IRIAF | News and Discussions

[applesauce]

Well, if the Kowsar can carry beyond visual range air to air missiles, shouldn't it at least challenge F-18s or F-16s? I don't know if it can field those missiles, but if it does, shouldn't it be capable of challenging those 4th-generation US-made fighter jets?

no, they can see you first and fire first then scoot before you get into range yourself or even know they are there.

otherwise USAF, RUAF and PLAAF might as well all exclusively fly turbo-props armed with BVR missiles. But they don't because there is a very good reason to go 5th gen. same applies here, but the gap isn't as large as between 4th gens and 5th gens.

 

[sha ah]

The radar on the Kowsar F-5 is too small. It's a light fighter jet. It's only chance is to fly low and maybe use info from AWACS and ground radar stations for its mission.

Aside from that it doesn't have a chance against F-16s or Rafales or even JF-17s in direct confrontations. They will simply see it first and fire first.

Well, if the Kowsar can carry beyond visual range air to air missiles, shouldn't it at least challenge F-18s or F-16s? I don't know if it can field those missiles, but if it does, shouldn't it be capable of challenging those 4th-generation US-made fighter jets?

 

[sanel1412]

Well, if the Kowsar can carry beyond visual range air to air missiles, shouldn't it at least challenge F-18s or F-16s? I don't know if it can field those missiles, but if it does, shouldn't it be capable of challenging those 4th-generation US-made fighter jets?

It is not abt BVR missile,only 1-3% of engagements resulted in shuting down were result of BVR,air force is complex...US has such surveilance power that it can use aircrafts without radars and still beat anyone...these DCS simulation are worthless ...in real war you fight as part of large deployment..you dont fly and wait till enemy bump on you...every take off is particular mission,supported by intelligence ,ground operators or one flying in AWACS...in 99% case when it come to A2A combat,enemy is detected by ground radar or AWACS..if enemy has better BVR missile or aircraft,than radar operator can guide you so you can get close without been seen by enemy...so it all gets to overall capability...how military is good,air force logistic.... I spoke with German pilot,he said they always have at least 80km complete insight getting from AWACS or ground radars when they fly...I mean 360 degree from 1km up to high altitude...you cant get that without logistic by ground infrastucture or AWACS...they probably put 80km minimum because that is safe zone they can run and escape even if someone lunch from more distance.

In short US can use only 4th gen aircraft and their overall capability will still be almost same,they would just compensate with other assets since,as I said,they have huge surveilance power...from space...AWACS,ships...bases everywhere

 

[jauk]

The technology needed to build a true 6th or 7th Gen AI based fighter are the same technologies that build up on 5th Gen fighters

*high end jet engine
*cutting edge sub systems/avionics
*Powerful airborne radar

So people who think Iran can “magically” jump to 7th Gen AI based fighters aren’t living in reality. The pilot and his required sub systems aren’t what’s holding Iran back. It’s lack of investment in titanium alloys, engines, and the production chain to build a cutting edge fighter jet wether human operated or AI operated is irrelevant.

There will be no '7th gen AI based fighters'. When they come they will be first generation. Ergo, leap frogging is the only option which I'm confident is why Iran's 'conventional' (4th, 5th, ...nth gen etc) air force has been de-prioritized for years. The reason is not technology...it's clear thinking.

 

[TheImmortal]

There will be no '7th gen AI based fighters'. When they come they will be first generation. Ergo, leap frogging is the only option which I'm confident is why Iran's 'conventional' (4th, 5th, ...nth gen etc) air force has been de-prioritized for years. The reason is not technology...it's clear thinking.

And what are you going to put inside your super duper AI fighter when all you have been working on is owj and a F-5?

You have zero experience with titanium alloys, you cannot build the intricate blades of the turbines, you cannot build medium to heavy engines, you have zero experience building long range radars that can detect VLO aircraft. You have no infrastructure in place to mass even 50 fighter jets a year. The list continues on and on.

You clearly aren’t using logic. This isn’t an industry you “leapfrog” beyond starting at 4th Gen....which is max Iran can leapfrog before it needs to start building modern technologies.

That’s like saying I’m going to leapfrog from SLVs to warp drive spaceships and land on Mars when you cannot even launch a micro satellite with a 80% success rate.

The will and the investment has not been made. Once that happens we can talk about realistic next steps. The first basic next step is demonstrate the capability to mass produce a medium/heavy engine on par with RD-33 or AL-21. Without that you shouldn’t even think of any super duper AI fighter jets.

 

[Natalya Shadova]

The flanker is outdated but modern variants can still be a very useful weapon against regional revivals for Iran. This channel coincidentally just made a video on just such a topic.

Flanker is not outdated at all lol

 

[Natalya Shadova]

Iran should and could acquire and do the following: of the next 2 years
- Modernize current MiG-29 to MiG-35 standard, acquire more MiG-35. Request Zhuk-A AESA radar
- Buy 36+ SU-35 (likely)
- Buy SU-30, request technology transfer. Also request help from Russia for setting up production and material lines. For the SU-30 variant, get SM2 or a possible future SM3
- Develop an indigenous AIM-120 or R-77 equivalent
- Finish indigenous Loyal wingman UAV projects. Ghadir (being acquired by Venezuela) and Sejjil

 

[jauk]

And what are you going to put inside your super duper - <CLIP>

 

[TheImmortal]

Iran should and could acquire and do the following: of the next 2 years
- Modernize current MiG-29 to MiG-35 standard, acquire more MiG-35. Request Zhuk-A AESA radar
- Buy 36+ SU-35 (likely)
- Buy SU-30, request technology transfer. Also request help from Russia for setting up production and material lines. For the SU-30 variant, get SM2 or a possible future SM3
- Develop an indigenous AIM-120 or R-77 equivalent
- Finish indigenous Loyal wingman UAV projects. Ghadir (being acquired by Venezuela) and Sejjil

US has a new Russian pain point —Ukraine.

The second Russia tries to sell Iran balancing altering weapons, US will invoke the Ukraine card and threaten to send weapons directly to Ukraine.

The best bet Iran can hope for is under the table ToT and selling of jet engines. Things that Russia can claim plausible deniability. For example, Iran claims that they are building AL-21 or RD-33 on their own via reverse engineering. When in reality they are receiving Russian assistance or even Russian engines sold thru an intermediary.

This allows Iran to claim self sufficiency and allows Russia to deny ever selling Iran anything. Less likely to get US response.

But large amounts of fighter aircraft or mass production of SU-30 INSIDE Iran....US will not allow that and start going after Russian pain points. Then Russia will abandon the deal like they always do (T-72, Shafagh, etc)

 

[yugocrosrb95]

The radar on the Kowsar F-5 is too small. It's a light fighter jet. It's only chance is to fly low and maybe use info from AWACS and ground radar stations for its mission.

Aside from that it doesn't have a chance against F-16s or Rafales or even JF-17s in direct confrontations. They will simply see it first and fire first.

Flaws of Kowsar can be rectified with gradual iterations on the design as that happens with any military hardware.

Or extensive redesign while using as much of manufacturing tools as possible.

Greater restriction is Iran not having light weight BVR missiles compared to Fakour-90 / AIM-23B or AIM-54 Phoenix that are over twice as heavy as for example AIM-120.

If Iran develops and mass produces BVR ARH AAM that has weight of 180kg and range of 120km then there is potential to produce a potent subsonic partisan micro fighter jet.

Or at least something like MICA BVR IR that has lock on after launch that can be launched for interception of target to area it is expected to be.

If Iran could improve Jahesh-700 to increase output to 800kg then it is viable to do so.

2300 kilogram empty weight.
4000 kilogram maximum take off weight.
Thrust to Weight ratio at maximum weight is 0.4 that is equivalent to F-5 Tiger II with full afterburner at maximum carrying capacity.

Carry 4 BVR ARH / IR

Ejection Seat 90kg.
Theoretical Jahesh-800 x2 280kg.
Grifo-F equivalent radar 90kg.

These 3 components are 460kg.

1840kg left for rest of empty aircraft.

Fuel capacity of 1000 liters that should be 800kg.

Pilot with equipment should be 100kg in worst case.

That should leave 800kg for payload.

 

[sha ah]

The US tried everything in its power to try and stop Moscow from selling the S-400 to Turkey and the S-300 to Iran. It didn't work in the end. Flankers are not exactly cutting edge and Russia has now been prevented from selling them to Egypt, Indonesia and Algeria. You think Russia is just to going to take this without responding ?

As far as Ukraine is concerned, it's complicated but it seems as if Putin is ready to take Ukraine if the west doesn't give him security guarantees. Russian troops are highly professional, well trained and extremely well equipped. On the other hand, I saw a clip recently. The Ukrainians don't even have enough bullets for training purposes.

They're training 50 year old grannys and single moms, even handing their little children the same cardboard guns to learn how to shoot the Russians. Remember those women and civilians in Afghanistan vowing to fight off the Taliban ? This is something similar.

I'm not making this up, the situation is extremely dire for Ukraine. The disparity in military capability and capacity vs Russia is black and white. Ukraine has zero chance honestly. Even the US has stated that Russia could take Kiev within 3 days.

Ukraine's 2nd largest city is 40 km away from the Russian border. All of those weapons will likely end up in the hands of Russia. I'm guessing that Putin will turn off the heat on Ukraine. People will panic and then he will send in his troops, people will cheer the Russians and Putin will simply get rid of the NATO backed moderate neo Nazis and install a pro Moscow Ukrainian government.

US has a new Russian pain point —Ukraine.

The second Russia tries to sell Iran balancing altering weapons, US will invoke the Ukraine card and threaten to send weapons directly to Ukraine.

The best bet Iran can hope for is under the table ToT and selling of jet engines. Things that Russia can claim plausible deniability. For example, Iran claims that they are building AL-21 or RD-33 on their own via reverse engineering. When in reality they are receiving Russian assistance or even Russian engines sold thru an intermediary.

This allows Iran to claim self sufficiency and allows Russia to deny ever selling Iran anything. Less likely to get US response.

But large amounts of fighter aircraft or mass production of SU-30 INSIDE Iran....US will not allow that and start going after Russian pain points. Then Russia will abandon the deal like they always do (T-72, Shafagh, etc)

 

[TheImmortal]

. Flankers are not exactly cutting edge

Respectfully, what are you talking about?

Flankers are literally the most successful fighter jets (outside of the West). SU-30 and SU-35 are by far some of the most powerful and maneuverable fighters Iran could ever hope to have. They would change the balance of power in the region if Iran were to have a significant amount of them (75+). In Iranian territory they would be even more formidable with an air defense network protecting them while they hunted key fighters.

Also if I had $1 for every time I heard the phrase “this time it’s different, Russia is angry because of [insert reason]” I could probably buy 100 SU-35 fighters

Lastly the S-300 deal was a defensive weapon and Russia lost to Iran in World Court. If Russia didn’t provide Iran with the S-300 it would have to pay $10B in damages....on an $800M contract. So Russia had no way out.

Can’t compare domestic fighter jet production TOT and major offensive arms purchases with air defense systems.

Chances Russia helps Iran is very very low. I’ll wait for actual evidence as history has shown being skeptical is the way to go.

 

[Daylamite Warrior]

Flankers are literally the most successful fighter jets (outside of the West).

You will alway be "the most successful" when you're literally the only one "outside of the west" making fighter jets. Flankers are nice but elusive to purchase and not proven against western fighters, yet. Better than a kick in the head though.

 

[Messerschmitt]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1491352903512395778

 

[yavar]