very different dynamics with India. I trust Pakistan Army's version and the news I was following at the time of events and Pakistan had India in a very tough position and literally they were bleeding from a thousand cuts.

There are fools, damn fools, and then people who peddle unfounded conspiracy theories. Why should I give you a single minute of my time when you are manifestly ill-informed. Go read a credible source before you tangle with me. I will not engage someone who is oblivious of the facts on the ground or the dynamics involved in the whole fiasco.

Kargil was an unqualified blunder that set Pakistan back and the world stopped caring about what Pakistan has to say about Kashmir. I would trust a thief before I trust Musharraf about his version of what happened. He did irreparable damage to Pakistan by committing one blunder after another. If you do not realize this, then it is your ignorance. I do not care for any of your opinions.

And quality of Pakistan is degraded by Zardari Nawaz type politicians and they should be punished for this kam az kam phansi to banti hai

Please re-educate yourself about law and constitutionalism. Thank you.

 

[undercover JIX]

What is the benefit of keep crying over spilled milk? ab pachtaway kiya howat jab chiryaan chug gain khait...
These threads are just causing more division in already divided Pakistanis and serve no purpose and benefit. Helpful for enemies. it is very easy to criticize the past, but purpose should be only to learn to learn from it and make corrections.....what matters is, what WE do now and this will change our future for better or worst.

I would suggest to Moderators to discourage these type of threads, Musharraf responsible, Zia ........and ultimately Quid e Azam responsible .....No Pakistan no problems.

Aqal nu hath maro and stop living in the past....its time now to wake up...

and learn from your enemy, mo matter what crap Modi is doing whole nation is with him and defending him....and we here fighting with each other..

@Arsalan @Dubious @waz ay qoum kidar pai julni ay?

 

[Arsalan]

We dont have a weak positing on Kashmir and perhaps it is high time we consolidate on any losses. No point in living in the past. Lets plan the future and implement it!