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Is LCA based UCAV possible option for India?

What's wrong about discussing this possibility?

There are multiple problems to deal with, when you are converting a manned aircraft into a remotely controlled one. Let me try and explain with a car example.

The car has 3 pedals. accelerator, brake and gear shift pedal. now, to make it remotely controlled, you have two options.'

a. you replace the entire system
b. you place artificial mechanism which will push the pedals

in an aircraft, you will also need the helmet mounted system. now that will mean placement of cameras for targetting off-bore.

as of now, i am over simplifying it. but hope you got an idea. We do not have a working plane. let alone converting into a remotely controlled ucav.

A ucav built from the ground up, considers a lot of factors. Which is why you today find ucavs in majorly ground targetting. And not in air to air combat. that jump is a major leap.

i remember @gambit discuss this similar in another thread. i am sure @Oscar can also through light on this.
 
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The UAV developments of India is going on in snail pace . No news about Rustom-H , AURA .

And here we are talking about UCAV variant of Tejas .... :disagree:

Let them first finish the manned variant and later we can think about the unmanned variant .


Rustam-2,on which Rustam-H will be built is going to be tested around May 2014..the news was posted here few weeks ago..
 
Hello friends,

The news broke out weeks ago that US is developing UCAV version of F-16.

My question is can India develop such UCAV based on LCA?

Your opinions are welcome.

No, the US has developed a F-16 drone for target practice only, it's called the QF-16 and it's not a UCAV.

While it's certainly possible for India to do such a thing (frankly any nation can do it), it's impractical because India's capability isn't at the level that would make the LCA drone effective against other air targets.

The only nation in the world that can make an effective air to air drone is the US and only because they have the infrastructure in place for it. Certain EU nations and China are building up their infrastructure for similar drones, but India is behind in this regard. Though I have to mention that India has purposed a UCAV drone capable of air to air called the AURA, but as of now it is only a paper plane and India still doesn't have the sat network to make such a drone effective.
 
There are multiple problems to deal with, when you are converting a manned aircraft into a remotely controlled one. Let me try and explain with a car example.

The car has 3 pedals. accelerator, brake and gear shift pedal. now, to make it remotely controlled, you have two options.'

a. you replace the entire system
b. you place artificial mechanism which will push the pedals

in an aircraft, you will also need the helmet mounted system. now that will mean placement of cameras for targetting off-bore.

as of now, i am over simplifying it. but hope you got an idea. We do not have a working plane. let alone converting into a remotely controlled ucav.

A ucav built from the ground up, considers a lot of factors. Which is why you today find ucavs in majorly ground targetting. And not in air to air combat. that jump is a major leap.

i remember @gambit discuss this similar in another thread. i am sure @Oscar can also through light on this.
Maintenance often joke that the pilot is a 'stick actuator'. But while it is a joke and everyone takes it as such, it is also the truth.

When you design a MANNED aircraft, you make provisions to actuate the controls that actuate other mechanisms to change the aircraft's flight conditions: pitch, roll, and yaw.

If you remove the human 'stick actuator', what are you going to replace him with? You can install the replacement 'stick actuator' in the cockpit where the human version normally sits, or you can install the replacement elsewhere in the chain of mechanisms that go from the cockpit all the way back to the hydraulic actuators.

For the F-16 with its fly by wire flight control system (FBW-FLCS) I can already imagine at least two locations.

First...The control stick is connected to several transducers that senses displacement when the human pilot move the stick. I can install some kind of electrical device that will induce voltage differences at those transducers to simulate the human pilot moving the stick. For any aircraft that uses FBW-FLCS, this is technically feasible.

Second...I can go directly down to the FLCS computers themselves. I can tap into the electrical connections and alter the voltages there to simulate signals from the cockpit. For any aircraft that uses FBW-FLCS, this is also technically feasible.

Lastly...I can also go all the way back to the hydraulic actuators themselves and induces commands there. But there would be serious problems with this approach because the entire system is designed to be continuously self monitoring. If there is a displacement at the end of the chain, were there any commands from the start of the chain? If there is a displacement of the hydraulics for a pitch up maneuver but there were no command signals from the cockpit, that would be considered an 'uncommanded maneuver' and the system would flag a fail. How to deal with that flag depends on the original design in the first place, F-16 or Airbus, and that would require an entirely different discussion.

So while I do not know how Boeing did it with the F-16, I am willing to speculate that the replacement 'stick actuator' is either at the cockpit or at the FLCS computers themselves with the cockpit the easiest since the cockpit is supposed to be the source of all commands. Just induce voltages at the stick and rudder pedal transducers, and let the rest of the system believes that there is a human pilot producing those commands.

For US, given the already available fleet of unused F-16, it would be cheaper to turn the F-16 into either a training tool or a full blown weapon that is without a pilot. But for the rest of the world, in the end, it would be financially and technically easier to produce a UCAV from paper. From the start, you set the mission requirements and produce a vehicle from there. Remember that in flight, weight is a penalty so from paper, you will be able to control what goes on to the design.
 
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well well well its lca again :omghaha: what a joke this starfighter is... :woot:what if u can launch it towards mars and conquer it aswell... with its super capabilities it will easily achieve it... :laughcry:
 
^^ if you have nothing to contribute then kindly don't post.
 
^^ if you have nothing to contribute then kindly don't post.

leave them at that bhai they cant do anything else than critisisng every thing cause they cant think positive thats deu to there over dependency for all answers from there 'freinds not masters' & 'al weather freinds' as some pakistani memeber on the forum said couple of days back that "pakistan is an assembli nation" so its not there fault to them R&D are alien words to them engenearing new products and making them better means 'new assembli manuals'
 
^^ if you have nothing to contribute then kindly don't post.

Ignoring his crude comment, he does bring up a point. The LCA is still incomplete, and it's been in development for way too long. India should just focus on this instead of trying to build high tech UCAVs.

Once the LCA comes out of development and is as capable as it's developers claim, then India should shift it's focus, doing it any sooner would be foolish.
 
Ignoring his crude comment, he does bring up a point. The LCA is still incomplete, and it's been in development for way too long. India should just focus on this instead of trying to build high tech UCAVs.

well thanks for opnening owr eyes with your great pearls of wisdom sir dont worry we have learnt & invested so much on/from LCA project that even if its too late or say too little its owr baby and we will not abondon no matter what but one things for sure it will be always feilded against pakistan as second line of defence after M2K & Mig 29s backed by Jags ...i guess you dont have to worry much then :azn:
 
Ignoring his crude comment, he does bring up a point. The LCA is still incomplete, and it's been in development for way too long. India should just focus on this instead of trying to build high tech UCAVs.

Once the LCA comes out of development and is as capable as it's developers claim, then India should shift it's focus, doing it any sooner would be foolish.

That is how long it would have taken anybody with zero relevant scientific and industrial and aerospace experience to come up with a modern 4+ gen fighter. To have expected such a sophisticated aircraft to be developed any sooner by India was folly.

But giving up at the 12th hour would be beyond stupid. As @Capt.Popeye pointed out, this endeavor has given India tremendous knowledge in various fields of meterials and aeronautics. Now getting it into production and gaining industrial experience of production and manufacturing is equally important. Not just for LCA, but also for the future aircrafts we wish to manufacture. As you may know, there will be no off the shelf purchases of aircrafts for India in the future, after the first few Rafales.

And besides, Tejas is still very important for the IAF, to maintain force structure. They need hundreds of light aircrafts, and LCA fits the bill perfectly.
 
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Why would anybody want to convert LCA into UCAV ??? People keep forgetting the logic behind LCA ?LCA was and is never meant to be anything but a low cost single seat light platform. Why people keep deriving new thing every time ?

It would be logical to build a UCAV with stealth characters ( like proposed Aura ) than converting LCA into just UCAV .
 
Maintenance often joke that the pilot is a 'stick actuator'. But while it is a joke and everyone takes it as such, it is also the truth.

When you design a MANNED aircraft, you make provisions to actuate the controls that actuate other mechanisms to change the aircraft's flight conditions: pitch, roll, and yaw.

If you remove the human 'stick actuator', what are you going to replace him with? You can install the replacement 'stick actuator' in the cockpit where the human version normally sits, or you can install the replacement elsewhere in the chain of mechanisms that go from the cockpit all the way back to the hydraulic actuators.

For the F-16 with its fly by wire flight control system (FBW-FLCS) I can already imagine at least two locations.

First...The control stick is connected to several transducers that senses displacement when the human pilot move the stick. I can install some kind of electrical device that will induce voltage differences at those transducers to simulate the human pilot moving the stick. For any aircraft that uses FBW-FLCS, this is technically feasible.

Second...I can go directly down to the FLCS computers themselves. I can tap into the electrical connections and alter the voltages there to simulate signals from the cockpit. For any aircraft that uses FBW-FLCS, this is also technically feasible.

Lastly...I can also go all the way back to the hydraulic actuators themselves and induces commands there. But there would be serious problems with this approach because the entire system is designed to be continuously self monitoring. If there is a displacement at the end of the chain, were there any commands from the start of the chain? If there is a displacement of the hydraulics for a pitch up maneuver but there were no command signals from the cockpit, that would be considered an 'uncommanded maneuver' and the system would flag a fail. How to deal with that flag depends on the original design in the first place, F-16 or Airbus, and that would require an entirely different discussion.

So while I do not know how Boeing did it with the F-16, I am willing to speculate that the replacement 'stick actuator' is either at the cockpit or at the FLCS computers themselves with the cockpit the easiest since the cockpit is supposed to be the source of all commands. Just induce voltages at the stick and rudder pedal transducers, and let the rest of the system believes that there is a human pilot producing those commands.

For US, given the already available fleet of unused F-16, it would be cheaper to turn the F-16 into either a training tool or a full blown weapon that is without a pilot. But for the rest of the world, in the end, it would be financially and technically easier to produce a UCAV from paper. From the start, you set the mission requirements and produce a vehicle from there. Remember that in flight, weight is a penalty so from paper, you will be able to control what goes on to the design.

Just speculating; since this is not really my area of expertise, I'd guess that working from the FLCS maybe the route taken. Again guessing: would that not be the most economic way to work?
 
That is how long it would have taken anybody with zero relevant scientific and industrial and aerospace experience to come up with a modern 4+ gen fighter. To have expected such a sophisticated aircraft to be developed any sooner by India was folly.

But giving up at the 12th hour would be beyond stupid. As @Capt.Popeye pointed out, this endeavor has given India tremendous knowledge in various fields of meterials and aeronautics. Now getting it into production and gaining industrial experience of production and manufacturing is equally important. Not just for LCA, but also for the future aircrafts we wish to manufacture. As you may know, there will be no off the shelf purchases of aircrafts for India in the future, after the first few Rafales.

And besides, Tejas is still very important for the IAF, to maintain force structure. They need hundreds of light aircrafts, and LCA fits the bill perfectly.

What I meant by in development for a long time is that it's behind schedule, at least from what some Indian members have told me. Everything you said I basically agree with.

well thanks for opnening owr eyes with your great pearls of wisdom sir dont worry we have learnt & invested so much on/from LCA project that even if its too late or say too little its owr baby and we will not abondon no matter what but one things for sure it will be always feilded against pakistan as second line of defence after M2K & Mig 29s backed by Jags ...i guess you dont have to worry much then :azn:

My point still stands, fanboyism isn't going to get the LCA project done.
 
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UCAV's by design are "birds of opportunity", all these retarded suggestions of full fledged fighters being converted to UCAV's / UAV's make me nauseous. Ask yourselves these questions:

1. Can a converted LCA->UCAV remain airborne for extended periods? (24hrs+)
2. Can it do it with maintaining minimum footprint, attracting unnecessary attention to itself?
3. Is it cheap to operate?
4. What are the times in-between overhauls / maintenance?

If any of the above is not applicable, let's shut this thread down.
 
What next? An MMRCA based UCAV (whichever the aircraft is going to be) with "Full ToT" ??

Tejas UCAV is a Ridiculous idea at best! I sincerely hope ADA/HAL do not come up with this as another of their proposals.
 
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