China 🇨🇳 and Pakistan 🇵🇰 special relationship

https://www.eurasiareview.com/27032023-china-pakistan-special-relationship-an-alliance-changing-geopolitical-picture-of-asia-analysis/

 

[nahtanbob]

the only problem is that India-USA partnership would dwarf it

 

[Crimson Blue]

In the words of PML(N) aligned Maleeha Lodhi:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1641501294828347393

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Disruptor/Spoiler...

Unable/unwilling to lead, Pakistan has set itself up, just like a true parasite, a spoiler. A pawn for the highest bidder... with it's military acting more like a cartel and more interested in maintaining their business concerns... will not want to spoil the gravy train.
Whomsoever pays more...

Roping in the uninitiated youth, with euphoria, patriotism set in glory and/or martyrdom, exploits their exuberance and finally coercing them with title and pay. Did I miss anything?
It is a slow moving Ukraine in action being brought to the slaughterhouse, with compromised polity and masses mired in theater.

Sadly, the entanglements have grown so complex, still gaining momentum and traction, that no corrections can be assumed until it reaches its logical conclusion. And, at this point only one thing that promulgates a constant, agreed to, by all concerned, that Pakistan is reliably, unreliable!

So if it sits neat, stirs the pot, destabilizes or puts gun to it's head. That show has already been seen... color me unimpressed!

Do Chinese still want to make a lemonade out of this lemon? yet to be seen...

 

[Meengla]

Disruptor/Spoiler...

Unable/unwilling to lead, Pakistan has set itself up, just like a true parasite, a spoiler. A pawn for the highest bidder... with it's military acting more like a cartel and more interested in maintaining their business concerns... will not want to spoil the gravy train.
Whomsoever pays more...

Roping in the uninitiated youth, with euphoria, patriotism set in glory and/or martyrdom, exploits their exuberance and finally coercing them with title and pay. Did I miss anything?
It is a slow moving Ukraine in action being brought to the slaughterhouse, with compromised polity and masses mired in theater.

Sadly, the entanglements have grown so complex, still gaining momentum and traction, that no corrections can be assumed until it reaches its logical conclusion. And, at this point only one thing that promulgates a constant, agreed to, by all concerned, that Pakistan is reliably, unreliable!

So if it sits neat, stirs the pot, destabilizes or puts gun to it's head. That show has already been seen... call me unimpressed!

Do Chinese still want to make a lemonade out of this lemon? yet to be seen...

You are too harsh on Pakistan.
Yes, the military's role in Pakistani politics should be curtailed and will be curtailed over time. It had happened before in the 1970s when ZAB was the Prime Minister. It took the debacle of 1971 for the military to concede power but it happened. But what's unfolding in Pakistan is far worse for the military's powers and will have long lasting effects.
Also, people need to realize that the Pakistani military is the only force capable of managing the external and internal threats, however imperfect that maybe. You remove them and you will have a chaos never seen before. Political 'evolution' is needed; not 'revolution'.

And please don't compare Pakistan with Ukraine. Ukraine is being destroyed while it will take only ten years of good governance and stability in Pakistan to bounce back.

About the topic, I believe, with Pakistan's dependence on trade with the West, Pakistan is unable to have a more independent foreign policy. But there are tectonic shifts happening in geopolitics and so who knows next?? We may even see a détente between Pakistan and India, brokered by the Eurasian countries and that will solve Pakistan's number one problem: Being a 'security state'.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

You are too harsh on Pakistan.
Yes, the military's role in Pakistani politics should be curtailed and will be curtailed over time. It had happened before in the 1970s when ZAB was the Prime Minister. It took the debacle of 1971 for the military to concede power but it happened. But what's unfolding in Pakistan is far worse for the military's powers and will have long lasting effects.
Also, people need to realize that the Pakistani military is the only force capable of managing the external and internal threats, however imperfect that maybe. You remove them and you will have a chaos never seen before. Political 'evolution' is needed; not 'revolution'.

And please don't compare Pakistan with Ukraine. Ukraine is being destroyed while it will take only ten years of good governance and stability in Pakistan to bounce back.

About the topic, I believe, with Pakistan's dependence on trade with the West, Pakistan is unable to have a more independent foreign policy. But there are tectonic shifts happening in geopolitics and so who knows next?? We may even see a détente between Pakistan and India, brokered by the Eurasian countries and that will solve Pakistan's number one problem: Being a 'security state'.

I don't think we're on the same page ... perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Anyhow, it has nothing to do with any of the above...
Pakistan currently sits pretty as spoiler in the region. It's geography allows that... the fact that no-one trusts it's political or military establishment is because it has left nothing coherent... no established goals, direction or focal point. No political ideology governs it's role, except a rentier mentality. And rightfully so... since 1947, it's establishment has sought wedge issues to fatten itself on foreign dime... which is why, no reforms were ever needed nor consequences felt. The result has been that the establishment has been able to throw money at the problems and hide them under the rug. The consequences were only left for the common man. One who kept losing, forever running behind a promise, politicians played their part and kept the circus alive.
The consequences that are only becoming apparent are indifference and/or inability of U.S to prop up the current regime. To keep the tap open... with central banks raising interest rates and tapering of QE, funds are harder to come by, CSFs were blocked during Trump administration and after U.S pulling out of Afghanistan there wasn't or isn't a need left of a rentier regime. It is sort of back to 90's in that regard, but worse!
To revive, interest, Pakistan must invoke higher stakes, seek new benefactor, WOT redux?, Russia?, China?, India? of course Iran and Afghanistan.
again, Pakistan sits pretty as a spoiler. Seeking a role. It hasn't reconciled nor built anything meaningful. It's institutional/political umbilical cord remains connected with its western masters and systems implemented vicariously, i.e the installed matrix, still govern it's masses moreover are the primary source of revenue(as adopted and perceived). Therefore, it's comparison remains with Ukraine whose services only serve limited western interest of disrupting and destabilizing Russia. One of the geographical choke points in Eurasia, alongside Azerbaycan, Egypt and Turkiye!
Of course not everything plays out simultaneously... but they are prepped accordingly. In this equation people are meaningless except geographic pawns. Their utility is decided as needed.

Their is no evolution or revolution debate here... people are only shepherded from one distraction to another... new and superficial wedge issues created as desired. People when they've lost clue of what actually matters to them, like a blind man walking heedless...
so, debating that is aimless. Pakistan is nowhere near that...

So, back to where we started... who will it's elites work for or against both foreign or domestic is yet to be seen... in the meantime expect more ruckus, commotion and circus.

 

[Meengla]

I don't think we're on the same page ... perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Anyhow, it has nothing to do with any of the above...
Pakistan currently sits pretty as spoiler in the region. It's geography allows that... the fact that no-one trusts it's political or military establishment is because it has left nothing coherent... no established goals, direction or focal point. No political ideology governs it's role, except a rentier mentality. And rightfully so... since 1947, it's establishment has sought wedge issues to fatten itself on foreign dime... which is why, no reforms were ever needed nor consequences felt. The result has been that the establishment has been able to throw money at the problems and hide them under the rug. The consequences were only left for the common man. One who kept losing, forever running behind a promise, politicians played their part and kept the circus alive.

It saddens me to read your post. Sounds like another PTI fanboi who repeats the 'establishment' part ad nauseum because the Aristotle of Pakistan Mr. Imran Khan, the born again Muslim, started saying that barely a year ago. Have some originality of thought! A philanthropist and a financially clean person doesn't make one a great leader necessarily.

For your info, the same 'Establishment' had Pakistan to be a very prosperous country well into Pakistan's history into the 1980s when compared with the neighbors. The same 'Establishment' made Pakistan's defense, and, yes, with a lot of American help, to be so strong that a fledgling nation born in 1947 with potentials like the modern Afghanistan has been able to face off a far stronger enemy till this day.

The perks and the privileges the Pakistan military enjoys are not unique to Pakistan. In America too the Military Industrial Complex enjoys immense privileges to the detriment of ordinary Americans and I think there are other countries where some form of uniformed or civilian oligarchy enjoys great privileges. BUT countries don't get destroyed from them.

A country gets destroyed when there are internal divisions, when there are 'revolutions' when the revolutionaries are the same old--as in case of PTI, a country gets destroyed when all its institutions start to fight against each other, which is happening in Pakistan now, thanks in no small measure to a power hungry Imran Khan who was assured to win the next elections anyway.

Gravely damaging the Pakistani 'establishment' without a viable alternative would put Pakistan in grave danger akin to what happened in some Middle Eastern countries in the name of 'revolutions' and Indians are eagerly waiting for the moment to arrive. Do you think Imran Khan is that smart and do you think there will be a PTI if, God forbids, a bullet takes him out??? Oh you fools!!!

But then I am probably playing the proverbial flute to the buffaloes here. There are none more blind than those who refuse to see!

 

[Khan_21]

It saddens me to read your post. Sounds like another PTI fanboi who repeats the 'establishment' part ad nauseum because the Aristotle of Pakistan Mr. Imran Khan, the born again Muslim, started saying that barely a year ago. Have some originality of thought! A philanthropist and a financially clean person doesn't make one a great leader necessarily.

For your info, the same 'Establishment' had Pakistan to be a very prosperous country well into Pakistan's history into the 1980s when compared with the neighbors. The same 'Establishment' made Pakistan's defense, and, yes, with a lot of American help, to be so strong that a fledgling nation born in 1947 with potentials like the modern Afghanistan has been able to face off a far stronger enemy till this day.

The perks and the privileges the Pakistan military enjoys are not unique to Pakistan. In America too the Military Industrial Complex enjoys immense privileges to the detriment of ordinary Americans and I think there are other countries where some form of uniformed or civilian oligarchy enjoys great privileges. BUT countries don't get destroyed from them.

A country gets destroyed when there are internal divisions, when there are 'revolutions' when the revolutionaries are the same old--as in case of PTI, a country gets destroyed when all its institutions start to fight against each other, which is happening in Pakistan now, thanks in no small measure to a power hungry Imran Khan who was assured to win the next elections anyway.

Gravely damaging the Pakistani 'establishment' without a viable alternative would put Pakistan in grave danger akin to what happened in some Middle Eastern countries in the name of 'revolutions' and Indians are eagerly waiting for the moment to arrive. Do you think Imran Khan is that smart and do you think there will be a PTI if, God forbids, a bullet takes him out??? Oh you fools!!!

But then I am probably playing the proverbial flute to the buffaloes here. There are none more blind than those who refuse to see!

Are you high? Establishment made Pakistan prosperous? They are the reason we are in this mess. They are the reason why no government could complete its term. Btw taking US aid and pumping that into the economy is exactly why we are here. Thats not being called prosperous.

And no we aint in any danger if establishment is gone. Its akin to stockhokm syndrome nothing else. Been tried for 70 years wont work on people anymore. They cant keep leeching and murdering people just because they are offering security which they are btw failing miserably at.

American military major or colonel gets pension or Gi bill he doesnt get to choose plots/lands given out to them which were grabbed illegally. Neither an American general can dream of doing coups , abducting common civilians or overthrowing governments at will. They are subserviant to the civilian regime and thats why its a success.

 

[Maula Jatt]

It saddens me to read your post. Sounds like another PTI fanboi who repeats the 'establishment' part ad nauseum because the Aristotle of Pakistan Mr. Imran Khan, the born again Muslim, started saying that barely a year ago. Have some originality of thought! A philanthropist and a financially clean person doesn't make one a great leader necessarily.

For your info, the same 'Establishment' had Pakistan to be a very prosperous country well into Pakistan's history into the 1980s when compared with the neighbors. The same 'Establishment' made Pakistan's defense, and, yes, with a lot of American help, to be so strong that a fledgling nation born in 1947 with potentials like the modern Afghanistan has been able to face off a far stronger enemy till this day.

The perks and the privileges the Pakistan military enjoys are not unique to Pakistan. In America too the Military Industrial Complex enjoys immense privileges to the detriment of ordinary Americans and I think there are other countries where some form of uniformed or civilian oligarchy enjoys great privileges. BUT countries don't get destroyed from them.

A country gets destroyed when there are internal divisions, when there are 'revolutions' when the revolutionaries are the same old--as in case of PTI, a country gets destroyed when all its institutions start to fight against each other, which is happening in Pakistan now, thanks in no small measure to a power hungry Imran Khan who was assured to win the next elections anyway.

Gravely damaging the Pakistani 'establishment' without a viable alternative would put Pakistan in grave danger akin to what happened in some Middle Eastern countries in the name of 'revolutions' and Indians are eagerly waiting for the moment to arrive. Do you think Imran Khan is that smart and do you think there will be a PTI if, God forbids, a bullet takes him out??? Oh you fools!!!

But then I am probably playing the proverbial flute to the buffaloes here. There are none more blind than those who refuse to see!

we need democracy man, itll be 10000xxx times better than the establishment in the long run - and in that democracy reduce power of Punjab through electoral college or something along those lines

whatever BS propaganda pro faujis make- we are collectively tired of their games - our viable alternative establishment is Imran Khan (afterwards any other democratic leader) and businessmen, corporates like most other normal countries

this fauji experiment of 70+ years was overall net negative

 

[Meengla]

we need democracy man, itll be 10000xxx times better than the establishment in the long run - and in that democracy reduce power of Punjab through electoral college or something along those lines

All of you forget why the 'Establishment' exists. Pakistan has been a 'Security State' since Day One due to Pakistan's contest with India over Kashmir. There is no such counterpart 'establishment' Bangladesh.

I don't think it is the perks of the Generals which has ruined Pakistan. It is the mindset of being a perpetual Security State. That mindset would keep feeding the 'Establishment'.
People here are trying to have their cake and eat it to. Doesn't work like that. And I absolutely believe that, without a viable alternative, removing the Pakistani 'Establishment' will be the end of Pakistan as we know it. PTI is not a force sent from the Heavens. It relies on ONE person and his charisma. God forbids, a bullet finds his head, PTI finishes. Many of the PTI leadership are from other parties anyway--the good old PPP and PML! They, like the lifelong opportunists they are, will find some ways to be back in power.

 

[Signalian]

The ways and means that Pakistan is kept afloat is mesmerising at times. Jumping from one super power to another.

 

[Meengla]

The ways and means that Pakistan is kept afloat is mesmerising at times. Jumping from one super power to another.

But a new paradigm is emerging in Eurasia--a China dominant one. I foresee a detente between India and Pakistan brokered by China and Russia. I don't think Indians are stupid enough to annoy both China and Russia at the same time.

 

[Kaniska]

All of you forget why the 'Establishment' exists. Pakistan has been a 'Security State' since Day One due to Pakistan's contest with India over Kashmir. There is no such counterpart 'establishment' Bangladesh.

I don't think it is the perks of the Generals which has ruined Pakistan. It is the mindset of being a perpetual Security State. That mindset would keep feeding the 'Establishment'.
People here are trying to have their cake and eat it to. Doesn't work like that. And I absolutely believe that, without a viable alternative, removing the Pakistani 'Establishment' will be the end of Pakistan as we know it. PTI is not a force sent from the Heavens. It relies on ONE person and his charisma. God forbids, a bullet finds his head, PTI finishes. Many of the PTI leadership are from other parties anyway--the good old PPP and PML! They, like the lifelong opportunists they are, will find some ways to be back in power.

If a society values a army soldier is more valuable than a doctor or engineer then the nation’s psyche need a revamp…End of the day for a nation an army should he held at the same esteem as a scientist or an engineer….

 

[Signalian]

But a new paradigm is emerging in Eurasia--a China dominant one. I foresee a detente between India and Pakistan brokered by China and Russia. I don't think Indians are stupid enough to annoy both China and Russia at the same time.

Russia has landed itself in a quagmire through Ukrainian campaign which had activated forces from western countries against it. China stands strong not only in the region but in the world, so any worthwhile manoeuvre has to be led from China, not Russia

However, India is now being towed from out ends - AUKUS and Russia.

 

[Kaniska]

But a new paradigm is emerging in Eurasia--a China dominant one. I foresee a detente between India and Pakistan brokered by China and Russia. I don't think Indians are stupid enough to annoy both China and Russia at the same time.

That is true..I can see it happening sooner than expected to happen…Most probably, LOC will be converted to IB and some kind of fancy special status will be provided to Jammu and kashmir by Delhi to close the Kashmir chapter