Is a Secular Pakistan the solution?

[WAJsal]

My honest question is how does one change a system that is interconnected with each other on the basis of corruption and bad deeds? I know your bad deeds so you scratch my back and I will hide yours while I scratch your back and you hide mine....

How does one initiate change in such a system? Judiciary is sold off, every MNA , MPA and other ministers ALL look for personal interest over national interest and then we have the jahil who claim to have knowledge of a religion they dont follow

One word :revolution .
I mean look at almost every state there is , they weren't perfect , right from the start . They made sacrifices and somehow got together a system , by which they stood . Now , they are fruiting from it .
I think it will be quite difficult to tackle different problems mainly corrupting . Now doing nothing will only make thing worse for . I think we need a leader . A leader like Quaid , and we need our people to be willing to make sacrifices to reach new heights .

ALL look for personal interest over national interest and then we have the jahil who claim to have knowledge of a religion they dont follow

What a shame , right ? We need a Pakistan loving PM , who can cleanse this corrupt system .

 

[Dubious]

And still everyone is heading towards those countries. Why?

Because our country failed to be better....They never tried Islam but want to jump into Secular bandwagon coz it is the inn thing not exactly the right thing..

Pakistan lags in education, in security and in social development....

If the education institutes were upgraded

If the people were not corrupted and thought of country over their already bulging bellies - people would not need to go abroad! Meaning they would give the job based on merit not based on being blackmailed or doing / earning favours!

Do you think they are going for secularism? or even whatever is practiced in the name of secularism? Before the introduction of secularism people were always on the move- Europe to USA (which wasnt secular in the 1800s) to Britain (it wasnt secular in the 1500s)

And people from Britain to British india (it wasnt secular)

Education and better opportunities are the 2 ONLY reason which is attracting people to migrate...Nothing else!

One word :revolution .
I mean look at almost every state there is , they weren't perfect , right from the start . They made sacrifices and somehow got together a system , by which they stood . Now , they are fruiting from it .
I think it will be quite difficult to tackle different problems mainly corrupting . Now doing nothing will only make thing worse for . I think we need a leader . A leader like Quaid , and we need our people to be willing to make sacrifices to reach new heights .

What a shame , right ? We need a Pakistan loving PM , who can cleanse this corrupt system .

You got that right we need a leader....But every self proclaimed leader doesnt know the meaning of leadership nor is capable of leading....

Each has this retarded baap ka maal hai attitude!!

I care least about a Islamic country, I need justice, I value meritocracy, the qualities not to be found in ANY so-called Islamic country.

Justice is 1 of the key things which is corrupted...I use corruption to include every penny taken illegally, every life mistreated and every brainless idiot who gets to the top solely based on backing...

 

[syedali73]

Because our country failed to be better....They never tried Islam but want to jump into Secular bandwagon coz it is the inn thing not exactly the right thing..

Pakistan lags in education, in security and in social development....

If the education institutes were upgraded

If the people were not corrupted and thought of country over their already bulging bellies - people would not need to go abroad! Meaning they would give the job based on merit not based on being blackmailed or doing / earning favours!

Do you think they are going for secularism? Or even for secularism? Before the introduction of secularism people were always on the move- Europe to USA (which wasnt secular in the 1800s) to Britain (it wasnt secular in the 1500s)

And people from Britain to British india (it wasnt secular)

Only our country? Which Islamic country succeeded? name any one? What I do with a system that fails to deliver? I do not care about how the country is run, through secularism, or communism or whatever, I simply need justice, my right to live a peaceful and prosperous life.

 

[WAJsal]

You got that right we need a leader....But every self proclaimed leader doesnt know the meaning of leadership nor is capable of leading....

True that . Why not make a thread on this topic , it's a great topic . Do tag me .
On topic: 100% agreed , but all those who have been given a chance should not be elected again , especially those who are involved in massive corruption .

I care least about a Islamic country, I need justice, I value meritocracy, the qualities not to be found in ANY so-called Islamic country.

Syed Bhai , that has got to be your best post , ever . Respect . 100 % agreed with what you said .

 

[Dubious]

Only our country? Which Islamic country succeeded? name any one?

Name 1 Islamic country that follows Islam

What I do with a system that fails to deliver? I do not care about how the country is run, through secularism, or communism or whatever, I simply need justice, my right to live a peaceful and prosperous life.

Everyone needs it and I have repeatedly brought this up in almost every thread I participate...No one has been able to answer:

My honest question is how does one change a system that is interconnected with each other on the basis of corruption and bad deeds? I know your bad deeds so you scratch my back and I will hide yours while I scratch your back and you hide mine....

How does one initiate change in such a system? Judiciary is sold off, every MNA , MPA and other ministers ALL look for personal interest over national interest and then we have the jahil who claim to have knowledge of a religion they dont follow

True that . Why not make a thread on this topic , it's a great topic . Do tag me .

I have tried to get the people on PDF to think beyond their bloody caste, their sectarian blood thirst and province/ region...To think bigger as in for Pakistan....Not one has been relatively close..

those who have been given a chance should not be elected again , especially those who are involved in massive corruption .

I have already suggested anyone about 50 yrs old in politics or anyhow related to politics should just be murdered....any longer they live the longer it will take to correct the system thanks to them owing soo many people who scratched their back and needing to repay them by doing more shit

Another step should be any parliament both upper and lower houses who have not been able to achieve any good for Pakistan in the yrs they have warmed their seat there should be given euthanasia! It is for the greater good of Pakistan! Seriously the more we tolerate them the more they loot us!

Any judge, lawyer who has let off even 1 rapist needs to be hung...

Any bloody financial minister/ adviser who made us even 1% more in debt than before he /she took over should be killed immediately ...We cant afford any more debts!

Any stupid educational minister who cant move the literacy level 10% more and move closer than just passing a bill for free education for children should be killed or exported to whoever wants to save shit...

Every bloody police wala, rent a Mullah, rent a whatever who has taken even 5 Rs of rishwat needs to stoned to death!

Did I miss any other creatures?

 

[ajpirzada]

And still everyone is heading towards those countries. Why?

Hazrat Ali said "Kufr ki hukoomat qayam reh sakti hey laikin zulm ki nahin".

I care least about a Islamic country, I need justice, I value meritocracy, the qualities not to be found in ANY so-called Islamic country.

indeed. Now the question is how may taking islam and/or its principles out of Pakistan could help us in achieving these parameters? the answer to me is that this will be a futile exercise. The secularists parties in our country have only made this country worse. Religious parties have similar credentials.
The example of turkey which many here like to cite is absurd. I hope people know the poor state turkey was in for most of her modern/secular history. It is only the improved governance under the Erdogan government which has turned around turkey's fate for good (until recently atleast).

Today what we need is not a secularist or religious party but a party which gives importance to 'justice,' 'meritocracy,' and institutional builiding. Our elders have given us a guideline to run the country in a way which is compatible with islamic principles. We agree or not, many in our country do find Islam as a unifying force keeping us together. However, ideology debate is not a fundamental issue we face today since many of these islamic principles are also the secularist principles. Better start giving them importance...

 

[WAJsal]

I have tried to get the people on PDF to think beyond their bloody caste, their sectarian blood thirst and province/ region...To think bigger as in for Pakistan....Not one has been relatively close..

I know right , why can't people think beyond that . Just the other day i was talking to a quite stupid fellow , i said more provinces will be good for Sindh , he went all berserk on me , regardless of the fact that it would help rural Sindh a lot . I think it has to do with education . This particular subject makes me emotional .

I have already suggested anyone about 50 yrs old in politics or anyhow related to politics should just be murdered....any longer they live the longer it will take to correct the system thanks to them owing soo many people who scratched their back and needing to repay them by doing more shit

Interesting .

Another step should be any parliament both upper and lower houses who have not been able to achieve any good for Pakistan in the yrs they have warmed their seat there should be given euthanasia! It is for the greater good of Pakistan! Seriously the more we tolerate them the more they loot us!

Agreed !

Any bloody financial minister/ adviser who made us even 1% more in debt than before he /she took over should be killed immediately ...We cant afford any more debts!

Instead we are allowing out dear PM to take even more debts , what stupidity .

Any judge, lawyer who has let off even 1 rapist needs to be hung...

Judges can easily be bribed , unfortunately .

Every bloody police wala, rent a Mullah, rent a whatever who has taken even 5 Rs of rishwat needs to stoned to death!

With the amount of corrupt people your list comprises i tell you it won't be easy .

 

[Dubious]

Judges can easily be bribed , unfortunately .

Hence why that pool needs to be hung

With the amount of corrupt people your list comprises i tell you it won't be easy .

I know...I wonder how this massive share is let loose by the mental mullah claiming to do good for Islam or the random sectarian BS misses from these pool of people who belong to every sect...

 

[WAJsal]

I know...I wonder how this massive share is let loose by the mental mullah claiming to do good for Islam or the random sectarian BS misses from these pool of people who belong to every sect...

I hate fake mullahs who think they are doing good for Islam . Just take the likes of Fazal-ur-rahman , guys a total crack head . We seriously need to get rid of these people .

 

[macnurv]

One word :revolution .
I mean look at almost every state there is , they weren't perfect , right from the start . They made sacrifices and somehow got together a system , by which they stood . Now , they are fruiting from it .
I think it will be quite difficult to tackle different problems mainly corrupting . Now doing nothing will only make thing worse for . I think we need a leader . A leader like Quaid , and we need our people to be willing to make sacrifices to reach new heights .

What a shame , right ? We need a Pakistan loving PM , who can cleanse this corrupt system .

Revolution?? I dont believe we need that, instead we need evolution of Pakistani society, No modern country is capable of handling a revolution, especially when that so called revolution is so easy to hijack. Most successful countries across the world have gone through evolutions rather having bloody revolution because there is no guarantee to achieving its goals. Institutions takes decades to build, even the worst performing ones, it is far easier to restructure them, but dismantling them only spells destruction.
Pakistan loving PM, I have no idea how can we have that when as a nation we can not agree on what can and can not be politicised.

Only our country? Which Islamic country succeeded? name any one? What I do with a system that fails to deliver? I do not care about how the country is run, through secularism, or communism or whatever, I simply need justice, my right to live a peaceful and prosperous life.

Well said Ali. Justice is the fundamental pillar of a righteous society, if there is no justice there shall be no peace.

Name 1 Islamic country that follows Islam


Everyone needs it and I have repeatedly brought this up in almost every thread I participate...No one has been able to answer:



I have tried to get the people on PDF to think beyond their bloody caste, their sectarian blood thirst and province/ region...To think bigger as in for Pakistan....Not one has been relatively close..


I have already suggested anyone about 50 yrs old in politics or anyhow related to politics should just be murdered....any longer they live the longer it will take to correct the system thanks to them owing soo many people who scratched their back and needing to repay them by doing more shit

Another step should be any parliament both upper and lower houses who have not been able to achieve any good for Pakistan in the yrs they have warmed their seat there should be given euthanasia! It is for the greater good of Pakistan! Seriously the more we tolerate them the more they loot us!

Any judge, lawyer who has let off even 1 rapist needs to be hung...

Any bloody financial minister/ adviser who made us even 1% more in debt than before he /she took over should be killed immediately ...We cant afford any more debts!

Any stupid educational minister who cant move the literacy level 10% more and move closer than just passing a bill for free education for children should be killed or exported to whoever wants to save shit...

Every bloody police wala, rent a Mullah, rent a whatever who has taken even 5 Rs of rishwat needs to stoned to death!

Did I miss any other creatures?

If no Muslim country is following Islam than what being Islamic revolution we talk of. Where is the example for the rest of the world? Wasn't this supposed to be job of muslims to follow the tenants of their religion, instead we are bickering over who is a muslim or who is a heretic.

Aren't in a way by asking this question you are vindicating the original premise of the poster that religion is getting obsolete in context of Pakistan, since as you mentioned all of us follow religion as long as it suits us. We must be ready to have a pragmatic and logical approach to this question.

indeed. Now the question is how may taking islam and/or its principles out of Pakistan could help us in achieving these parameters? the answer to me is that this will be a futile exercise. The secularists parties in our country have only made this country worse. Religious parties have similar credentials.
The example of turkey which many here like to cite is absurd. I hope people know the poor state turkey was in for most of her modern/secular history. It is only the improved governance under the Erdogan government which has turned around turkey's fate for good (until recently atleast).

Today what we need is not a secularist or religious party but a party which gives importance to 'justice,' 'meritocracy,' and institutional builiding. Our elders have given us a guideline to run the country in a way which is compatible with islamic principles. We agree or not, many in our country do find Islam as a unifying force keeping us together. However, ideology debate is not a fundamental issue we face today since many of these islamic principles are also the secularist principles. Better start giving them importance...

We are asking the wrong question here, its not matter of being a secularist or being religious, the crux of the matter is lack of justice in our society. In a nutshell the biggest shortcoming of our society is absence of justice, we must work towards a system that thrives on being fair and just, religion is a personal matter. But we must also accept that certain cultural barriers which are intertwined with religion.

 

[ajpirzada]

We are asking the wrong question here, its not matter of being a secularist or being religious, the crux of the matter is lack of justice in our society. In a nutshell the biggest shortcoming of our society is absence of justice, we must work towards a system that thrives on being fair and just, religion is a personal matter. But we must also accept that certain cultural barriers which are intertwined with religion.

agreed in principle. But i do not agree to the notion that religious principles are only a personal matter with no bearing on how the state should function. And this is what our founders including Jinnah understood of Islam as well. Here is my post citing Jinnah to prove my point.

nonetheless, many of these islamic principles (justice, merit, honesty) are similar to secularist principles except those dealing with social morality. Therefore, no one should have trouble in implementing these.

 

[Dubious]

If no Muslim country is following Islam than what being Islamic revolution we talk of. Where is the example for the rest of the world? Wasn't this supposed to be job of muslims to follow the tenants of their religion, instead we are bickering over who is a muslim or who is a heretic.

Firstly, what was supposed to be doesnt allways happen...In secular France, it claims to be intolerant of religion but repeatedly ONLY drops the hammer on Islam ...From headscarf to even the size of your skirt if it is short enough or not!

Even in secular European societies the church still rings its bells everyday (not just Sunday)

Even in Secular WEST, Christmas and Easter are big holidays so where is secularism when the whole govt gets to rest on pagan- Christian holidays? When in courts people still need to put their hands on their religious books, when the basic morals like welfare of some countries is somewhat explained 1400 yrs ago by Islam??

When making education compulsory was also practiced by Islam 1400 yrs ago....

We have lost our way the West have come to a 1400 yr old theoretical practices (which we were given freely and forgot)....modified it a bit and labelled it Secularism

Aren't in a way by asking this question you are vindicating the original premise of the poster that religion is getting obsolete in context of Pakistan, since as you mentioned all of us follow religion as long as it suits us. We must be ready to have a pragmatic and logical approach to this question.

Just because some of us do something doesnt mean it is right and should be legalized and enforced!

 

[Salman Arif]

Its not about abandoning religion, no body has to give up their faith in a secular system, its just that the systemic marginalization based on any social fractures be they faith, sect or ethnicity are discarded as tools to create preferred and non-preferred groups, thereby allowing everyone equal access to all opportunities.

Brother in my opinion, religion is not problem, extremism is. All our problems can be solved through education and studying both religion and other studies. Marginalizing religion is not only difficult to implement but in my opinion wrong also(as I have given references and explanations in my previous comments, there are many more also).


We consider Almighty Allah to be perfect and then marginalize or eliminate role of religion by our desire. So there comes a contradiction in our words and actions.

If religion is not properly implemented, studied and known as it should be and we are not seeing the results, then I consider it is not fair to blame the religion. If the followers are not following the religion, then religion is not to be blamed as it is the fault of followers. There is more than enough room for amendments.

I would quote Iqbal again:
"Jalal e Padshahi ho ya jamhoori tamasha ho-Juda ho deen siasat se to reh jati hae Changezi"
(Whether it is a democracy or monarchy, when religion is separated from politics all left is brutality(referred to Gengiz Khan))
As we have seen superpowers occupying resources of weaker nations(just an example for quote).

 

[Kolachi Punjabi]

We have 2 options to get out of the mess we're in

A) Completely secularize. (unlikely)
B) Reinterpret Islam or reform it in context of our culture & history, and regulate the version of Islam being disseminated. that way we can still be Islamic but in our way. (very plausible)

I would choose option B over A, since being Islamic is a fundamental part of our nationhood, but we just have to localize what Islamic means.

 

[PDF]

Lets do a poll in which PDF pakistanis vote for secular or islamic pakistan.