Is it war against Islam?

[mujahideen]

Mujahideen, the problem with most of these theories is that they take only a narrow range of facts into consideration.

If you examine the various wars that USA has fought, most of them have been against non-islamic countries.

World war II---against Nazi Germany
Korean War---against communists
Vietnam war---against communists
Gulf war---?? (Salim or someone, can you elaborate?)
Cold war---against Communist Russia
Iraq war---against Saddam Hussein who war anything but an islamic hardliner.

I"ll admit that the Jewish lobby is quite influential in the United states. But that isn't because the US is partial towards the Jews, but because the Jewish community has a number of very talented people in influential positions.

Frankly, Bush's Iran policy is a mystery to everyone...maybe some more qualified members here could enlighten.

Now let me first correct you Saddam was no Islamic hardliner. In fact during his reign Iraq was very secular, and believe me I know this because I know people who went to Iraq during his time. They almost compare Saddam's Iraq to Musharraf's Pakistan, though Pakistan is a bit more democratic and secular in my view. Now the war I am talking about is today's war. Today's war is against Islam they want to change the very nature of Islam, they want to hijack it. Now all things aside you know whats funny, these same people who say that they are civilized have fought the most dangerous wars in history. But again that was then this is now.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

SA, I donot mean to be rude but to understand what he meant in his post you should be a muslim!

Why, please?

 

[Flintlock]

Now let me first correct you Saddam was no Islamic hardliner. In fact during his reign Iraq was very secular, and believe me I know this because I know people who went to Iraq during his time. They almost compare Saddam's Iraq to Musharraf's Pakistan, though Pakistan is a bit more democratic and secular in my view. Now the war I am talking about is today's war. Today's war is against Islam they want to change the very nature of Islam, they want to hijack it. Now all things aside you know whats funny, these same people who say that they are civilized have fought the most dangerous wars in history. But again that was then this is now.

Please re-read my post. I said that Saddam was anything but an islamic hardliner.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Mujahideen,

While religion is a very important aspect and is very central to the Moslem's lifestyle and existence, I am afraid, that is not so in other religions.

I am not aware if you are in Pakistan or elsewhere, but if you should visit Europe or America, you will realise that while there is a lunatic fringe, they are not concerned about religion and do not wear it on their sleeves.

In fact, the lament of Christian Churches is that the Sunday congregation has dropped so badly that the Church is at a total loss.

The Vatican, which is the more orthodox of Churches, worried about the falling figures are now allowing "pagan" ideas to exist side by side with the tenets of Chirstianity - a phenomenon that would be heresy a few decades back!

Therefore, appeasement of the religious bodies in the US, is not, to my mind, a correct surmise.

True and i agree with you... But regardless of new generation of West and US which is becoming Atheist, the Christianity and Jewishism is strong in the west and you just cant see it!

Its like a slow poison for Muslims... They make the world feel what you think but it is not so Salim. The war in the mind and heart will always be against the religion and not the so called influence and land BS.

 

[Flintlock]

If the war was really against Islam, the first place they would have attacked is Saudi Arabia.

 

[mujahideen]

Mujahideen,

While religion is a very important aspect and is very central to the Moslem's lifestyle and existence, I am afraid, that is not so in other religions.

I am not aware if you are in Pakistan or elsewhere, but if you should visit Europe or America, you will realise that while there is a lunatic fringe, they are not concerned about religion and do not wear it on their sleeves.

In fact, the lament of Christian Churches is that the Sunday congregation has dropped so badly that the Church is at a total loss.

The Vatican, which is the more orthodox of Churches, worried about the falling figures are now allowing "pagan" ideas to exist side by side with the tenets of Chirstianity - a phenomenon that would be heresy a few decades back!

Therefore, appeasement of the religious bodies in the US, is not, to my mind, a correct surmise.

I m very glad you bought this point up. To answer your question I was born and raised in the U.S.(New York City). Now it is true that this hate that I call it is something they preach, but then again their are somethings which are meant to be talked about in your house. I will give you an example, today we see the leaders of India and Pakistan hughing and praising each other in public, but when the public leaves they curse each other. Somethings we cant talk about openly but that doesn't mean we dont talk about them.

 

[mujahideen]

Please re-read my post. I said that Saddam was anything but an islamic hardliner.

You are right and I apologize for it.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

If the war was really against Islam, the first place they would have attacked is Saudi Arabia.

True but they also have the Book of GOD and they fear GOD same as us!

They know that Allah will defend his house as promised by him!

Furthermore, thou we the muslims are divided in all sorts of sects and nationalities the christians and the jews know for a fact (as we know each others from centuries ) that only one thing can unite the muslims and stop them raging war from each other and that is to do something against the house of Allah or annouce a war against Islam!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I again have to humbly disagree.

If they were against Islam, why have they not wiped out Islam totally by bombing all Islamic countries and their holy places.

And they have the means to do so.

That would be the end of Islam or would it not?

Obviously, it would be a foolish thing and also it is not the aim!

 

[mujahideen]

If the war was really against Islam, the first place they would have attacked is Saudi Arabia.

Very good question. You are absolutely right if this war was a war against Islam the first place to have been attacked would of been Saudi Arabia. Now you are not aware of the consiquences of attacking Saudi Arabia. This is the one country which can bring the Muslims together and if attacked I can assure you every single Muslim would defend Saudi Arabia. So the plan is take out weaker Muslim countries one by one then go after the big fish. The big fish in my opinion is Pakistan, expelling the Palestinians and then Saudi Arabia. But If Saudi Arabia is attacked Muslims will declare all out war or Jihad.

 

[Flintlock]

Very good question. You are absolutely right if this war was a war against Islam the first place to have been attacked would of been Saudi Arabia. Now you are not aware of the consiquences of attacking Saudi Arabia. This is the one country which can bring the Muslims together and if attacked I can assure you every single Muslim would defend Saudi Arabia. So the plan is take out weaker Muslim countries one by one then go after the big fish. The big fish in my opinion is Pakistan, expelling the Palestinians and then Saudi Arabia. But If Saudi Arabia is attacked Muslims will declare all out war or Jihad.

Alrite, I'll admit that when seen subjectively, your arguments are quite compelling.

There are certain key points that you have missed out:

1. The US is not hostile towards Malaysia and Indonesia, both countries with majority muslim populations.
2. Egypt, Turkey, Saudi Arabia are allies of the US. Saudis are sold huge amounts of american weapons.
3. What explains the fact that muslims in the US are treated as equals and much better than the way non-muslims are treated in Islamic countries?
4. How can you reconcile your theories with the fact that westerners are increasingly becoming non-religious?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

True but they also have the Book of GOD and they fear GOD same as us!

They know that Allah will defend his house as promised by him!

Furthermore, thou we the muslims are divided in all sorts of sects and nationalities the christians and the jews know for a fact (as we know each others from centuries ) that only one thing can unite the muslims and stop them raging war from each other and that is to do something against the house of Allah or annouce a war against Islam!

Who says they fear God as much as you do?

I never feared God. In fact, I think it is silly to fear anything that is good and beneficial to mankind.

For sure I know this except Islam, none have the House of Allah in their books. Therefore, none can be expected to follow that line of spiritual thought.

The fact that you want to impose your ideas is in itself suggestive of one thing - Power over others by making them believe in you. So, it boils down to Power over others! Temporal aspirations over spiritual purity!!! That is the essential theme that drives the clergy of most religions. They want to control the mind of their followers. In fact, it is the clergy with their own motivatad interpretations that is making this world go crazy!

If you are divided into sects and nationalities, is it the fault of Christains, Jews, Hindus or Buddhists? Why this lament? It is your own doing. And what is the point you are trying to make?

Aren't all religions divided into sects and nationalities?

If Islam was even one, do you think things will be different? Nothing wouldbe different since Man understand only one thing - Power. The division in Islam has more to do because of temporal reasons than spiritual.

What is happening in the Islamic world? What are the Talibans and AQ fighting for? If Pakistan is an Islamic country, then why are they fighting in the NWFP and Swat? Because they are lacking exercise and fresh air? They are fighting because of one thing - POWER over others, who may be their own co religionists.

No person can think alike. The Creator has made all creatures including each human with some difference. Therefore, there is nothing that can be ONE, in other words, a Clone!

Therefore, the vision that all would agree with your interpretation of Islam and hence become One, it but a pipedream.

It is better to face reality and be a pious person yourself and await your Fate on Judgement Day!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Mujahideen,

We are going to commit the sin of skin , some more than the others---some will feel the shame and seek the forgiveness of our Lord others will care less---.

What I been writing over here is the reading and the meaning of Qura'an it may not be as you understand it, but it is as I do and lot of others on this board as well.

What I am saying over here and over the years is that the muslim and islam are two differnt things---they are not the same---it is a misnomer when stated as such---muslims have chosen a path of their own making---people are taking it wrong---indeed the muslims need the enlightenment and specially true for pakistani muslims--we really practise a very differnt kind of islam only unique to us than a lot of other muslim nations.

What you need to understand is that the threshold of decency would change over the period of time---when there will be people fornicating in public without shame---indeed the person saying please go behind a partiton could indeed be a momin---for it will take a lot of courage and strength to say those words. It is the level of shame, humility and morality in a certain individual at a given time that would determine his or hers standing in front of his maker.

For you 80's is going back 20 years when you got the definition of JIHAD---but before that there was a different lifetime---for me life goes back another 30 years when definition of JIHAD was a battle against the desires of the soul agianst that of mind and skin---where everyday struggle against your charging desires and demonizing passions was the war which was known as the JIHAD against the self, an everyday battle against the forces of passion and sin---.

You seem very young---you would not know firsthand what pakistan had to offer in the 60's and the 70's. We used to have genuine strip clubs in karachi and lahore. Any and every kind of skin was available at these clubs---Flatteis, Horse Shoe, Columbus, Metropole hotel, Hilton, holiday in, Continental all thes ehotels in karachi and Flattis in lahore would have shows seven nights a week.

As a matter of fact I saw a copy of PENTHOUSE from the mid 70's---I was going to karachi university and living in the dorms---it had a cartoon in it---the cartoon showed a sheikh---instead of flying to paris---to party---the sheikh was flying to karachi to have a good time.

The meaning of jihad got hijacked during the afghan invasion to get to a certain result. The enforcers thought that after the job got done---people will have the sense to revert back to its original meaning---they will have the common sense to realize that the usage of that term was to their benefit and nothing else. A new day---different horizons.

We pakistanis have been lied to for a long time that america wanted to kick russia out of afghanistan---america could care less---it had no intention of getting involved---it was pakistan who tricked america in getting in the middle of the things----read Charlie Wilson's war or check out the movie. America became an unwitting partner in a war that they didnot start. When that war ended, the different factions turned upon each other in afghanistan---Saddam invaded kuwait---these afghans who's skin was saved by the americans turned against them regarding the invasin of kuwait---they aligned themsleves with Saddam against the americans---oh jeez didnt even have the time to thank their saviours----Jihad again got hijacked by the afghans---anybody and everybody who wanted it, took it and made a personalized version of it.

I don't know if you are still in college or working. Do you work for a corporation or for your dad---what is your work experience---what is your experience of life---have you lead a protected life---what kind of work do you do---are you wellfed or did yoy face extreme hardships growing up---in what stage of life are you in---are you independent---dependant on your family for a roof on top of your head---have kids and can hardly support them---you know why I am asking you these questions---because the meaning of the Qura'an---you will understand differntly under differnt circumstances. Take it from someone who has been through it.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Logic of God as their creator in real books of Christian and the Jews are the same. By fear, one means, to accept God as creator of all beings and the Master of All.

Rest of your post needs not to be discussed as its unlikely that your Atheistic beliefs will be hindered by what ever i share in response to your understanding of Islam and other religions.

 

[Flintlock]

Logic of God as their creator in real books of Christian and the Jews are the same. By fear, one means, to accept God as creator of all beings and the Master of All.

Rest of your post needs not to be discussed as its unlikely that your Atheistic beliefs will be hindered by what ever i share in response to your understanding of Islam and other religions.

PtbP, logic and reason has no religion.

I'm sure that your explanation of the war against islam can be spelled out in purely empirical terms.

If one has to be a muslim to understand your arguments, then IMO, your arguments are flawed.

I"m not going to comment any further.

Thanks