China 🇨🇳 and Pakistan 🇵🇰 special relationship

https://www.eurasiareview.com/27032023-china-pakistan-special-relationship-an-alliance-changing-geopolitical-picture-of-asia-analysis/

 

[Meengla]

n Pakistan, the military is the first one to reach the public. It’s not military’s job to make roads, put medical camps, send in forces for relief efforts etc but it becomes military job since civil defence is weak where as military can say no citing duty on national security agenda as foremost and cannot spare soldiers thus burdening federal paramilitary forces to do all tasks internally.

In case of Pakistan, it's the chicken vs egg equation!! From Day One, Pakistan was constituted to be a 'Security State' and what can be the force to hold a vey fledgling Security State but the military?? The current state is that without the Pakistani military, there is no viable 'State of Pakistan' left. General Hamid Gul used to point out that without the Pakistani military, Pakistan would be yet another weak State like most in the Middle East. Minus that, if someone thinks some 'Young Turks' or some 'revolutionaries' are going to miraculously steer Pakistan in the right direction then they are misguided because there are no such people. There is an old Urdu poem's stanza which I am forgetting right now. Went something like 'I am now because I was constituted to be this way'.

On a more promising outlook: PTI is a promising force in Pakistan. Youthful and ambitious. It needs to be harnessed so that it is an 'institution' instead of a cult. Leadership has to be raised wisely. Look around Imran Khan and tell me who are the alternate in case Imran takes a bullet to his head? Who are around him but mostly the same old. And then tell me that they will form a stable Pakistan compared with the 'establishment'. And tell me honestly!

 

[lightning F57]

A failed security state which will end up eventually losing its special relationship with China.

 

[Kaniska]

Correct.
President Pervez Musharraf was the most anti-India leader of Pakistan after Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. It's just not me but I have seen others also said that (well, outside of this forum!). But after the folly of Kargil in 1999, he realized that even the so-called 'Chenab Formula' was not attainable by Pakistan. So the war-hawk Musharraf became a dove of peace and hence the Musharraf-Manmohan dialog over Kashmir. The most shocking part in that dialog was that Musharraf, and implicitly the Pakistani 'establishment', agreed with the LoC=IB with some face saving compromises. That was never ever considered in Pakistan but that was always an option in India despite Indian grandstanding.

A new world is being shaped in front of us and being shaped rapidly. Eurasia is the center of human activities. Major Eurasian wars always shaped the course of human history. So don't be too surprised if surprises come up tomorrow.



You have an exaggerated fear of an exhausted Pakistan.

Personally, I believe, even if we are arch enemies to each other, a good majority of people from both sides do not really want to see each other getting killed...Even if Pakistan gets into a very difficult situation in the future, the majority of Indians like me do not want to see each other fighting and killing....Yes, it may happen that we will always have hyper-nationalist people like me who would like to fight with you guys in the internet and media, but it does not mean the majority of Indian people will celebrate the killing of Pakistanis and i also strongly believe same sentiment exists within Pakistan too..

 

[Signalian]

In case of Pakistan, it's the chicken vs egg equation!! From Day One, Pakistan was constituted to be a 'Security State' and what can be the force to hold a vey fledgling Security State but the military?? The current state is that without the Pakistani military, there is no viable 'State of Pakistan' left. General Hamid Gul used to point out that without the Pakistani military, Pakistan would be yet another weak State like most in the Middle East. Minus that, if someone thinks some 'Young Turks' or some 'revolutionaries' are going to miraculously steer Pakistan in the right direction then they are misguided because there are no such people. There is an old Urdu poem's stanza which I am forgetting right now. Went something like 'I am now because I was constituted to be this way'.

On a more promising outlook: PTI is a promising force in Pakistan. Youthful and ambitious. It needs to be harnessed so that it is an 'institution' instead of a cult. Leadership has to be raised wisely. Look around Imran Khan and tell me who are the alternate in case Imran takes a bullet to his head? Who are around him but mostly the same old. And then tell me that they will form a stable Pakistan compared with the 'establishment'. And tell me honestly!

Regarding the thread - without a doubt it was Pakistan Military which made the crrect choice of getting close to China and that is an excellent choice.

The role of Pakistan military started from the onset by escorting refugees and even before the war of Kashmir, a threat loomed on Pakistan when India started invading states wanting to join Pakistan. I have mentioned in some other posts how Pakistan Military was and is instrumental to Pakistan so not gonna copy paste, but considering the destruction of Syria, Libya, Egypt etc, Pakistan was next and it wasn't just the nuke that saved it from the clutches of USA/NATO, it was also closeness to China and Chinese interests in Pakistan.

PTI is just IK, rest of the Lotas will return to their parties the day IK gets a bullet in the head.

IK has misguided the nation, he has created another form of extremism in Pakistan. He has thrown away the respect and rationality from minds of the youth and filled their hearts with hatred and negativity under the guise of standing up to corruption. IK has misled the youth into believing him as Demi-God and to deny everything else.

Pakistan is already mired by the curse of extremism and IK has found an opportunity in extremism to strengthen his own standing. The youth has the right to question everything, if they question other things, they should question IK also, but he has blinded their ability to question him, like the Pied piper story. IK's aim is to get back in power even at the sake of destroying Pakistan, destroying military of Pakistan, destroying institutions of Pakistan - tell me should Pakistan accept such a leader ? NO way.

It is the system of works in Pakistan that needed overhaul, but IK created mistrust, created hatred, created differences, abused, cursed, and called names. You really want such a man to lead Pakistan ? I don't. Corruption is in every country at some level. But the methods of IK are not against corruption even if his motto is that, the methods of IK are against each and everything in Pakistan, even the youth that follow him. IK is hell bent on destroying Pakistan, yes this is what it has come to, he may have been a savior of Pakistan but the path he has chosen is not of a savior of Pakistan.

IK should have questioned institutions on merit and corruption, but he attacked the institutions themselves, this is the works of a psycho or a mad man like Hitler. IK himself doesn't follow law, he has given an example to youth not follow law. You really want a leader who will follow law only when he himself becomes a PM ? I don't.

While IK made the youth hate the institutions, he made the institutions hate him. so what is IK doing ? His methodology is spreading hate all around, spreading chaos, spreading mistrust. There is an ayat in Koran, cant remember exactly something like, don't be the one to spread fasssad on Earth. IK is spreading that.

At the end of the day, Pakistanis have to choose an evil anyway. One evil is N or PPP, another evil is IK's PTI. Its not even about a lesser or bigger evil now, both evil are biggest in Pakistan.

 

[Khan_21]

Army soldier shows up at time of need be it war or peace or calamity or medical or engineering.

That is true for anywhere. The difference is Military touts like you then try and justify loot , plunder , coups , land grabbing and killing just because they showed up during floods. All militaries do that. Last year British army came out during floods but do they do what I just mentioned above?

The 1965 war was a turning point for Pakistan as that’s when Pakistan military leadership connected close to China as it faced embargo from USA. Where as, it was after end of Musharraf’s tenure that Pakistan looked towards China for majority of defence needs while the craving for F-16 diminished.

One war to another, military was instrumental in bringing China close to Pakistan due to defence needs.

Thats when the downfall started. Ayub declared Fatima Jinnah raw agent and threw her out. Should Fatima Jinnah also have choosen to be wise like IK? It seems to be the common denominator in all this is one entity.

 

[Maula Jatt]

That is true for anywhere. The difference is Military touts like you then try and justify loot , plunder , coups , land grabbing and killing just because they showed up during floods. All militaries do that. Last year British army came out during floods but do they do what I just mentioned above?



Thats when the downfall started. Ayub declared Fatima Jinnah raw agent and threw her out. Should Fatima Jinnah also have choosen to be wise like IK? It seems to be the common denominator in all this is one entity.

I just see his typical propoganda faujeet type posts and it makes my blood boil so I end up ignoring it

Thanks for keeping up and answering his propoganda

 

[Khan_21]

In case of Pakistan, it's the chicken vs egg equation!! From Day One, Pakistan was constituted to be a 'Security State' and what can be the force to hold a vey fledgling Security State but the military?? The current state is that without the Pakistani military, there is no viable 'State of Pakistan' left. General Hamid Gul used to point out that without the Pakistani military, Pakistan would be yet another weak State like most in the Middle East. Minus that, if someone thinks some 'Young Turks' or some 'revolutionaries' are going to miraculously steer Pakistan in the right direction then they are misguided because there are no such people. There is an old Urdu poem's stanza which I am forgetting right now. Went something like 'I am now because I was constituted to be this way'.

On a more promising outlook: PTI is a promising force in Pakistan. Youthful and ambitious. It needs to be harnessed so that it is an 'institution' instead of a cult. Leadership has to be raised wisely. Look around Imran Khan and tell me who are the alternate in case Imran takes a bullet to his head? Who are around him but mostly the same old. And then tell me that they will form a stable Pakistan compared with the 'establishment'. And tell me honestly!

Equation is simple. Do we want corrupt land grabbers and criminals in uniform or not? The answer is no.

Stabilizing force my ***. Its the only force that has destabalized PK from day 1.

I just see his typical propoganda faujeet type posts and it makes my blood boil so I end up ignoring it

Thanks for keeping up and answering his propoganda

The problem with these touts is because the soldiers showed up during floods so the 100 other sins should be washed out.

Just look the other way when we assasinate PM's , abduct people/journalists , grab land from farmers for DHA's , Generals wife becoming billionaires but hey look the soldier showed up at floods.

 

[chinasun]

There are four major political forces in Pakistan, the Bhutto family representing the landlords and powerful classes, the Sharif family of the Punjab business class, the military, and the IK Justice Movement Party. IK is the weakest, and the only hope is to get a bargaining chip to negotiate an alliance with the military. Currently the most tense is the Bhutto family. If ik is in power, they will be marginalized. IK inciting populism is the process of taking chips. The sword hurts the enemy and oneself. The military's final choice is crucial. IK is betting on his life, I think his chance of success is only 10% because he is anti-corruption. The Sharif family chose to join forces with the military, and there is a high probability that they will outshine others in the future. In the future, more political struggles will come from within the family. I don't know if this stable situation is good or bad.

 

[Meengla]

The 1965 war was a turning point for Pakistan as that’s when Pakistan military leadership connected close to China as it faced embargo from USA. Where as, it was after end of Musharraf’s tenure that Pakistan looked towards China for majority of defence needs while the craving for F-16 diminished.

One war to another, military was instrumental in bringing China close to Pakistan due to defence needs.

And to correct a historic wrong perception: America's CENTO/CETO alliance with Pakistan were about defending Pakistan against 'Communist' threats. Ayub Khan, whom I still very deeply admire, was wrong to have written in his 'Friends, Not Masters' about America betraying Pakistan. India was never a 'communist' country and never formally part of the Warsaw Packt. It was, and remains disingenuous, for Pakistanis to blame America for the 'betrayal' about the 1965 war against India.

And, truth be told: America would always want India vs Pakistan after the 1947 Partition. But the Indian leaders were too stupid, too 'ideological', too 'Socialists', and went with the the losing Soviets while Pakistan, a very fledgling new country, smartly joined the Americans and made Pakistan to be formidable military power to be able to launch the Operation Gibraltar in 1965.

The history of Pakistan was of smartness, against many odds, until the Arab terrorists brought their war to Pakistan's doorsteps via the 9/11.

Personally, I believe, even if we are arch enemies to each other, a good majority of people from both sides do not really want to see each other getting killed...Even if Pakistan gets into a very difficult situation in the future, the majority of Indians like me do not want to see each other fighting and killing....Yes, it may happen that we will always have hyper-nationalist people like me who would like to fight with you guys in the internet and media, but it does not mean the majority of Indian people will celebrate the killing of Pakistanis and i also strongly believe same sentiment exists within Pakistan too..

Absolutely! No matter what this forum says--and I had been swayed by it for a while myself--what you say is true.

 

[Meengla]

PTI is just IK, rest of the Lotas will return to their parties the day IK gets a bullet in the head.

IK has misguided the nation, he has created another form of extremism in Pakistan. He has thrown away the respect and rationality from minds of the youth and filled their hearts with hatred and negativity under the guise of standing up to corruption. IK has misled the youth into believing him as Demi-God and to deny everything else.

Pakistan is already mired by the curse of extremism and IK has found an opportunity in extremism to strengthen his own standing. The youth has the right to question everything, if they question other things, they should question IK also, but he has blinded their ability to question him, like the Pied piper story. IK's aim is to get back in power even at the sake of destroying Pakistan, destroying military of Pakistan, destroying institutions of Pakistan - tell me should Pakistan accept such a leader ? NO way.

I remember an exchange with Indians here. I said BJP this and that. But the Indian response was quick and appropriate: After Modi, someone will be able to keep the BJP together but what about PTI?? I had no answer.

I don't think there will be a PTI after Imran Khan. If Pakistanis were smart they would start grooming someone in PTI after Imran Khan--a 70 year old guy and under threat like Benazir Bhutto was. The clock is ticking biologically or not. But the kids here are jumping up and down over a very self-absorbed person. A prince who could not be touched. How many people here are old enough to know this prince and his arrogant ways as a cricketer?? I know him. I had seen him from the 1979 World Cup and onwards. Arrogant. Ran to the cool weather of England in summers. A philander who became a born again Muslim in his 60s?? How he claimed the 1992 World Cup for himself when the majority of the work was done by Miandad, Inzimam, Wasim....

 

[lightning F57]

I just see his typical propoganda faujeet type posts and it makes my blood boil so I end up ignoring it

Thanks for keeping up and answering his propoganda

I think the alternative view is important to understand the opposition they may have some valid points along with many silly ones. Also people tend to be a product of the society they grow up in, live in and privileges they get to enjoy so when that is challenged they go on the guard to protect it at all cost.

IMO any system which is benefiting the few rather than majority needs to be taken down, this is the case with Pak. Majority suffer while the select elite see themselves above the rest, you can see that through numerous posts here.

There are four major political forces in Pakistan, the Bhutto family representing the landlords and powerful classes, the Sharif family of the Punjab business class, the military, and the IK Justice Movement Party. IK is the weakest, and the only hope is to get a bargaining chip to negotiate an alliance with the military. Currently the most tense is the Bhutto family. If ik is in power, they will be marginalized. IK inciting populism is the process of taking chips. The sword hurts the enemy and oneself. The military's final choice is crucial. IK is betting on his life, I think his chance of success is only 10% because he is anti-corruption. The Sharif family chose to join forces with the military, and there is a high probability that they will outshine others in the future. In the future, more political struggles will come from within the family. I don't know if this stable situation is good or bad.

It's not stable situation, and if you go against the will of the people instability will remain. I doubt China or anyone else will want to continue investing under these conditions.

 

[khansaheeb]

The key part to CPEC is the train link from Karachi to Chongqing–Xinjiang–Beijing-Europe railway across the Karakorum pass, until this rail is completed CPEC will forever be incomplete. Pakistan army, Chinese army with the best civil engineers of both countries need to sit down and devise a plan, schedule and funding for the project. This link will seal Pakistan's prosperity and economic strength for many decades and it will be the dawn of a new era. If India had any foresight they too would invest in this project as it too would hugely benefit them from this link. But foolish Indian present government falls for colonial games ,so until there is a new government it is unlikely India will participate and change. But then Bhanyas aren't foolish and they can smell dollars miles away.

Khunjerab Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

It saddens me to read your post. Sounds like another PTI fanboi who repeats the 'establishment' part ad nauseum because the Aristotle of Pakistan Mr. Imran Khan, the born again Muslim, started saying that barely a year ago. Have some originality of thought! A philanthropist and a financially clean person doesn't make one a great leader necessarily.

Projection, and blind one at that...
Who is even talking about PTI or the former premier? Great that you have an original thought and you want to impart that wisdom... but if replying to me than at least quote the passage that is being discussed... just so I'm clued in!
Second, if there is correlation between what I have said and what Khan says does not infer causation. My posts on this board are fairly clear on my stance and that is not in his favor. Quite the contrary I have tried to confer to the reader a more thorough, thoughtful and meaningful approach. Kind of thing that people forego when catering to superficial political rhetoric... analysis I'm more interested in as well.
My reflection, if it saddened you was not agenda driven, but yours? Which pivoted instantly to a politician, his party and credentials... perhaps was‽

For your info, the same 'Establishment' had Pakistan to be a very prosperous country well into Pakistan's history into the 1980s when compared with the neighbors. The same 'Establishment' made Pakistan's defense, and, yes, with a lot of American help, to be so strong that a fledgling nation born in 1947 with potentials like the modern Afghanistan has been able to face off a far stronger enemy till this day.

I'm afraid Pakistan has been a basket case for much of it's history. The little success that it did enjoy had more to do with western largesse. The establishment preferred and indeed acquiesced to an easier route, one of quid pro quo. And that "far stronger" enemy is the cope right there... Pakistan was only as useful as it's utility. I do not want to recount it's many failures... since you conveniently failed to mention. Ah yes... Ukraine comes to mind in recent times. Let me put it in plain English... Pakistan LOST the day of it's partition! Centuries of sacrifice, existence, progress and their descendents lost. And to be clear, I'm FOR partition... only saying, as Jinnah mused "a mutilated, truncated and moth eaten" one.

Only solemn acceptance here from you is that it could have been worse. But that cuts both ways, doesn't it? It could have been equally as bad or worse for India as well. So, establishment didn't do jack! In fact if anything it proved itself as opportunistic as anyone... understanding it's role and thumb over matters only it could affect. It leveraged and co-opted power for itself alone! The unwashed masses crossed the rubicon yet became colony of their own... the institutions didn't impart power to the people, it took it away! Whatever could have happened, actually did happen! Kashmir and Bengal lost! What other unpolished and unruffled diamond could India indeed possess by attacking, controlling or conquering Pakistan? Except for an endless headache ending perhaps in it's very disintegration...
Yet, Pakistan rightfully lost!
And lastly, did fight the wars it signed up for... consequences of which it's people(not of their choosing) feel to this day!

The perks and the privileges the Pakistan military enjoys are not unique to Pakistan. In America too the Military Industrial Complex enjoys immense privileges to the detriment of ordinary Americans and I think there are other countries where some form of uniformed or civilian oligarchy enjoys great privileges. BUT countries don't get destroyed from them.

It is fairly unique!
MIC is a private enterprise... need of it arose from wars of conquest, furthering and protecting U.S overseas interests, projection of power, protection of allies and by sale of equipment/services rendered.
Pakistan military has become an institutionalized oligarchy, that compromises on it's raison d'etre, and runs multiple commercial enterprises. In fact, fighting a real war may not be in "it's" own real interest, irrespective of nations desires!

An example is Pakistan's lack of interest or desire in patching up in it's neighborhood for the foremost interest of it's masses. Incapacity, lack of capability or desire? In reality the services rendered by the oligarchy's to its foreign benefactors inhibits any such forays... in trade, currency, movement, education or resources.

A country gets destroyed when there are internal divisions, when there are 'revolutions' when the revolutionaries are the same old--as in case of PTI, a country gets destroyed when all its institutions start to fight against each other, which is happening in Pakistan now, thanks in no small measure to a power hungry Imran Khan who was assured to win the next elections anyway.

Gravely damaging the Pakistani 'establishment' without a viable alternative would put Pakistan in grave danger akin to what happened in some Middle Eastern countries in the name of 'revolutions' and Indians are eagerly waiting for the moment to arrive. Do you think Imran Khan is that smart and do you think there will be a PTI if, God forbids, a bullet takes him out??? Oh you fools!!!

seemingly the ability of it's establishment to pull replacements out of thin air has remained commendable. None though were/are statesman, lacking basic acumen and knowledge about themselves, country or region at large. Puppets on a string! To put in perspective Pakistan has lost leaders to bullets/bombs and crashes.
Bring something new, willya‽
As I have said, elections are distractions managed by a few, on their dime and for their benefit.
so come what may...
Bring change that speaks, not a politician.

But then I am probably playing the proverbial flute to the buffaloes here. There are none more blind than those who refuse to see!

Ah, pity!
Insted keep yourself entertained with that proverbial flute... makes more sense.

The 1965 war was a turning point for Pakistan as that’s when Pakistan military leadership connected close to China as it faced embargo from USA. Where as, it was after end of Musharraf’s tenure that Pakistan looked towards China for majority of defence needs while the craving for F-16 diminished.

One war to another, military was instrumental in bringing China close to Pakistan due to defence needs.

Pakistan willingly signed up for a cause against Soviets!
That, U.S didn't share same goals as Pakistan only reflects different priorities. Pakistan, though was a beneficiary of choice! It's elites chose that route...
Your last lines sums it up... Pakistan military unto itself was/is an instrument of foreign policy, domestic meddling and state paid the price for it's earlier commitments. I guess rentier was a correct term afterall.

 

[hussain0316]

Look around Imran Khan and tell me who are the alternate in case Imran takes a bullet to his head? Who are around him but mostly the same old. And then tell me that they will form a stable Pakistan compared with the 'establishment'. And tell me honestly!

Up shit creek without a paddle

 

[Meengla]

Ah, pity!
Insted keep yourself entertained with that proverbial flute... makes more sense.

I think YOU are both the proverbial buffalo and the flute. Your long rambling posts above are nothing but breast beating!

Up shit creek without a paddle

Very, very likely!! But then a lot of these apparent revolutionaries PDF Pakistanis are sitting in rich countries. Many of them probably never lived enough in Pakistan to know Pakistan. They never seen the 'rationing' under ZAB of 1970s. They never seen the public hangings and flogging under Zia. They never seen the pseudo Democrats like Benazir or Nawaz. Pakistan is a 'Game of Thrones' for them, watching from a distance as anarchy engulfs Pakistan. They may accuse the Sindhi Haaris of blind Bhutto support but they have no answer to what will happen when the last credible force in Pakistan, which is the military, is totally discredited or their Born Again Muslim Messiah Imran Khan, God Forbids, takes a bullet to this head.