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Iranian Chill Thread

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TheImmortal said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1508198723339362305

Seems the Kurds are having a tough time in Iraq lately :whistle:



https://twitter.com/x/status/1508147714315493383

Seems kind of sketchy, you are two armed Arab Israelis and you decide to stage a terrorist attack on a road?
Click to expand...
It's strange but it's an attack that resulted in deaths.

I hope they learned something there from that quadcopter attack. Small sized mountain warehouses in Kermanshah province, with an extending runway is needed.
 
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SalarHaqq said:
Well, it may sound "messy" to you, but I've yet to see you make a decisive counter-point.



Just a subjective impression stemming from subjective perception of Russian policy.



And yet, what I did was to address your comments paragraph for paragraph, in addition to actually setting some historic facts on the Iran-Iraq war straight which you appeared to have been misinformed on by western sources. As for self-contradiction, I will disagree.



I can't take this kind of ad hominem input very seriously in this discussion. Issuing outlandish accusations with no connection to what I actually wrote, likening proper fact-based analysis with "I"SIS behaviour... Implicitly equating Russia with Daesh. Come on please, in order to convince you'll need better arguments than that.



No. How about you?



May I remind you that you truncated Rahbar's quote to remove the part where he blasted the US as the actual source behind the conflict. And while he advocated peace, he did not call out Russia but the American regime as the responsible party. So I'd like to know what's insulting about debunking US-orchestrated propaganda relative to this war. Following the logic of Rahbar's words, doing so should contribute to neutralizing the very source of tensions in Ukraine, should it not?

And I must also remind you once again that those in Iran who are siding with Ukraine, are the same reformists who constitute the most skeptical and critical elements towards Rahbar. This right here is a fact, but sadly you seem not to be acknowledging it, nor to be explaining how it fits with your position.



Those videos you shared, and which I commented one by one, were from the pro-Ukrainian side. And for God's sake, they included scenes of tear gas or some other non-lethal rounds being fired towards protesters, and this being then disingenuously portrayed as some sort of a terrible crime! I mean, had you carefully watched these particular ones before sharing them?

Yes, two of them were showing real civilian casualties, and my first reaction was to deplore the tragedy. However, as I explained you need more than just pictures of killed civilians to prove there's been a war crime. Otherwise, you might as well endorse terrorist propaganda during the Syrian war, where plenty of such tragic cases were shown and presented as proof that the Syrian government and its allies have a policy of systematically and deliberately wiping out civilian populations, when in fact, these civilians could as well have fallen simply because they had the bad luck of being located too close to terrorist elements when a strike took place whose intention it was to hit terrorists, not civilians.



Please go ahead and show us the evidence that these were the actual targets of Russian strikes. You understand that civilians were killed in the Iran-Iraq war on both sides, during the Syrian was as well, and so on. Because zero civilian casualties unfortunately is practically impossible to achieve in a conflict of this scale, especially in urban settings.

What makes you a criminal is not just the civilian losses per se, you become a criminal if you are targeting civilians directly, with the aim of killing them, or if you are completely negligent and don't care about their presence in the vicinity of military targets you hit. So since you are of the belief Russia killed them on purpose and that it was not a case of undesired collateral damage, please share with us your evidence to this effect. I would genuinely like to see it.



Kindly don't alter my words. Nowhere did I claim I don't care, I asked for undeniable evidence of large scale massacres of civilians at the hands of Russian armed forces, because I have not seen such, even when consulting Ukrainian sources. What I have seen though, are several fraudulent allegations that were definitely shown to be wrong - like that Ukrainian APC crushing a car, with the APC being falsely passed off as Russian. So I'm waiting for and am open to any solid evidence. Why should I not be entitled to skepticism so long as there's no definitive evidence, but mostly hearsay and claims by NATO and their supporters, which in the past were proven to be baseless in so many cases?

This aside, if my independent country chose to join NATO or anything along those lines, it would mean that it sold out its independence, and I would staunchly oppose such a move. Especially knowing NATO's sinister designs for my country. If this led to war, then I'd not just denounce the aggressor, but I'd also be clear about the fact that a traitor sell out government in my own country unnecessarily brought this upon us. Thank God that's something the Islamic Republic will never do as long as liberals are kept away from key institutions such as Leadership, IRGC etc.

By the way, what's your stance on the mass killings of communists, socialists, purported communists and socialists as well as their sympathizers after the 1965 coup in Indonesia, where up to 1,5 millions civilians, including women, young girls and boys, elderly were massacred extra-judicially by the military, as well as by mobs which at times were deploying near "I"SIS-level violence, with American, European and even Isra"el"i help? Just curious to know.
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As I've guessed you don't have enough courage to honestly answer my question. You only answered question #1 firmly, while some of the other questions you did not dare to answer and some of your answers were vague, unclear and impressed to avoid questions with answers that were too far from the point of the question.

I give you another chance to answer my question with a clear yes/no or are you afraid to answer it with a clear yes/no? just say it honestly and in writing, I'm not forcing you if you don't dare.

- Are you neutral on the Ukraine vs Russia war? (You have answered firmly, NO / not neutral)

- Are you Khomeinism or Putinism? (Just answer this is Khomeinism or Putinism, don't avoid it by mixing other answers)

- Are you insulting Rahbar's neutrality towards the Ukrainian-Russian war? (Yes No)

- Do you think you are fair or smart by only seeing or believing Russian/Putin propaganda news and not looking at the Ukrainian side of the news? (do you think it's fair/not)

- What is your religion? If you are Muslim, did Prophet Muhammad SAW ever order to kill civilians, women, children and those of different religions? (Has the prophet ever ordered something like that, yes/no)

- Which country were you born in? If your independent country chooses to join NATO and then Russia attacks your country, massacres your people, bombs your children, wife, parents, seizes your territory and then your country becomes a puppet of Russia/Putin, would you still 'don't care ' and will allow it? (Do you not care or care).

Please answer everything clearly!
Below I will respond to some of your 'cold-blooded' statements.


So the video above about barbaric Russian soldiers shooting a car containing this grandparents pair you think is just a "tragedy" not a 'war crime'?! poor grandparents.

You don't even seem to have watched the full video below:


try to start looking at 7.15 minutes where many Ukrainian civilian bodies have been shot by Putin's soldiers.

Will you 'REPENT' (stop lick*ng Putin) if I give you some video evidence of Putin's army savagery?! (I hope you are not lying, because you are not neutral and you have been brainwashed by your lord Putin).

See all the videos below, watch until the end.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1505584595626086406

https://twitter.com/x/status/1499002693985128450

https://twitter.com/x/status/1498548810859098112

https://twitter.com/x/status/1503805848644210702

https://twitter.com/IvanCNN/status/1507460421975887874?t=9JsVthVYS9GglckCkBDiaw&s=19

https://twitter.com/ALPOT/status/1500512735666348032?t=czjsV5gtm8xgxKratSUBxg&s=19

https://youtu.be/Mb3_R__r7Go

https://youtu.be/rHxW7vO04mM

https://youtu.be/riF1szCa6Ho
 
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SalarHaqq said:
By the way, what's your stance on the mass killings of communists, socialists, purported communists and socialists as well as their sympathizers after the 1965 coup in Indonesia, where up to 1,5 millions civilians, including women, young girls and boys, elderly were massacred extra-judicially by the military, as well as by mobs which at times were deploying near "I"SIS-level violence, with American, European and even Isra"el"i help? Just curious to know.
Click to expand...

Hei, dont add anything if you dont have credible source on it, where you get the women, young girls, and boys are killed during 1965 communist massacre in Indonesia ?

Indonesian Muslim stance is clear which is we condemn 1965 purge on Communist follower and sympatizer, that is something which is against what Islam teaches to us.

That period is crucial, Soekarno wanted to weaponize 1 million Communist to help him in his campaign to invade Malaysia where we have to fight coalition of Commonwealth countries ( British, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand). Our military wanted to make coup to avoid possible civil war between Army (controlled by right wing anti Communist Generals) vs 1 million Communist with weapon and military training, but Communist sniffed the plan and killed almost all the planners, but Armed Force General is AlhamduliLLAH escape, Abdul Haris Nasution, but sadly his little girl is killed by Communist.

Ade Irma Nasution is killed by Communist, that is fact, the little one

1648452201010.png


Some of the Communist killers have open their mouth and confessed, no such thing like killing women and kids LOL. That is not like war when you can shell and bombed civilian in densely populated Syrian residential region. It is targeted killing since it is not that difficult to find the name of Communist members in Indonesia because the Communist Party have been closed and all of the data have been captured by Army.

Communist have also been in our Armed Force, but Right wings Generals made a quick respond to banished the Communist Party and the left wing power in our Armed Force. Military respond by Kostrad (Airborne Army unit) Commander at that time, General Soeharto, who was helped by Army Special Force, Kopassus, and also Siliwangi troops who has huge experience in combating rebel in West Java (DI/TII).

The number 1.5 million is just Western people assumption despite the killing did exist. They like to exagerate any negative thing in Indonesia, including the number of Chinese Indonesian killed during 1998 riot, where the numbers are much much lower than that. The independent fact finding for that 1998 riot is chaired by Marzuki Darusman, respected Indonesian world wide who also become UN fact finding Chairman on Myanmar. Most of the victims are native Indonesians who are trapped in Malls where rioters burn the mall.
 
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Stryker1982 said:
www.reuters.com

EXCLUSIVE Iran struck Iraq target over gas talks involving Israel - officials

A nascent plan for Iraq's Kurdistan region to supply gas to Turkey and Europe - with Israeli help - is part of what angered Iran into striking the Kurdish capital Erbil with ballistic missiles this month, Iraqi and Turkish officials say.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Doesn’t make much sense. Iran barely has enough excess gas to send to other countries. Most of its Nat gas is consumed by itself by local population. It needs lots of investment to become a natural gas supergiant exporter especially in LNG

So attacking Erbil with 12 (I repeat 12) missiles for something so economically petty at this point, is a bit illogical.
 
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Mata Elang said:
As I've guessed you don't have enough courage to honestly answer my question. You only answered question #1 firmly, while some of the other questions you did not dare to answer and some of your answers were vague, unclear and impressed to avoid questions with answers that were too far from the point of the question.
Click to expand...

More ad hominems. What ad hominems do, is to suggest that the person resorting to them has no substantial arguments to counter with.

Mata Elang said:
Please answer everything clearly!
Click to expand...

My answers were clear. Perhaps you should read them again.

Mata Elang said:
Below I will respond to some of your 'cold-blooded' statements.


So the video above about barbaric Russian soldiers shooting a car containing this grandparents pair you think is just a "tragedy" not a 'war crime'?! poor grandparents.
Click to expand...

You dodged the challenge: before drawing conclusions, please prove to us that the shooters were Russians. Please provide irrefutable evidence that they fired with the intention of killing civilians. Oh I see, you don't have any evidence, which is why you must resort to shallow rhetoric.

You just seem to assume every allegation from NATO apologists against Russia has to be truthful. Which is, in fact, a misleading way of looking at things, because earlier accusations of the same kind were proven to be either uncertain or outright false.

Here's an example: the footage of the APC which crushed a civilian car in Kiev. Immediately presented as a "Russian war crime" by anti-Russian media, including major western newspapers such as the UK's Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553849/Russian-tank-DELIBERATELY-crushes-car-driving-opposite-road-Ukraine-elderly-driver.html

But as indications to the contrary started to emerge, they went into damage control mode. With USA Today, for instance, calling into question that the APC was actually Russian: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/02/28/fact-check-video-russian-tank-hitting-car-kyiv-lacks-context/6953727001/

So either you can show us hard evidence that the elderly couple was murdered by Russian troops, and that their killers had full knowledge that these were but harmless civilians, or you're wasting your time.

Mata Elang said:
You don't even seem to have watched the full video below:


try to start looking at 7.15 minutes where many Ukrainian civilian bodies have been shot by Putin's soldiers.
Click to expand...

Video doesn't play.

Mata Elang said:
Will you 'REPENT' (stop lick*ng Putin) if I give you some video evidence of Putin's army savagery?! (I hope you are not lying, because you are not neutral and you have been brainwashed by your lord Putin).

See all the videos below, watch until the end.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1505584595626086406

https://twitter.com/x/status/1499002693985128450

https://twitter.com/x/status/1498548810859098112

https://twitter.com/x/status/1503805848644210702

https://twitter.com/IvanCNN/status/1507460421975887874?t=9JsVthVYS9GglckCkBDiaw&s=19

https://twitter.com/ALPOT/status/1500512735666348032?t=czjsV5gtm8xgxKratSUBxg&s=19

https://youtu.be/Mb3_R__r7Go

https://youtu.be/rHxW7vO04mM

https://youtu.be/riF1szCa6Ho
Click to expand...

Do you get the fundamental difference between collateral, unintended damage caused to civilians in urban fighting on the one hand, which is not a war crime, and deliberate targeting of non-combatants on the other?

Three of these videos won't play, but I watched all others: not a single one contains evidence of deliberate and conscious attacks on civilians. Victims shown may have taken damage hit collaterally, with Russian forces firing at known Ukrainian military positions, or what they had reason to believe were Ukrainian military positions, and civilians whose presence in the vicinity was not known to the Russians also getting hit in the process. Some of these videos are just showing explosions, and it isn't even clear what exactly was struck.

In the last one, taken from a CNN report, the mother of the injured girl states that when they saw Russian soldiers, they made a sudden u-turn and drove away, and that this was when the Russians opened fire on their car. She adds that they then stopped the car, stepped out of it, and heard the Russian troops shout something at them. Now if these troops were intending to randomly kill some Ukrainian civilians, why did they not fire at this family after they halted and left their car, and were standing on the road? Why was the Ukrainian family left alone at that point? This suggests that the reason soldiers directed shots at the car in the first place, was because of the panicked turnaround it had operated, which in turn caused the soldiers to get suspicious of the vehicle and open fire. On an average day in America, let alone in a situation of war, US security forces and police will kill for less than that.

The fact that Ukrainian militias have not just been taking position in densely populated areas, but have at times prevented residents from leaving as per reports (especially in locations populated by the Russian-speaking minority), and have positioned troops and weaponry inside civilian buildings from where they didn't hesitate to take aim at Russian forces, certainly doesn't help to keep non-combatant losses low. There are strong indications and evidence to this effect, some of which was posted in this thread, look it up.

Now if you can't make sense of this, or are somehow too insensitive to acknowledge it, reposting the same material and rehashing the same allegations aren't going to make your contention any more credible.

Hard evidence is something like the leaked sequence recorded by Australian troops, where they can be seen executing unarmed Afghan civilians. That is an example of irrefutable proof of a war crime; as opposed to the type of material published by supporters of the Ukrainian regime and NATO. Your contention is no different from the accusations leveled against Syria by apologists of the terrorist insurgents. They showed many more images of dead women and children, and claimed these had all been deliberately massacred by government forces.

By the way, the first document you posted is accompanied by the following text:
"80% of Russians support the war in Ukraine. The Russian people are cruel, aggressive and unable to think rationally."

Gutter level racism. Tells us something about the kind of mindset one may find within the pro-Ukrainian camp.

Last but not least, it is reported that between the signing of the 2014 Minsk Agreement and the start of this war, some 14.000 citizens, essentially Russian-speakers, were massacred in the Donbas as a consequence of random shelling by Ukrainian (para)military units. Aren't these Russian-speakers deserving of our compassion too? Will you be objective enough and measure the Ukrainian regime by the same yardstick you apply to Russia, and will you therefore announce that the Ukrainian regime is evil, in keeping with your previous terminology?

By the way, you didn't clarify your stance on the 1965 wanton massacres of civilians in Indonesia.

- - - - -

Indos said:
Hei, dont add anything if you dont have credible source on it, where you get the women, young girls, and boys are killed during 1965 communist massacre in Indonesia ?
Click to expand...

My question was directed at user Mata Elang, because they were invoking moral considerations in order to condemn Russia, and so it'd be interesting to see whether they'll apply the same standards to the events which took place in Indonesia.

But since you quoted me, here are three publications that make mention of violence against women in the course of these events:

* Tarzie Vittachi, The Fall of Sukarno, 1967, Andre Deutsch Ltd.

* Vincent Bevins, The Jakarta Method: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World, 2020, PublicAffairs.

* "Sexual slander of Gerwani revealed; the story of Atikah - Jamilah and Jemilah", https://www.tribunal1965.org/sexual...aled-the-story-of-atikah-jamilah-and-jemilah/

The first book describes how in the early stages of the operation on Bali, 50.000 civilians including women and children were massacred right away, sometimes while fleeing their homes. As as a result, the population in several Balinese villages is said to have halved.

In the second one, pp. 215-216 it is indicated that "detainees were sometimes forced to watch or listen to the torture of others, including relatives such as spouses or children. Both men and women were subjected to sexual violence while in detention, including rape and electric shocks to the genitals."

Moreover, multiple publications describe extensive repression against members of the Gerwani women's association. The third source cited above explains that "after 1965, most of the Gerwani members were killed, arrested, or imprisoned without trial for years. Gerwani members were frequently raped and then beaten to death or executed together with their entire families."

Indos said:
The number 1.5 million is just Western people assumption despite the killing did exist. They like to exagerate any negative thing in Indonesia,
Click to expand...

These same western sources like to exaggerate anything negative about Russia, and also to spread massive amounts of disinformation about the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.

- - - - -

Stryker1982 said:
www.reuters.com

EXCLUSIVE Iran struck Iraq target over gas talks involving Israel - officials

A nascent plan for Iraq's Kurdistan region to supply gas to Turkey and Europe - with Israeli help - is part of what angered Iran into striking the Kurdish capital Erbil with ballistic missiles this month, Iraqi and Turkish officials say.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Face saving. Look how many days it took them to come up with such a lame story.
 
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SalarHaqq said:
More ad hominems. What ad hominems do, is to suggest that the person resorting to them has no substantial arguments to counter with.



My answers were clear. Perhaps you should read them again.



You dodged the challenge: before drawing conclusions, please prove to us that the shooters were Russians. Please provide irrefutable evidence that they fired with the intention of killing civilians. Oh I see, you don't have any evidence, which is why you must resort to shallow rhetoric.

You just seem to assume every allegation from pro-NATO sources against Russia has to be truthful. Which is, in fact, a misleading way of looking at things, because earlier accusations of the same kind were proven to be either uncertain or outright false.

Here's an example: the footage of the APC which crushed a civilian car in Kiev.

Immediately presented as a "Russian war crime" by anti-Russian media, including major western newspapers such as the UK's Daily Mail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ing-opposite-road-Ukraine-elderly-driver.html

But as indications to the contrary started to emerge, they switched to damage control. With USA Today calling into question that the APC was actually Russian:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...nk-hitting-car-kyiv-lacks-context/6953727001/

So either you can show us hard evidence that the elderly couple was murdered by Russian troops, and that their killers had full knowledge that these were but harmless civilians, or we're wasting time.



Video doesn't play.



Do you get the difference between collateral, unintended damage to civilians in urban fighting on the one hand, which is not a war crime, and deliberate targeting of civilians on the other?

Three of these videos won't play, but I watched all the others: not a single one contains evidence of deliberate and conscious attacks on civilians. All of these may be collateral damage, with Russian forces firing at known Ukrainian military positions, or what they had reason to believe were Ukrainian military positions, with civilians whose presence in the vicinity was not known to the Russians getting hit in the process.

In the last one, taken from a CNN report, the mother of the injured girl states that when they saw Russian soldiers, they suddely made a u-turn and drove away, and that this was when the Russians opened fire on their car. She also says they then stopped the car, stepped out of it, and heard the Russian troops shout something at them. Now if these Russian troops were intending to randomly kill some Ukrainian civilians, why did they not fire at this family after they halted their car and stepped out of it? Why were they left alone at that point? This suggests that the reason soldiers directed shots at the car in the first place, was because of the panicked turnaround it operated, which in turn caused the soldiers to get suspicious of the vehicle and open fire.

The fact that Ukrainian militias have not just been stationing themselves in densely populated cities, but reportedly have prevented residents from leaving in certain cases (especially in locations populated by the Russian-speaking minority), and have positioned troops and weaponry inside civilian buildings from where they didn't hesitate to fire at Russian forces, certainly doesn't help to keep civilian casualties low. There's indications and evidence to this effect and some of it was posted in this thread, look it up.

Now if you can't make sense of this, or are somehow too insensitive to acknowledge it, then there's no point reposting the same material.

Hard evidence is something like the leaked sequence recorded by Australian troops, where they can be seen executing unarmed Afghan civilians. That is an example of irrefutable proof of a war crime; the type of material published by supporters of the Ukrainian regime and their NATO masters isn't. Your contention is no different from the accusations leveled against Syria and its allies by apologists of the terrorist insurgents, who showed many more images of dead women and children, and claimed that these had all been deliberately massacred by government forces.

By the way, the first document you posted is accompanied by the following text:

"80% of Russians support the war in Ukraine. The Russian people are cruel, aggressive and unable to think rationally."

Gutter level racism. Tells us something about the kind of mindset one may find within the pro-Ukrainian camp.

Last but not least, it is reported that between the signing of the 2014 Minsk Agreement and the start of this war, some 14.000 civilians, essentially Russian-speakers, were massacred in the Donbas as a consequence of random shelling by Ukrainian (para)military units. Aren't they too deserving of our compassion? Will you measure the Ukrainian regime by the same yardstick as Russia, and will you therefore announce that the Ukrainian regime is evil, in keeping with your previous terminology?

By the way, you didn't clarify your stance on the 1965 massacres of civilians in Indonesia.

- - - - -



My question was directed at Mata Elang, and I asked the user because they were invoking moral considerations in order to condemn Russia, and so it would be interesting to see whether they will apply the same moral standards to the events that took place in Indonesia.

But since you quoted me, here are three publications that make mention of violence against women during these events:

* Tarzie Vittachi, The Fall of Sukarno, 1967, Andre Deutsch Ltd.

* Vincent Bevins, The Jakarta Method: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World, 2020, PublicAffairs.

* "Sexual slander of Gerwani revealed; the story of Atikah - Jamilah and Jemilah", https://www.tribunal1965.org/sexual...aled-the-story-of-atikah-jamilah-and-jemilah/ .

The first book reports that in the course of the opening operation in Bali, 50.000 civilians including women and children were massacred right away, sometimes while fleeing their homes. As as a result, the population in several Balinese villages is said to have halved.

In the second one, pp. 215-216 it is indicated that "detainees were sometimes forced to watch or listen to the torture of others, including relatives such as spouses or children. Both men and women were subjected to sexual violence while in detention, including rape and electric shocks to the genitals."

Moreover, numerous publications describe extensive repression against members of the Gerwani women's association. The third source cited above explains that "after 1965, most of the Gerwani members were killed, arrested, or imprisoned without trial for years. Gerwani members were frequently raped and then beaten to death or executed together with their entire families."



These same western sources like to exaggerate anything negative about Russia, and also to spread massive amounts of disinformation on the current conflict in Ukraine.

- - - - -



Face saving. Look how many days it took them to come up with such a lame story.
Click to expand...
I think your mind is like a child who is easily brainwashed (I thought you would not repent, to stop worshiping putin no matter what).

Is it difficult to answer yes/no questions, then later you can add your reasons. You seem too cowardly to answer.

Whether you can't see and hear clearly or your heart is made of stone, the grandparents are ukraine, try opening or twisting your ears wide and listening to the people who helped evacuate the bodies of these grandparents.
Are you too stup*d not to be able to open youtube video content that has a "warning" sign, you have to login to confirm on YouTube first and then you can open this video.

The 3 youtube video are links, please just press the video later it appears on YouTube or you can copy the link and paste it on google. One of these videos is the first to see Russian soldiers shooting at the car where the father and son were traveling, one of them died.

I haven't answered your question regarding the "alleged" massacre of communist members during President Soekarno's time, it's because I think you seem to have lost the argument and are trying to find faults that have nothing to do with my time (I wasn't born at that time, id*ot!). I don't like (not a supporter) with all Indonesian Presidents, every presidential election I don't vote because I know most candidates don't have a good vision and mission. You don't know anything about Indonesian history. You don't know much about the atrocities of the PKI (abbreviation, the Indonesian communist party). Do you have a communist ideology? Did you know that communist ideology has caused more deaths on this planet than the 3 Evil Nazis, Zionists and Liberals combined. Below is a history of atrocities in 2 communist countries, namely China and the Soviet Union (Rusia).

1. Communist China
Can you name the greatest mass murderer of the 20th century? No, it wasn’t Hitler or Stalin. It was Mao Zedong.

According to the authoritative “Black Book of Communism,” an estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China. Anyone who got in his way was done away with -- by execution, imprisonment or forced famine.

For Mao, the No. 1 enemy was the intellectual. The so-called Great Helmsman reveled in his blood-letting, boasting, “What’s so unusual about Emperor Shih Huang of the China Dynasty? He had buried alive 460 scholars only, but we have buried alive 46,000 scholars.” Mao was referring to a major “accomplishment” of the Great Cultural Revolution, which from 1966-1976 transformed China into a great House of Fear.

The most inhumane example of Mao’s contempt for human life came when he ordered the collectivization of China’s agriculture under the ironic slogan, the “Great Leap Forward.” A deadly combination of lies about grain production, disastrous farming methods (profitable tea plantations, for example, were turned into rice fields), and misdistribution of food produced the worse famine in human history.

Deaths from hunger reached more than 50 percent in some Chinese villages. The total number of dead from 1959 to 1961 was between 30 million and 40 million -- the population of California.

Rounding up enemies

Only five years later, when he sensed that revolutionary fervor in China was waning, Mao proclaimed the Cultural Revolution. Gangs of Red Guards -- young men and women between 14 and 21 -- roamed the cities targeting revisionists and other enemies of the state, especially teachers.

Professors were dressed in grotesque clothes and dunce caps, their faces smeared with ink. They were then forced to get down on all fours and bark like dogs. Some were beaten to death, some even eaten -- all for the promulgation of Maoism. A reluctant Mao finally called in the Red Army to put down the marauding Red Guards when they began attacking Communist Party members, but not before 1 million Chinese died.

All the while, Mao kept expanding the laogai, a system of 1,000 forced labor camps throughout China. Harry Wu, who spent 19 years in labor camps, has estimated that from the 1950s through the 1980s, 50 million Chinese passed through the Chinese version of the Soviet gulag. Twenty million died as a result of the primitive living conditions and 14-hour work days.

Such calculated cruelty exemplified his Al Capone philosophy: “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.”

2. Communist Uni Soviet (Rusia)

Stalin’s extremely brutal 30-year rule as absolute ruler of the Soviet Union featured so many atrocities, including purges, expulsions, forced displacements, imprisonment in labor camps, manufactured famines, torture and good old-fashioned acts of mass murder and massacres (not to mention World War II) that the complete toll of bloodshed will likely never be known. Even worse, the consequences of his iron-fist ruling and terrible policies shaped the world forever, even being a domino piece in the current increased probability of nuclear war, in some sort of torment butterfly effect

An amoral psychopath and paranoid with a gangster’s mentality, Stalin eliminated anyone and everyone who was a threat to his power – including (and especially) former allies. He had absolutely no regard for the sanctity of human life.
But how many people is he responsible for killing?

In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million.

''It's important that they published it, although the numbers themselves are horrible,'' Medvedev told the New York Times at the time.
''Those numbers include my father.''
Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953.

Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev’s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess.
Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million.
Most other estimates from reputed scholars and historians tend to range from between 20 and 60 million.

In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.
In “Europe A History,” British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53, excluding wartime casualties.
Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, a Soviet politician and historian, estimated 35 million deaths.

Even some who have put out estimates based on research admit their calculations may be inadequate.
In his acclaimed book “The Great Terror: Stalin’s Purge of the Thirties,” Anglo-American historian Robert Conquest said: “We get a figure of 20 million dead [under Stalin], which is almost certainly too low and might require an increase of 50 percent or so.”
Quotes attributed to Stalin reflected his utter disregard for human life. Among other bons mots, he allegedly declared: “Death is the solution to all problems. No man -- no problem,” and “One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.”
Part of the problem with counting the total loss of life lies with the incompleteness and unreliability of Soviet records. A more troubling dilemma has to do with the fact that many some deaths – like starvation from famines – may or may not have been directly connected to Stalin’s policies.
In any case, if the figure of 60 million dead is accurate that would mean that an average of 2 million were killed during each year of Stalin’s horrific reign – or 40,000 every week (even during “peacetime”).
If the lower estimate of 20 million is the true number, that still translates into 1,830 deaths every single day.
Thus, Stalin’s regime represented a machinery of killing that history – excluding, perhaps, China under Chairman Mao Tse-Tung -- has never witnessed.
 
. . .

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