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Iran’s Chabahar won’t vie with Pakistan’s Gwadar: Experts

Two ports less than 100Km from each other would not compete!!!

Axact university strikes again.....

The volume of trade going in front of Pakistan's coastline is 200 million TEU. Pakistan's ports can handle 6 million TEU at the moment. Chabahar can handle 0 at the moment. There's a lot to go around for everyone.

The NSTC is cheaper than the Suez route.

How is it cheaper? Please quantify with facts and figures and back them up with links. Thanks.
 
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Pakistan has never denied use of his ports to Afghanistan. Not even during war times. Afghan transit trade has never being stopped by Pakistan.

Earlier, Af's only choice was Karachi. Now that's no longer the case. And Pak never allowed transit trade between India and Af. Chabahar completely removes Pak influence from Af's trade.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1225298

http://articles.economictimes.india...conomic-corridor-wagah-attari-security-issues

And Pakistan believes it is a security threat.
http://www.dawn.com/news/1261792

How is it cheaper? Please quantify with facts and figures and back them up with links. Thanks.

http://www.idsa.in/issuebrief/InternationalNorthSouthTransportCorridor_msroy_180815
 
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All that link says is the NSTC is 40% shorter (which i'm inclined to agree) and says it's 30% cheaper without any quantification whatsoever (the link to the dry run is dead).

There is no proper quantification of your claim - please provide a proper calculation and thorough one (backed with links - I don't rely on heresay and neither should you).

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lea...lls-good-tidings-for-india/article7085906.ece
Dry runs conducted last July from the Nhava Sheva port in Maharashtra on two trade routes, one to Astrakhan in Russia, via Bandar Abbas and Amirabad, and another to Baku in Azerbaijan, via Bandar Abbas and Astara, show that these can reduce shipment costs by $2,500 per 15 tons of cargo.

The information available is enough. The point is this corridor will be built.

Any trader who knows he can cut down transportation time by 40% knows what sort of advantage that is for him. Even a reduction of 10% is cheaper than what he is paying through the Suez right now, especially if his goods are traveling 40% less days because that's a 40% boost in productivity right there.

http://www.instc-org.ir/Pages/Home_Page.aspx
 
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Chahabar is good for Gwadar --- all larger vessels requiring a deep sea port will have to use Gwadar. Chahabar is not a deep sea port --- this has been Gwadar's main "selling point" and it remains to this day. And you're stuck on cheap fuel.

China is a giant. There is no country in the world, and definitely not in the region, that can even come remotely close to its prowess (other than the US, of course, which is maintaining its position as the sole hyper-power mainly by keeping the US Dollar as the "global currency."). By one well-regarded estimate, its military budget alone is more than the combined budgets of India, Russia, France and the UK. That's something.

These ports are good for everyone in the region. Let's agree to leave it at that?

China is indeed a giant compared to others in the region with the exception of India. But what has that to do with the prospects for Gawadar?

The cheap fuel makes a big difference in price and therefore volume of traffic.

Gawadar ad Chabahar indeed will compete and that is good for trade and the consumers. But it is wrong to assert one does not affect the other

Pakistan has never denied use of his ports to Afghanistan. Not even during war times. Afghan transit trade has never being stopped by Pakistan.


Cheap Iranian furl is already available all across Pakistan, thanks to smugglers.

Chahbahar is yet to materialize whereas Gawadar will be fully functional by Dec this year. So we won't mind a healthy competition with Chahbahar.

not ports, I was referring to the time when Pakistan wouldn't allow supplies into Afghanistan a couple of years ago. That shows that they are not above such blackmail.

But yes, competition is good. It will force both to provide better services
 
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It depends on which rail link you are talking about, the NSTC or the Chabahar-Zahedan-Afghan rail link.

The NSTC will replace Suez and is a 3 nation project, Iran, Russia and India, with many partner countries.

But the $1.6B rail proposed link is for Iran and Afghanistan. And in the Chabahar region specifically, India plans up to $15B in investments. The NSTC project is different.



Yes, it will replace the sea route because the sea route takes two to three times longer and costs a bomb. There will be savings of $2500 for every 15 tons of cargo over the NSTC land route.

Suez will be used by India for trade between some European countries, North Africa and the US. For Russia, Eastern Europe and Northern Europe, NSTC will come into play. For Russia also NSTC is strategic because of their EEU plan. It will give them direct access to India, the Middle East and Africa.



They are all interlinked. Even Japan and S Korea.



All the sarcasm aside, you are wrong about one thing. India's investments into Iran and Afghanistan are investments. China's CPEC is a loan.

Iran and Afghan are not going to pay back all the investments to India. Pakistan has to pay back the Chinese loans over the next 50 years. So Iran and Afghan are getting a free lunch. And in exchange India gets access to Central Asia and Afghan's mineral deposits.

Whatever rail link it is. Please understand the differences between rail link and sea transport before deciding if ANY rail link will be able to replace sea transport. Why do you think Germans still use barges to transport goods up to Frankfurt and beyond from there sea ports? they do not have the rail link? Understand the logistics involved, the volumes of goods to be moved and the related facilities required. I am not even talking about the costs involved yet.

As for the free lunch, do i need to dig up the posts saying that "there is nothing like a free lunch". Come one, you and me both know better then this.

Listen dear, you may keep coming up with same old points that were already mentioned in the first few posts and i can keep repeating the same old things as well. This wont get us anywhere. You have changed from Iran being better route to China to Chabahar being better route to Europe and not presenting it as a replacement of Suez canal. We will just keep going round and round in circles. I guess i have presented you with enough points to counter this if you wanted to understand this, if not, then i see no hope that we will come to an agreement. I sure will see if i can present you with some reading material in some time that MIGHT help you but we have almost covered everything already.

Two ports less than 100Km from each other would not compete!!!

Axact university strikes again.....
:lol:
every two ports that are 100km apart compete with each other?
Dont even know which university is to be blamed.

At least read the whole discussion, you may understand who different there operational capability and priorities will be and that MAY help you. Else, keep up with the trolling and let the mods take care of it. :tup:
 
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Whatever rail link it is. Please understand the differences between rail link and sea transport before deciding if ANY rail link will be able to replace sea transport. Why do you think Germans still use barges to transport goods up to Frankfurt and beyond from there sea ports? they do not have the rail link? Understand the logistics involved, the volumes of goods to be moved and the related facilities required. I am not even talking about the costs involved yet.

Railways are better for logistics for long distances in the long term. Unlike ships, railways have a high initial investment. And the German scenario may be completely different. Maybe the rail route is not feasible, maybe they can create more jobs using barges, you will have to check the exact reasons, blanket statements don't do anything.

As for the free lunch, do i need to dig up the posts saying that "there is nothing like a free lunch". Come one, you and me both know better then this.

I don't know what you mean.

I guess i have presented you with enough points to counter this

I'm afraid you haven't given any points that leads me to think otherwise. All you have said is Gwadar will help Pakistan-China trade which I am inclined to agree with. You have presented nothing else that leads me to believe it will help other countries.
 
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Railways are better for logistics for long distances in the long term. Unlike ships, railways have a high initial investment.
You are mistaken here as well sir. AND it is not even about the cost yet. The logistics involved, the volumes transported, the infrastructure required all are and have always been in favor of sea routes.

And the German scenario may be completely different. Maybe the rail route is not feasible, maybe they can create more jobs using barges, you will have to check the exact reasons, blanket statements don't do anything.
Nops, this is not the case. In fact, they have taken a lot of pain in making those rivers feasible for barges. It is purely cost and logistics related. Also please note that the rail route would have surely created much much more jobs. A ship carrying 20000 container will need 400 trains carrying 50 container each to transport the same volume. You can easily figure out what will create more jobs if you want to.



I don't know what you mean.
I meant to point out the fact that there is no free lunch in international relations. Isn't this what we are told time and time again in case of US-Pak and CHina Pak relations? The truth is that i agree with this in all these cases as well.



I'm afraid you haven't given any points that leads me to think otherwise. All you have said is Gwadar will help Pakistan-China trade which I am inclined to agree with. You have presented nothing else that leads me to believe it will help other countries
I have pointed you in the right direction a number of times, i told you about the geographic location, i mentioned the different roles both these ports are set to play. I mentioned the comparison of China vs India influence as well as Pakistan vs Afghanistan or Iran influence. I also pointed out that this is not a port-road network for us and there is a lot more to it then this. I mentioned the sea route vs rail/road link advantages/disadvantages. Sir i think i have given you all the points that you can study about to get the facts straight. However if you insist on drawing up the conclusion you were looking for from first post then it wont matter what i have said or tried to explain. I can just hope that you can study these points and see if it helps. Else, as said, we will just keep going round and round in circles.

Axact University. Certain 100%.
This gives a very good idea to everyone about the level of your intellect, thanks for the help, i wont have to explain anything to anyone now.

Only Axact university graduate would make these sort of stupid statement that Chahbhar would not undermine Gwadar.
Again, i am not sure what university graduate can make such idiotic statements without having the common sense of at least going through what the discussion is about. I cant disrespect any educational institute by associating it with such foolish statements.

And frankly you Pakistanis need to grow some self esteem. Not every criticism of your beloved CPEC is trolling. You people have given sovereign guarantee of 18% return and any neutral observer could attest that you could never pay back such a usurious rate of interest.
Lovely, an Indian member talking about self-esteem on a Pakistani forum.
As for trolling kid, i have been discussing this topic with @randomradio since the very start of this thread. Now ask him if i accused him of trolling or do he think i was trolling. We are having a good discussion, we do not agree with each other but there are a few rules and lines we can respect as any sane human can and will do. So when i tall you to stop trolling and not @randomradio despite having a much more serious disagreement with him, you better consider that there might be something wrong with YOU.

However, since all this wont help someone with the intellectual level of a child so i wont expect any real changes.
 
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Ships could travel 1000s of Km without needing to port. Just because 200 million TEU worth of cargo passes next to your coastline does not mean that all of it has to port anywhere. An Oil tanker could directly travel from Dubai to Tokyo without porting anywhere.

Only cargo that would be porting in Gwadar is one destined for Pakistan (and to some extent Afghanistan). It has practically no chance of supplying even China due to distance and Geography involved.

Primary competitor of Gwadar is Karachi port, and second is Chahbahar.

I know about the geography involved. The same argument could be used for Chabahar too.

The primary purpose of CPEC (for China) is to:
1. supply their western regions
2. reduce costs and travel time for energy imports and minerals
3. Quicker and cheaper access to the gulf region from their western regions.

So that goes against your point of cargo destined for Pakistan only. If it wasn't practical for supplying China, infrastructure being built to connect Pakistan and China wouldn't have left the drawing board. Besides, the Chinese are also setting up their industries along the CPEC infrastructure - Chabahar doesn't come into play here.

For the purposes underlined above, the Chabahar route is more expensive and longer. Chabahar may provide competition for supplying CAS and Europe, but that's not the primary purpose of CPEC.

Anyway, correct me if i'm wrong, but the infrastructural needs for Chabahar have a long way to go vis a vis Gwadar.
 
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You are mistaken here as well sir. AND it is not even about the cost yet. The logistics involved, the volumes transported, the infrastructure required all are and have always been in favor of sea routes.

You can't discuss that way without any numbers.

Take this as an example.
http://rbth.com/business/2015/06/16/china_launches_the_worlds_longest_freight_train_route_46921.html

Nops, this is not the case. In fact, they have taken a lot of pain in making those rivers feasible for barges. It is purely cost and logistics related. Also please note that the rail route would have surely created much much more jobs. A ship carrying 20000 container will need 400 trains carrying 50 container each to transport the same volume. You can easily figure out what will create more jobs if you want to.

That's a wrong way to compare. One ship may carry more when it comes to long distances. But 20,000 trucks can also carry the same as a large container ship. Ultimately, what matters more is the time it takes to reach a destination when you use a faster means of transport for particular goods. For example, an electronics company would prefer a faster means of transport even if it is more expensive, like air cargo, if it means it can get its products to consumers sooner because when they release products their biggest sales happen in a few weeks after release. They can't wait 50 days for it to travel all across the world.

That link above shows the type of companies that plan to use rail transport. Their products are expensive, so the transportation costs are not as important as time. 15 days on land is better than 60 days in the sea for such companies.

But a coal company would prefer to use a ship because his per Kg profit is much lower than a car company.

That's why I said some companies would prefer using the Gwadar port versus the Chabahar port. Chabahar port provides massive road and rail advantages along with possible customs advantages versus Gwadar which will have capacity limits within Pakistan. Iran has an overall better rail and road connectivity than Pakistan. Iran transported more goods per kilometers even though their population is 2.5 times smaller than Pakistan's.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.RRS.GOOD.MT.K6

I meant to point out the fact that there is no free lunch in international relations. Isn't this what we are told time and time again in case of US-Pak and CHina Pak relations? The truth is that i agree with this in all these cases as well.

Yes, there are no free lunches, but in your case the Chinese are buying you lunch and eating yours. I already told you, what the Chinese are doing is giving you loans, what India is doing is making investments. Investments are always better than loans, they come in as FDI.

I have pointed you in the right direction a number of times, i told you about the geographic location, i mentioned the different roles both these ports are set to play. I mentioned the comparison of China vs India influence as well as Pakistan vs Afghanistan or Iran influence. I also pointed out that this is not a port-road network for us and there is a lot more to it then this. I mentioned the sea route vs rail/road link advantages/disadvantages. Sir i think i have given you all the points that you can study about to get the facts straight. However if you insist on drawing up the conclusion you were looking for from first post then it wont matter what i have said or tried to explain. I can just hope that you can study these points and see if it helps. Else, as said, we will just keep going round and round in circles.

And in exchange I gave you numbers.

China's or India's or even America's influence is pointless. What matters more is the way Iran or Pakistan attracts business from other countries by giving competitive rates and ease of bureaucracy. China can't influence another country to use the Silk Road because the people who use these trade routes are companies and individuals, not countries. They cannot be influenced with diplomacy, only money. So your only selling points are lower rates, ease of bureaucracy and in Pakistan's specific case, security.

Geographic location is not Pakistan's advantage either. What matters is connectivity. There's no point in being closer to China if all your trains are booked for months and the harsh terrain doesn't allow major expansion. China plans to connect itself to Europe through Tehran, not Islamabad.

If NSTC reduces the cost of goods travel by as much as 30% and time of travel by 40% compared to the Suez, then that's an incredible advantage to have. So I'm afraid your points don't stand against the numbers that I've presented.

I'm afraid that you think I have come to a conclusion based on some vague points, but that's not true. The advantage of Chabahar and NSTC rest on two simple facts. NSTC is cheaper than the Suez and Iran has better connectivity compared to Pakistan. That's about it. Everything else depends on how the trader goes about it.

For example, let's say an African company uses Gwadar to transport goods to China and Europe and he needs a ship with 10000 containers capacity. He would then need to get the goods cleared by Pak customs and then have them transported to China. But for the goods meant for Europe, he would have to get it cleared in Iran again. And this time, Iran may create conditions, like, higher transit fees from Pakistan and negligible transit fees from Chabahar. The goods have to travel through Iran anyway, so the African company may end up paying more if he goes through Gwadar. You can also say that he can split his goods into two, one to Europe via Iran and the other to China via Pakistan. But that would mean he would have to charter two different ships of lesser capacity which is more expensive than one ship. And he would have to pay port fees at two different ports.

It won't work the other way either, like a company uses Chabahar to then transport goods across Pakistan into China because Pak will reciprocate Iran's higher transit fees with higher fees of their own.

You see where I am going with this. If the African company uses Chabahar, he can split his goods in Iran and they can head to Europe or China using the Silk Road or NSTC, his choice. And Silk Road goods will have much lower transit fees and easier regulations than if the company had to move goods to Europe through the Pak-Iran route.

Unless a company is shipping goods only to China or Pakistan, I don't see any company being advantaged by Gwadar in any way.
 
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Geographic location is not Pakistan's advantage either. What matters is connectivity. There's no point in being closer to China if all your trains are booked for months and the harsh terrain doesn't allow major expansion. China plans to connect itself to Europe through Tehran, not Islamabad.

Uh nor it doesn't. China is connecting itself to eurpoe via the North corridor which passes through Russia. Besides, CPEC is addressing connectivity.

If NSTC reduces the cost of goods travel by as much as 30% and time of travel by 40% compared to the Suez, then that's an incredible advantage to have. So I'm afraid your points don't stand against the numbers that I've presented.

I'm afraid that you think I have come to a conclusion based on some vague points, but that's not true. The advantage of Chabahar and NSTC rest on two simple facts. NSTC is cheaper than the Suez and Iran has better connectivity compared to Pakistan. That's about it. Everything else depends on how the trader goes about it.

The primary purpose of CPEC (for China) is to:
1. supply their western regions
2. reduce costs and travel time for energy imports and minerals
3. Quicker and cheaper access to the gulf region from their western regions.

Middle East- Western China
Distance will be reduced by over 80%
Cost of transportation will be lowered over 75%
Time cut by over 85%

Not for trade with Europe. Besides, China has the North corridor for trade with Europe. It doesn't need Iran for that.


For example, let's say an African company uses Gwadar to transport goods to China and Europe and he needs a ship with 10000 containers capacity. He would then need to get the goods cleared by Pak customs and then have them transported to China. But for the goods meant for Europe, he would have to get it cleared in Iran again. And this time, Iran may create conditions, like, higher transit fees from Pakistan and negligible transit fees from Chabahar. The goods have to travel through Iran anyway, so the African company may end up paying more if he goes through Gwadar. You can also say that he can split his goods into two, one to Europe via Iran and the other to China via Pakistan. But that would mean he would have to charter two different ships of lesser capacity which is more expensive than one ship. And he would have to pay port fees at two different ports.

It won't work the other way either, like a company uses Chabahar to then transport goods across Pakistan into China because Pak will reciprocate Iran's higher transit fees with higher fees of their own.

You see where I am going with this. If the African company uses Chabahar, he can split his goods in Iran and they can head to Europe or China using the Silk Road or NSTC, his choice. And Silk Road goods will have much lower transit fees and easier regulations than if the company had to move goods to Europe through the Pak-Iran route.

Unless a company is shipping goods only to China or Pakistan, I don't see any company being advantaged by Gwadar in any way.

Your scenarios are amusing. You have based them upon hypotheticals (higher transit fees of Gwadar vs Chabahar) and you've forgotten the fact that transporting from Africa to China via Chabahar is LONGER than Gwadar (i'll let you look up a map for that).

The thing is, you're splitting hairs and don't know when to stop. I'll suggest to you exactly what you've implied to Arsalan: Leave the logistics scenarios to the companies conducting the trade.
 
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Uh nor it doesn't. China is connecting itself to eurpoe via the North corridor which passes through Russia. Besides, CPEC is addressing connectivity.

You don't seem to be aware of the One Belt One Road project.
https://www.clsa.com/special/onebeltoneroad/

maxresdefault.jpg


The Chinese have planned three corridors. One is the Trans-Siberian corridor, but that's mainly to prevent India from stopping shipping during a war. The second one is the Silk Road land route. The third the Maritime Silk Road. The CPEC and BCIM connect the two Silk Roads. Basically, the northern corridor to Russia is a backup. The main land corridor will be the Silk Road.

CPEC is nowhere near. It doesn't even touch Afghanistan.

The primary purpose of CPEC (for China) is to:
1. supply their western regions
2. reduce costs and travel time for energy imports and minerals
3. Quicker and cheaper access to the gulf region from their western regions.

I don't disagree.

Middle East- Western China
Distance will be reduced by over 80%
Cost of transportation will be lowered over 75%
Time cut by over 85%

Seems to be correct. NSTC does the same for India and Russia.

Not for trade with Europe. Besides, China has the North corridor for trade with Europe. It doesn't need Iran for that.

That's not what the Chinese believe. In any case, if the Tehran route flops, the backup for Iran is the NSTC which will connect Chabahar to the Northern Corridor, which will make Russia the hub, and that completely removes any sort of advantage to Gwadar because then companies will start using the NSTC straight to Russia. That will make Gwadar only a conduit to China.

thediplomat_2015-09-23_17-13-07.jpg


I think a lot of people are missing the point of Chabahar and NSTC. Basically, BCIM connects China to India. Then there's the internal Indian network which will consist of a vast network of high speed rails, which connects to Mumbai and which in turn connects to Chabahar, straight to Moscow and the EU. This route connects the whole of East, Southeast and South Asia to Europe. And this entire route bypasses CPEC.

Your scenarios are amusing. You have based them upon hypotheticals (higher transit fees of Gwadar vs Chabahar) and you've forgotten the fact that transporting from Africa to China via Chabahar is LONGER than Gwadar (i'll let you look up a map for that).

Maybe. But I have assumed that the longer distance is compensated by lower transit fees from Iran. The bigger advantage with the Silk Road is the use of a high speed rail versus the Pakistani transport network which is slower in comparison.

If, as a trader, you are worried about the distance and time, then the Mumbai-Kolkata to Kunming-Beijing route will be the same distance and faster. India will provide high speed access to more developed parts of China and Southeast Asia.

The thing is, you're splitting hairs and don't know when to stop. I'll suggest to you exactly what you've implied to Arsalan: Leave the logistics scenarios to the companies conducting the trade.

The issue here is, Arsalan doesn't seem to be seeing the advantage a company has when they use the Chabahar route over Gwadar. My point being, there is no global advantage to Gwadar, it is only for Pak-China trade, or any country that wants to trade with Pak-China.

You are missing the point of the Chinese projects too. Meaning, China is building various transit routes to and from China and CPEC is a very small part of that route. Gwadar is important for China's energy security, but that's about it. Their alternative routes are better in terms of infrastructure. And CPEC in particular goes through a disputed region, which is never good for business.
 
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You don't seem to be aware of the One Belt One Road project.
https://www.clsa.com/special/onebeltoneroad/


The Chinese have planned three corridors. One is the Trans-Siberian corridor, but that's mainly to prevent India from stopping shipping during a war. The second one is the Silk Road land route. The third the Maritime Silk Road. The CPEC and BCIM connect the two Silk Roads. Basically, the northern corridor to Russia is a backup. The main land corridor will be the Silk Road.

CPEC is nowhere near. It doesn't even touch Afghanistan.
Doesn't matter, Kashgar will be connected to Urumqi anyway - this isn't even a point.

That's not what the Chinese believe. In any case, if the Tehran route flops, the backup for Iran is the NSTC which will connect Chabahar to the Northern Corridor, which will make Russia the hub, and that completely removes any sort of advantage to Gwadar because then companies will start using the NSTC straight to Russia. That will make Gwadar only a conduit to China.

I think a lot of people are missing the point of Chabahar and NSTC. Basically, BCIM connects China to India. Then there's the internal Indian network which will consist of a vast network of high speed rails, which connects to Mumbai and which in turn connects to Chabahar, straight to Moscow and the EU. This route connects the whole of East, Southeast and South Asia to Europe. And this entire route bypasses CPEC.
Honestly, there are 6 corridors planned, each have a different purpose. I've already told you the purpose of CPEC for China. Those are the primary reasons - everything else (including trade with CARs, etc) is secondary.

1449545116751_en_470675.jpg

You see how most of them link up?

Maybe. But I have assumed that the longer distance is compensated by lower transit fees from Iran. The bigger advantage with the Silk Road is the use of a high speed rail versus the Pakistani transport network which is slower in comparison.

Ooo. Going by assumptions are we now? smh

And high speed rail for cargo? Are you f'ing kidding me?
Have you forgotten about Pakistan's ML-1 and ML-2 rail networks being upgraded?

If, as a trader, you are worried about the distance and time, then the Mumbai-Kolkata to Kunming-Beijing route will be the same distance and faster. India will provide high speed access to more developed parts of China and Southeast Asia.

That's not the purpose of CPEC. It's not being built for connection to developed parts of China! That's the secondary purpose! Primary is to connect the western regions of China as there's a push to get that area up to the level of the eastern parts.

The issue here is, Arsalan doesn't seem to be seeing the advantage a company has when they use the Chabahar route over Gwadar. My point being, there is no global advantage to Gwadar, it is only for Pak-China trade, or any country that wants to trade with Pak-China.

You are missing the point of the Chinese projects too. Meaning, China is building various transit routes to and from China and CPEC is a very small part of that route. Gwadar is important for China's energy security, but that's about it. Their alternative routes are better in terms of infrastructure.

I've already stated the purpose of CPEC for China. The advantages of Pakistan are manifold and of prime importance to Pakistan - it will act as an industry trigger for many industries in Pakistan and will lead to economic revitalization. Most infrastructue is already half built and in process of being completed - many other projects are in pipeline.

As for the global advantage - time will tell.

And CPEC in particular goes through a disputed region, which is never good for business.

As opposed to going through a belligerent state like Iran? You make me laugh,
 
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Honestly, there are 6 corridors planned, each have a different purpose. I've already told you the purpose of CPEC for China. Those are the primary reasons - everything else (including trade with CARs, etc) is secondary.

This has been my point all along. It's not a global trade route.

And high speed rail for cargo? Are you f'ing kidding me?
Have you forgotten about Pakistan's ML-1 and ML-2 rail networks being upgraded?

Yes. High speed rail for cargo. I think you are confusing high speed with super high speed which are bullet trains. For a freight corridor, you need to link up Pakistan with Kashgar with a rail link, expected only in 2030.

That's not the purpose of CPEC. It's not being built for connection to developed parts of China! That's the secondary purpose! Primary is to connect the western regions of China as there's a push to get that area up to the level of the eastern parts.

I agree.

I've already stated the purpose of CPEC for China. The advantages of Pakistan are manifold and of prime importance to Pakistan - it will act as an industry trigger for many industries in Pakistan and will lead to economic revitalization. Most infrastructue is already half built and in process of being completed - many other projects are in pipeline.

I agree.

As opposed to going through a belligerent state like Iran? You make me laugh,

This not a problem. Just because the US doesn't like Iran doesn't mean Russia and India don't like Iran either. As long as the security situation is stable, nothing will happen. And as mentioned before, as long as there is no war, there won't be any disruption to trade. Myanmar is much more belligerent than Iran, but they are not economically important, so there is no political importance to the country. And both India and China have good relations with Myanmar.

A disputed region is very much different from a belligerent country because such regions are a flashpoint for wars and has little place for realpolitik which can create a destabilizing environment. For example, if a foreign company says they want to use CPEC, the Indian govt may say that company will have to pay transit fees to India because it goes through Indian territory. Do you see my point?
 
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This has been my point all along. It's not a global trade route.
It's part of one and that's all that matters. The gulf or Africa wants to trade with China - most ideal route is Gwadar.


Yes. High speed rail for cargo. I think you are confusing high speed with super high speed which are bullet trains. For a freight corridor, you need to link up Pakistan with Kashgar with a rail link, expected only in 2030.

Well yeah - be clear next time. ML-1 is being upgraded to high speed (160 km/h) and that will be completed by 2019. From there on: Motorway -> KKH


I agree.

I agree.

You agree now, but you were all over the place before.

This not a problem. Just because the US doesn't like Iran doesn't mean Russia and India don't like Iran either. As long as the security situation is stable, nothing will happen. And as mentioned before, as long as there is no war, there won't be any disruption to trade. Myanmar is much more belligerent than Iran, but they are not economically important, so there is no political importance to the country. And both India and China have good relations with Myanmar.

A disputed region is very much different from a belligerent country because such regions are a flashpoint for wars and has little place for realpolitik which can create a destabilizing environment. For example, if a foreign company says they want to use CPEC, the Indian govt may say that company will have to pay transit fees to India because it goes through Indian territory. Do you see my point?

I don't think that will happen. So let's agree to disagree.
 
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