Is China a really good friend of Pakistan? Excellent analysis

[KaiserX]

China is a growing super power. They will have to align with Pakistan more in order to keep India bogged down in the west. The last thing they want is India being occupied by QUAD/NATO forces as India is the only hostile land border with China.

 

[Adonis]

Nothing was done for free. China earns vast sums of money from pakistan. Also both countries need each other. We also has a common enemy in India and America

That 'vast sums' of money are not enough to break-even economically for China...and hence it has stopped putting in more money in Pakistan.

Also, there is nothing called "Enemy"...... the world prefers to call it as "Adversary"...as adversaries can be allies and vice versa....

China and US were partners and had very healthy relations till late 1990s...in fact rise of China was fuelled by investment from US. Similarly India and China were so called "bothers" in 1950s...even now they have very healthy trade relations.......Pakistan was US ally till Musharraf's era........What I want to highlight is countries change themselves, their policies and animosities towards other, based on common interests........but for Pakistan......we don't change ourselves...We are blinded by religious hatred, corrupt elites, 'Me first' attitude, Hypocrisy laced mindset and hence we have permanent enemies and hardly any friends.

 

[phrozenflame]

International relations are based on self-interest only. The sooner people realize it, the better. No one gives a shit about 1. what you think 2. Ummat 3. haq

Everything is about economy and market.

 

[Trango Towers]

That 'vast sums' of money are not enough to break-even economically for China...and hence it has stopped putting in more money in Pakistan.

Also, there is nothing called "Enemy"...... the world prefers to call it as "Adversary"...as adversaries can be allies and vice versa....

China and US were partners and had very healthy relations till late 1990s...in fact rise of China was fuelled by investment from US. Similarly India and China were so called "bothers" in 1950s...even now they have very healthy trade relations.......Pakistan was US ally till Musharraf's era........What I want to highlight is countries change themselves, their policies and animosities towards other, based on common interests........but for Pakistan......we don't change ourselves...We are blinded by religious hatred, corrupt elites, 'Me first' attitude, Hypocrisy laced mindset and hence we have permanent enemies and hardly any friends.

Then change yourself. You wife and kids and encourage others. Within a couple of generations there will be change.

 

[Adonis]

Then change yourself. You wife and kids and encourage others. Within a couple of generations there will be change.

Your quote applies more on you than me...you are living in Pakistan...You need to change yourself, your wife and kids....and within couple of generations (if not sabotaged by your establishment (Mullah-Military nexus) and power hungry and corrupt politicians)...InshaAllah, there will be a change.

My generations have already changed..for good.

 

[Paul2]

Okay hear me out. During the cold war the west regarded USSR as the primary threat. The threat was overhyped but fact is America was paranoid about Red Russia. As long as you had a border or a angle on USSR you were hot commodity and could turn that into dollars just by signing up with Uncle Sam. This is exactly what a bankrupt Pakistan did in 1950s. And before you know it the largest military and economic aid flow began to Pakistan.

• PAF was made into a mighty airforce with decade free of cost. US made state of the art fighters liuke F104-Starfighters arrived, 100s of Sabres, radars, new airbases and training of pilots all free of cost.
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• PAk army was turned into a modern mechanized army from just a left over of WW2 by recieving Patton tanks, artillery and entire new divisions were raised. New cantoments like Karian were built all again free of cost. Lot of the construction was done by US Army Corp of Engineers.
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• Billions poured into new projects for roads, dams [think Mangla, think Tarbela, think Warsak], power lines and a brand new shiny capital called Islamabad. This was greater in real terms then CPEC today.
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• Industry recieved huge input and began flourishing fueled by US dollar inpouts. Education institutes were laid like SUPARCO etc and the nurseries that would produce the nuclear talent for future nuke programme under US 'Atoms for Peace' programme.

All this was premised on opposition to the Red threat - primarily USSR but secondarily included China. While this was going on India was milching the Red Russkies. However when China tangled with India and then thrashed them the Americans got rattled. The Chinese never intended to invade India but New Delhi used the American paranoia to it advantage.

Dr Moeed mentions this. Not many people know this but as China was giving the Indians thrashing the rattled West launched one of the largest military aid programmes in history free of cost. Massive scale aid poured in emergency mode to 'save India' from Red Chinese. It included billions of dollars, tanks, artillery.

To give you some examples. India recieved huge number of British Centurion tanks and Fench Amx tanks - the former probably the best tank of the era and superior to the Patton. Hawker Huntera and Gnats also arrived in huge numbers.

This massive arming of india alarmed Pakistan which referanced that these platforms would be used against it and not the Chinese in the high Tibetan pleateu. Sure enough when Pakistan attacked in 1965 it ran into the very arms the west had gifted India as protecton from Red China.

Again as Dr Moeed mentions people and particularly Indians always point to Pakistan as being the biggest recipient of western aid. Truth is India has recieved far greater aid then Pakistan from USA.

Furthermore when Pakistan attacked India in 1965 USA was not happy precisely because of the Chinese factor. Because of the paranoia of the Reds the Americans did not want India to be weakened as in their estimation it could fall victim to Red China.

All that aid they provided to India after 1962 was to address the threat from Red China and thus were not too happy to see all the aid they had given to Pakistan be used to weaken India. The driver behind this all was the China factor.

Of course we can't blame Chinese for this. Our leaders should have calculated the strategic consequences and worked up all the possible scenarios to address this. A nuanced policy should have been developed to handle this complicated dynamic.

Summary: line. Firstly without China factor India would not have recieved the massive arms supply which was used to blunt Pakistan in 1965. Secondly without China factor I doubt USA would have taken such harsh action as sanctioning supplies to Pakistan which it did because it did not want India to be weakened.

Exactly, but you forgot to mention one surname: Bhutto.

Bhutto was to Americans like a rotten lemon

.in fact rise of China was fuelled by investment from US

False, US investments were drop in a bucket in comparison to Japanese, Korean, Honkies, and Taiwanese. They had like 10x-20x of what US invested.

 

[airmarshal]

Moeed is always very insightful. His analysis is always without sentiment, political leaning or agenda. These traits are completely absent in Pakistani media.

You could agree or disagree on his analysis.

 

[Paul2]

the 1972 visit was actually planned in 1971 when Henry Kissinger visited Pakistan

In fact, just a few months more, and it could've never happened, because Nixon would've been watergated by then.

No country is another country’s “friend”. It’s all about interests. If tomorrow our interests go against Chinese interests than they’ll be our biggest enemy

Ask a question: can India ever be a lesser enemy, than Pakistan be a lesser friend?

My fear was Modi-Xi combo having the highest probability of turning that around of all previous Chinese/Indian leaders, but no, it didn't happen.

What has happened in Mahabalipuram was largely a fluke, without any strategic/political side involved, as meetings were held without Xi's mishu/advisers/staff. Pretty much it was decided by their person to person mechanics.

 

[Trango Towers]

Your quote applies more on you than me...you are living in Pakistan...You need to change yourself, your wife and kids....and within couple of generations (if not sabotaged by your establishment (Mullah-Military nexus) and power hungry and corrupt politicians)...InshaAllah, there will be a change.

My generations have already changed..for good.

See there is the problem..always blame others. Never do anything. Sad isn't it?
Or you are too old now

 

[Adonis]

See there is the problem..always blame others. Never do anything. Sad isn't it?
Or you are too old now

See there is even bigger problem...not accepting your faults, always living in denial and then blame others for your conditions.......sad isn't it?
or you are too naive to comprehend?

 

[Trango Towers]

See there is even bigger problem...not accepting your faults, always living in denial and then blame others for your conditions.......sad isn't it?
or you are too naive to comprehend?

Lool yet its you that complain...when i said fix yourself...you twisted and turned like a snake..now go away...you are a waste. A loser a waffle. You took my points and couldn't add so reverted them. That's what cheats do. I bet your family are fed up of your bullshit. That's why you said it's too late for you because you are an old fart who is useless. Welcome to ignore.

 

[Adonis]

Lool yet its you that complain...when i said fix yourself...you twisted and turned like a snake..now go away...you are a waste. A loser a waffle. You took my points and couldn't add so reverted them. That's what cheats do. I bet your family are fed up of your bullshit. That's why you said it's too late for you because you are an old fart who is useless. Welcome to ignore.

You are a certified looser....... trash of the earth......You bet about me?.....better bet about yourself......an Elite Member who survives on black humour and picking on others without much to contribute.....on bold above, it is the typical nature of looser like you...to assume things and say on behalf of the other even if it was never said .... anyways.....Nice to know you.

 

[HAIDER]

China is an excellent friend, but issue on our end .. we are corrupt and think about short term gain.. make money and move to a foreign account ..then move your children ..later disappear...
China is an Asian hub of technology,,, a lot can be learnt.