China 🇨🇳 and Pakistan 🇵🇰 special relationship

https://www.eurasiareview.com/27032023-china-pakistan-special-relationship-an-alliance-changing-geopolitical-picture-of-asia-analysis/

 

[nahtanbob]

But a new paradigm is emerging in Eurasia--a China dominant one. I foresee a detente between India and Pakistan brokered by China and Russia. I don't think Indians are stupid enough to annoy both China and Russia at the same time.

Russia's utility to India diminishes if they can supply sophisticated weapons

 

[Signalian]

If a society values a army soldier is more valuable than a doctor or engineer then the nation’s psyche need a revamp…End of the day for a nation an army should he held at the same esteem as a scientist or an engineer….

Army soldier shows up at time of need be it war or peace or calamity or medical or engineering.

 

[Kaniska]

Army soldier shows up at time of need be it war or peace or calamity or medical or engineering.

It is pure BS….It is their job to protect the country in the same way it is job of the doctors to save a patient…Again, it is applicable for all armies in the world..

 

[Meengla]

If a society values a army soldier is more valuable than a doctor or engineer then the nation’s psyche need a revamp…End of the day for a nation an army should he held at the same esteem as a scientist or an engineer….

Yes.
And to an extent I do appreciate Imran Khan's voice in raising awareness about the 'establishment'. I just disagree with the timeline for the changes and I don't think unless viable alternatives are in place, Pakistanis should throw out the only stabilizing force in Pakistan.

 

[Kaniska]

Russia's utility to India diminishes if they can supply sophisticated weapons

It is China that will force India to accept LOC and IB and close the Kashmir chapter for ever..

 

[Signalian]

It is pure BS….It is their job to protect the country in the same way it is job of the doctors to save a patient…Again, it is applicable for all armies in the world..

BS got you maybe In reality it’s not for the public.

In Pakistan, the military is the first one to reach the public. It’s not military’s job to make roads, put medical camps, send in forces for relief efforts etc but it becomes military job since civil defence is weak where as military can say no citing duty on national security agenda as foremost and cannot spare soldiers thus burdening federal paramilitary forces to do all tasks internally.

 

[Kaniska]

Yes.
And to an extent I do appreciate Imran Khan's voice in raising awareness about the 'establishment'. I just disagree with the timeline for the changes and I don't think unless viable alternatives are in place, Pakistanis should throw out the only stabilizing force in Pakistan.

I agree with you…IK and his intent to bring positivity to politics in Pakistan is a blessing for you…But he need to learn to work with all stakeholders rather than going against all institutions in your country..

 

[Meengla]

However, India is now being towed from out ends - AUKUS and Russia.

India has never fully subscribed to Washington's worldview. Indians, per my understanding, are very cautious people. "Banya" or "docile Hindus" or "mercantile" in nature. And Indians must have seen how Ashraf Ghani was recently dumped--and rightly so. Indians know that geography counts a lot and that a Russia/China combine--and there is no doubt about that now--is something hard to ignore.
I will be absolutely surprised if India goes with AUKUS or something like that. You can start to gauge India's stance as you watch the American Main Stream Media....

Russia's utility to India diminishes if they can supply sophisticated weapons

You meant 'they can't' ?

 

[Kaniska]

BS got you maybe In reality it’s not for the public.

In Pakistan, the military is the first one to reach the public. It’s not military’s job to make roads, put medical camps, send in forces for relief efforts etc but it becomes military job since civil defence is weak where as military can say no citing duty on national security agenda as foremost and cannot spare soldiers thus burdening federal paramilitary forces to do all tasks internally.

In Pakistan, it happened because your institutions did not perform their duty. And your army happily filled the void as it suits them to be a messiah in front of public…
If your army is so interested in nation building, they should have assisted your institution such as disaster recovery or health or something in similar are to be competent rather than allowing those institutions to be ineffective.

 

[Signalian]

India has never fully subscribed to Washington's worldview. Indians, per my understanding, are very cautious people. "Banya" or "docile Hindus" or "mercantile" in nature. And Indians must have seen how Ashraf Ghani was recently dumped--and rightly so. Indians know that geography counts a lot and that a Russia/China combine--and there is no doubt about that now--is something hard to ignore.
I will be absolutely surprised if India goes with AUKUS or something like that. You can start to gauge India's stance as you watch the American Main Stream Media....


You meant 'they can't' ?

It’s India’s location rather than baniya mindset

India knows it can’t rely on USA/Australia etc standing thousands of miles away while Pakistan and China sit next door

In Pakistan, it happened because your institutions did not perform their duty. And your army happily filled the void as it suits them to be a messiah in front of public…
If your army is so interested in nation building, they should have assisted your institution such as disaster recovery or health or something in similar are to be competent rather than allowing those institutions to be ineffective.

Then it’s the institutions fault, not military’s.

Military can say NO just like it said NO to election duty so yeah it’s not military’s job, it’s military’s good will, period !

 

[Kaniska]

It’s India’s location rather than baniya mindset

India knows it can’t rely on USA/Australia etc standing thousands of miles away while Pakistan and China sit next door

India do not need to depend on US to manage Pakistan.But we need US and West on our side if China use Pakistan against us to play its dirty game.

 

[Signalian]

It saddens me to read your post. Sounds like another PTI fanboi who repeats the 'establishment' part ad nauseum because the Aristotle of Pakistan Mr. Imran Khan, the born again Muslim, started saying that barely a year ago. Have some originality of thought! A philanthropist and a financially clean person doesn't make one a great leader necessarily.

For your info, the same 'Establishment' had Pakistan to be a very prosperous country well into Pakistan's history into the 1980s when compared with the neighbors. The same 'Establishment' made Pakistan's defense, and, yes, with a lot of American help, to be so strong that a fledgling nation born in 1947 with potentials like the modern Afghanistan has been able to face off a far stronger enemy till this day.

The perks and the privileges the Pakistan military enjoys are not unique to Pakistan. In America too the Military Industrial Complex enjoys immense privileges to the detriment of ordinary Americans and I think there are other countries where some form of uniformed or civilian oligarchy enjoys great privileges. BUT countries don't get destroyed from them.

A country gets destroyed when there are internal divisions, when there are 'revolutions' when the revolutionaries are the same old--as in case of PTI, a country gets destroyed when all its institutions start to fight against each other, which is happening in Pakistan now, thanks in no small measure to a power hungry Imran Khan who was assured to win the next elections anyway.

Gravely damaging the Pakistani 'establishment' without a viable alternative would put Pakistan in grave danger akin to what happened in some Middle Eastern countries in the name of 'revolutions' and Indians are eagerly waiting for the moment to arrive. Do you think Imran Khan is that smart and do you think there will be a PTI if, God forbids, a bullet takes him out??? Oh you fools!!!

But then I am probably playing the proverbial flute to the buffaloes here. There are none more blind than those who refuse to see!

Good post, excellent points.

 

[Meengla]

That is true..I can see it happening sooner than expected to happen…Most probably, LOC will be converted to IB and some kind of fancy special status will be provided to Jammu and kashmir by Delhi to close the Kashmir chapter

Correct.
President Pervez Musharraf was the most anti-India leader of Pakistan after Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. It's just not me but I have seen others also said that (well, outside of this forum!). But after the folly of Kargil in 1999, he realized that even the so-called 'Chenab Formula' was not attainable by Pakistan. So the war-hawk Musharraf became a dove of peace and hence the Musharraf-Manmohan dialog over Kashmir. The most shocking part in that dialog was that Musharraf, and implicitly the Pakistani 'establishment', agreed with the LoC=IB with some face saving compromises. That was never ever considered in Pakistan but that was always an option in India despite Indian grandstanding.

A new world is being shaped in front of us and being shaped rapidly. Eurasia is the center of human activities. Major Eurasian wars always shaped the course of human history. So don't be too surprised if surprises come up tomorrow.

India do not need to depend on US to manage Pakistan.But we need US and West on our side if China use Pakistan against us to play its dirty game.

You have an exaggerated fear of an exhausted Pakistan.

 

[Signalian]

I don't think we're on the same page ... perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Anyhow, it has nothing to do with any of the above...
Pakistan currently sits pretty as spoiler in the region. It's geography allows that... the fact that no-one trusts it's political or military establishment is because it has left nothing coherent... no established goals, direction or focal point. No political ideology governs it's role, except a rentier mentality. And rightfully so... since 1947, it's establishment has sought wedge issues to fatten itself on foreign dime... which is why, no reforms were ever needed nor consequences felt. The result has been that the establishment has been able to throw money at the problems and hide them under the rug. The consequences were only left for the common man. One who kept losing, forever running behind a promise, politicians played their part and kept the circus alive.
The consequences that are only becoming apparent are indifference and/or inability of U.S to prop up the current regime. To keep the tap open... with central banks raising interest rates and tapering of QE, funds are harder to come by, CSFs were blocked during Trump administration and after U.S pulling out of Afghanistan there wasn't or isn't a need left of a rentier regime. It is sort of back to 90's in that regard, but worse!
To revive, interest, Pakistan must invoke higher stakes, seek new benefactor, WOT redux?, Russia?, China?, India? of course Iran and Afghanistan.
again, Pakistan sits pretty as a spoiler. Seeking a role. It hasn't reconciled nor built anything meaningful. It's institutional/political umbilical cord remains connected with its western masters and systems implemented vicariously, i.e the installed matrix, still govern it's masses moreover are the primary source of revenue(as adopted and perceived). Therefore, it's comparison remains with Ukraine whose services only serve limited western interest of disrupting and destabilizing Russia. One of the geographical choke points in Eurasia, alongside Azerbaycan, Egypt and Turkiye!
Of course not everything plays out simultaneously... but they are prepped accordingly. In this equation people are meaningless except geographic pawns. Their utility is decided as needed.

Their is no evolution or revolution debate here... people are only shepherded from one distraction to another... new and superficial wedge issues created as desired. People when they've lost clue of what actually matters to them, like a blind man walking heedless...
so, debating that is aimless. Pakistan is nowhere near that...

So, back to where we started... who will it's elites work for or against both foreign or domestic is yet to be seen... in the meantime expect more ruckus, commotion and circus.

The 1965 war was a turning point for Pakistan as that’s when Pakistan military leadership connected close to China as it faced embargo from USA. Where as, it was after end of Musharraf’s tenure that Pakistan looked towards China for majority of defence needs while the craving for F-16 diminished.

One war to another, military was instrumental in bringing China close to Pakistan due to defence needs.

 

[nahtanbob]

It’s India’s location rather than baniya mindset

India knows it can’t rely on USA/Australia etc standing thousands of miles away while Pakistan and China sit next door

BS the only country that is helping Ukraine is America