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Iranian Chill Thread

you piece of goh
lol , looks like someone knows farsi :lol:

dude , look . i'm a kurd and you insult me and my people on a daily basis , i understand your anger completely thats why i've never responded to your comments about kurds .

bro , you see kurds as the ones who are trying to separate from Iraq and who are constantly trying to further destablize Iraq .

i understand your concerns and i think you're right . but mate , kurds were among the first people who put foot on this grounds . kurds are medes people dating back to thousands of years ago .

you've gotta view it from their perspective : saddam killed hundreds of thousands of them and ISIS is doing the same now . they have been killed and murdered literally by everyone . now this doesn't give them the right to pull the shyte they are pulling right now and i agree with you .

but calling them/us mountain goats is very insulting

in Shiraz I have reached 22mb/s with 3/4 antenna.
of course .

tehran , shiraz , esfehan , mashhad , tabriz .

these are cities who have agha balasar . we poor people in the western Iran who have fought 8 years of war , we get 300 kb/s .

all of you are bache sosools :D

22 mb/s ? ? are you kidding me ?

another war breaks out and guess whose there to defend the country ? of course not you bache soosools . but us people of kermanshah who watch youtube videos at 480P quality .

:A :B :C :D :E :F
 
i'm a kurd

Are Yazidis also Kurds or something different?

Why are they not fighting back like your guys (and girls :tup:)?

Do the Kurds wants a separate Kurdish state carved only from Iraq or does it involve Iranian territory as well (like the Baloch of Pakistan for instance)?
 
Are Yazidis also Kurds or something different?

Why are they not fighting back like your guys (and girls :tup:)?

Do the Kurds wants a separate Kurdish state carved only from Iraq or does it involve Iranian territory as well (like the Baloch of Pakistan for instance)?
Well yazidis are also kurds and theyare also fighting back . I saw many pics of yazidi girls preparing to fight and getting trained.

The situation regarding separatist movement of kurds is absurd . There are many kurdswho want it and who fight for it and there are many who are strongly against it . Take previous Iraqi president as an example. Jalal talebani fought very hard to unit his country rather than causing problems for it

Kurds normally seek separation when they are treated badly and are discriminated against . But the number of kurds who have that noble cause is not high

Most of the separatists in Iraq are just being opportunist assholes. They don't seek those noble causes rather they are fighting for more money to fill their pockets.

But all in all , i think separatist movements and sentiments in iraq are much milder than turkey for example . Cause iraqi government is doing all it can to soothe the pain iraqi kurds are suffering. Turkey is not
Iran witnessed same problems some 30 years ago due to unjust behavior of shah
Now fortunately we don't see any such movement in iran

Why ? Cause kermanshah the most populated kurdish city in iran for example was almost destroyed during the war

Now its one of the major and biggest qnd most advanced cities of iran .
 
Thanks @haman10

I did not know that Kurds were spread over into Turkey as well.

What is the Kurdish mother tongue?
 
forever.
----------------------------------
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Cheghad yehoyi ! :sad:
Man ke az vojoodet kheyli estefade kardam dadash . Shad o salamat o movafagh bashi harja ke hasti . age toonesti har az gahi ye sar bezan be inja . natoonesti ham chizio az dast nadadi ( saadeghaane ) :lol: . :P Khoda hamraat dadash
 
I was not presenting alternative realities, but the reality of India almost completely under Maratha hegemony and the dominant power in the subcontinent when the British came.

This was in response to your and Atanz's position that were the British not to have come and colonized India, an Indian entity such as the present would not infact have been forged or existed, and India would have been "balkanized."

The irony inherent to that argument being that to "balkanize" something, that something needs to have existed as a single monolithic entity in the first place, a priori.

The reason I was inclined towards the balkanization theory put forward by @Atanz , was India's reality both now and then. British came to India when there was no mass communication, no telegraph or radio wireless communication and no railway. Yet just a few hundred British Military Officers managed to rule India for couple of centuries. This would not have been the case if India was united and a solidified single entity. Without the establishment of democracy, rule of law, modern military structures and a robust bureaucratic system based on merit and loyalty to state, India would not have survived as an entity it is today. All these were British gifts to India. Otherwise without these structures, India was a collection of small kingdoms.

India is not a monolithic country. There are too many languages (several hundreds), ethnicity (several hundreds), religions (dozen major ones), and castes. To bring all these together under a single state, a very sophisticated, centrally powerful and inclusive political structure was needed. I do not believe Marathas, a warrior caste of Hindus could form a stable India using only Hindu ideology and military power. This would not have survived into modern times. As IT DID NOT. Would have Sikh community accepted them? What about Muslims? What about Buddhists? What about other Hindu castes? What about Parsis and Iranis?

To build a unified and stable state out of a non-monolithic nation, you need a political structure that goes well above and beyond a single caste and is based on rule of law and respect for individual rights of every person. Ironically British provided the tools for creation of such a state in India. Whether it was their intention to do so or it happened just as a side effect of their colonialism, is a question better be left for historians to answer. But the reality of this, is not in dispute. Therefore my inclination towards balkanization. You can not seriously expect a single Hindu caste to rule over 1.5 billion people successfully and in a stable fashion.

We could do with your services in India. A variety of enchanting possibilities present themselves, after reading your post.

Mmmm. What possibilities? :agree:
 
I was speaking more as civilizations an less as Hindu or Muslim controlled sir. So definitely not constraining the question to just the last millennium, but more longer-term, for the historically chronicled durations of both these civilizations.

And geographically I believed it would have been more the Hindu Kush as the demarcating feature (than the Indus), with the area betwixt the buffer region of civilizational ebb and flow and lineage admixuture if you will.

Further south, such was not the case, with the Persian footprint over much of Baluchistan/Sistan, all the way to the port of Makaran.

Again, my history academics stopped in the 10th standard. After that I was a science student. The history I gleaned beyond then is from my participation on forums and discussions with people like you and largely self taught through reading while debating. So no hesitation in putting myself out there to either be given a pat or a chop, from someone who is just a decade younger than my own dad. :)

You have a knack for asking difficult questions.

When you put it the way you have put it, I honestly would not like to take a fixed view of any kind; there are lots of interpretations. Let's look at it this way: looked at in civilization-wide terms, could we allocate Baluchistan, Makran within it, Sindh and Multan to either side in a definitive manner? Could we so assign the cis-montane territories of the north-west frontier (so called) and the Punjab, and Kashmir as well? Are these two categories really two categories, or are all six part and parcel of the same riddle? Bluntly, can we say about any of the six, individually, that they belonged to Iran or that they belonged to India? Can we also, in partitioning them between the two over-arching cultures, be robbing the situation of the necessary shades of grey that would constitute a third intermediate borderland culture (the Indus Man theory made famous by Aitzaz Ahsan)?

I don't know if a precise demarcation exists. The answers to the questions posed above would be the collective answer to your question.

What is my stand on this? I don't know.

The reason I was inclined towards the balkanization theory put forward by @Atanz , was India's reality both now and then. British came to India when there was no mass communication, no telegraph or radio wireless communication and no railway. Yet just a few hundred British Military Officers managed to rule India for couple of centuries. This would not have been the case if India was united and a solidified single entity. Without the establishment of democracy, rule of law, modern military structures and a robust bureaucratic system based on merit and loyalty to state, India would not have survived as an entity it is today. All these were British gifts to India. Otherwise without these structures, India was a collection of small kingdoms.

India is not a monolithic country. There are too many languages (several hundreds), ethnicity (several hundreds), religions (dozen major ones), and castes. To bring all these together under a single state, a very sophisticated, centrally powerful and inclusive political structure was needed. I do not believe Marathas, a warrior caste of Hindus could form a stable India using only Hindu ideology and military power. This would not have survived into modern times. As IT DID NOT. Would have Sikh community accepted them? What about Muslims? What about Buddhists? What about other Hindu castes? What about Parsis and Iranis?

To build a unified and stable state out of a non-monolithic nation, you need a political structure that goes well above and beyond a single caste and is based on rule of law and respect for individual rights of every person. Ironically British provided the tools for creation of such a state in India. Whether it was their intention to do so or it happened just as a side effect of their colonialism, is a question better be left for historians to answer. But the reality of this, is not in dispute. Therefore my inclination towards balkanization. You can not seriously expect a single Hindu caste to rule over 1.5 billion people successfully and in a stable fashion.



Mmmm. What possibilities? :agree:

Two things: your searching look at the Indian condition deserves a well-thought through answer, and I hope that this will be possible to furnish over the next couple of days.

Second, regarding the possibilities. I put it to you that an American drone is 'acquired' over territory that it regularly services. That 'acquired' drone then follows a path over Mirpur, Baltistan and Ladakh, and move in further east, all the way up to Lhasa. More on the lights coming back on.
 
The reason I was inclined towards the balkanization theory put forward by @Atanz , was India's reality both now and then.

Let us look at the arguments in greater detail.

British came to India when there was no mass communication, no telegraph or radio wireless communication and no railway. Yet just a few hundred British Military Officers managed to rule India for couple of centuries. This would not have been the case if India was united and a solidified single entity. Without the establishment of democracy, rule of law, modern military structures and a robust bureaucratic system based on merit and loyalty to state, India would not have survived as an entity it is today. All these were British gifts to India. Otherwise without these structures, India was a collection of small kingdoms.

This takes into account only what we remember from reading about modern Indian history, so-called, sometimes defined as the history of India from 1707 to 1947, or to current times. If we take earlier periods into account, we find a similar, rather strikingly similar picture. For instance, the number of functionaries during the Maurya imperial rule who played the equivalent role of the British civil service and British military officers who turned their hand to both military matters and to civilian administration, the dharma mahamatyas, was roughly the same as the ICS. Incidentally, quite parallel to the British achievement in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the Mauryas established a uniform administration (democracy was not established by the British; the mangled versions of self-rule contained in the 1919 Morley-Minto reforms which led to dyarchy and even the 1935 Government of India Act were so heavily restricted by property qualifications that they amounted to nothing much more than the creation of a cooperative oligarchy that worked with the hegemons). There is little to choose between the Maurya administration and the British, if we look at it from a distance, other than the fact that the handing over of power by the imperial administration to the successor administration was violent in the earlier case, and was repressed violence in the later case.

India was ruled perfectly well without the British gifts, not only by the Mauryas, but by the Guptas, the Chalukyas, the Rastrakutas, the Cholas, and later still, the Khiljis, the Tughlaqs and the Mughals.

[/quote]India is not a monolithic country. There are too many languages (several hundreds), ethnicity (several hundreds), religions (dozen major ones), and castes. To bring all these together under a single state, a very sophisticated, centrally powerful and inclusive political structure was needed. I do not believe Marathas, a warrior caste of Hindus could form a stable India using only Hindu ideology and military power. This would not have survived into modern times. As IT DID NOT. Would have Sikh community accepted them? What about Muslims? What about Buddhists? What about other Hindu castes? What about Parsis and Iranis?[/quote]

This is more than a little puzzling.

First, the Marathas as used here refers to the Maratha confederacy, which included far more than the Marathas themselves. The leading families and the aristocracy were Maratha; so were the leading families and the aristocracy Turanian and Iranian under the Mughals, before the Marathas, and English, after the Marathas, with help from the Scots and the Irish and even the Welsh.

Second, how the idea crops up of the Marathas being exclusively Hindus in outlook is not clear. They were anything but the kinds of bigots that today's Hindutva-vadis are. Just to remind you, the artillery was served by Ibrahim Gardi and his band of gunners, hardly poster boys for Hindu domination. The founder of Maratha power, Shivaji Bhonsle, was exemplary about employing people who were not Hindus, and his lead was followed.

Getting down to other communities, the Hindus supported them, generally; there were always opportunists who took the other side. The Muslims under their rule did not fail to cooperate, but Muslims elsewhere fought them, as is only to be expected in a system of warfare where the prevalent principle was vae victis. For that matter, the Rajputs and the Jats, and many other Hindu kingdoms fought them before succumbing. You will recall that rather a similar state of affairs prevailed while the West Saxons were consolidating their power in Britain against Mercia, Cumbria and Wales.

The Sikhs were not a significant power at the time, and their militarisation happened largely because of persecution by the administration in the Punjab. Earlier, they were very largely Khatri, traders and men of commerce, as were all the Gurus. The Buddhists existed in Nepal and in the Himalayan foothills, while the Parsis were a minuscule number then, as they (unfortunately) are now. The Iranis? If you are referring to the second wave of Zoroastrians, the wave was not yet due, and if you are referring to ethnic Iranians, they responded much the same way as the other Muslims: submissive when conquered, offering resistance before that. There is no known example of a Turkish, Iranian or Indian revolting against the Marathas.

To build a unified and stable state out of a non-monolithic nation, you need a political structure that goes well above and beyond a single caste and is based on rule of law and respect for individual rights of every person. Ironically British provided the tools for creation of such a state in India. Whether it was their intention to do so or it happened just as a side effect of their colonialism, is a question better be left for historians to answer. But the reality of this, is not in dispute.

Political structure well above and beyond a single caste is more than satisfied by the Maratha Empire, from all the evidence abounding. It was not their fault that a later lunatic fringe painted them in saffron colours, the colour of their battle flag, and appropriated all their achievements to Hinduism.

I am not able to understand why a rule of law was not considered to be prevalent during Maratha rule, or for that matter, during earlier Mughal rule or Tughlaq or Khilji or Gupta or Chalukya. If the reference to the rule of law was to the British court system, first, the legal system under the Mughals was also governed by qazis and their rulings, and second, the British system itself relied heavily on the services of local religious authorities.

Therefore my inclination towards balkanization. You can not seriously expect a single Hindu caste to rule over 1.5 billion people successfully and in a stable fashion.

Quite right too. Nobody actually did. Incidentally, just to pour a little cold water all around, patriotic songs of the period of agitation against British rule spoke of 330 million citizens. 1.5 billion took a lot of hard work to achieve, and said hard work continues as we read this. Besides, as pointed out, it was by no means a single Hindu caste that was involved. Please shoot your Indian history tutors and guides.

Mmmm. What possibilities? :agree:
 
@Daneshmand

Unfortunatley I have nothing but distilled contempt for India and conversely I have enormous respect for Iran. The latter puts me in a bind because I regard myself as a guest in this thread so I am handcuffed into behaving myself as I don't want this to derail under the impress of Pak/India rivalry.. We can open another thread to look at this issue in detail but just few thoughts on this.

(i) The Indian Republic you see today is entirely "Made in Britain".
(ii) The word "Balkanize" does not apply because as above poster stated there was never any whole to Balkanize before the British arrived. I don't blame Daneshmand as clearly he does not know much about South Asian history.
(iii) There has always been a geographic region like Europe, Scandanavia, Maghreb, Iberia etc called "India". Much as Europe there have been some common denomnators in South Asia above the two legs and two hands. However just because the geographic descriptor "Asia" or "Iberia" has been around for millenia if some states decided to arrogate those titles as names of political entities like "Iberian Republic" or "Asian Republic" would not mean that such entities existed for millenias just becuse the name Iberia or Asia has been thrown around for centuries.. Calling myself "Mohammed Ali" does not make me the boxer Ali or for that matter that I have been around for centuries just because the name "Ali" has been rolling around and used by differant people along the time span.
(iv) The maps given by the poster come cheaper by the dozen. Many people of artistic bent slap these fantasies as historical fact. You have take these maps with pinch of salt. If I throw some dye against the wall most of it will space out at point of impact. However drops will explode outwards in lesser amounts. Where do you draw the line showing impact? The maximalist line will even include that stray drop that ended outside on the footpath? The minimalist line that just occupies the actual area where the dye has full coverage?
(v) Both Pakistan and India are by products of British imperialism. They brought the physical nuts and bolts of a modern state, the social, legal, administrative systems that over century matured and took root in South Asia. The final arbitrar that underwrites both states is the respective armies on both sides of the border.
(vi) The British built up a incredibly efficient military system mostly based around regiments. These regiments tended to recruit from certain ethnic groups or regions. The most preferred groups were Pashtuns and Punjabi Muslims ( from todays Pakistan ) and Punjabi Sikhs ( from todays India). The former regiments went to make Pakistan Army the latter the Indian Army. Of course there are other groups recruited also to beef up the army but broadly speaking even in 2015 the pattterns the British set up still apply.
(vii) The efficient British adminstrative machine made men rise above their ethnic group and language. How effective this was can be seen in the British Indian Army [ note that was precursor to both modern Pak and Indian Armies ] in battle. In the war against Japanese units maintained loyalty around the regiment and many even died. The British system was so efficent that even under the most difficult circumstances men kept their loyalty toward their regiment.
(viii) This efficient apparatus ( involving civil, military, economic aspects ) was managed by few thousand "white sahibs" to rule over a huge continent that included on it's western marches East Iranic peoples ( Pashtun, Baloch ) to the east Burmese people ( modern Myanmar) to the the extreme south tip Dravidian (Telagu or Tamils) to the extreme north west ( Kalash, Chitrali's ) to Tibeto-Mongolians like Ladakh.



British Raj Flag >
125px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.png
> Trust me that is not the "Indian" flag.

British_Indian_Empire_1909_Imperial_Gazetteer_of_India.jpg


Today at least four countries occupy the space of the British Raj. Of course one has named itself as "India" but it is as much a successor state to the British Raj as the rest. If Joe had four sons, John, Joe, Peter, Andy it would not gove Joe junior any extra claims then the other three on the estate of Joe senior.

Map below of the prevailing reliogions of the British Raj. Pakistan is descernible as left green, Indian republic pink, Bangladesh right green and Burma ( Myanmarr ) yellow.

Brit_IndianEmpireReligions3.jpg




The British India evoved to today's Islamic Republic of Pakistan on the left, Indian Republic, Bangaldesh Republic and Myanmar ( Burma ) Republic on the right side. These are the four successor states to British India.

POLITICAL-MAPS-OF-INDIA-PAKISTAN-AND-BANGLADESH.jpg


images


British Raj Flag which came down in 1947.

600px-British_Raj_Red_Ensign.svg.png


British Raj - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Let us look at the arguments in greater detail.

Its ok as you wish.

You certainly are underestimating the influence British have had over the world and specially over India. And you are overestimating the capabilities of eastern nations to produce modern ruling structures. Even Iran which was not colonized at the end had to import Swedes, British, French and German advisers to set up modern governance structures. And no, I can not bring myself to believe that Marathas or for that matter anyone else including Sikhs or Muslims could produce anything resembling to the current India.

Despite much effort by British and later on by secular governments of successive India, the caste system still persists. So trying to implicate that Marathas had solved it all, is rather not consistent with truth we know of. I wish the Marathas could form a modern structure not only for India but also a role model for the rest of the world, but this is not the truth. As I had said earlier, it would make a great novel, but not much beyond that. I wish just like Islam need reforms to solve its problems, Hinduism could also reform itself and ditch the castes. But I know how difficult these things are.

Whether Muslims or Hindus or Sikhs or others we have problems we have not solved. Trying to bring in "patriotism" and alternate "realities" would actually impede progress towards solution of our problems. But obviously this is much more fun and much more easier to do than accepting reality and finding solutions.

Saying that if Marathas had survived or if Afshars had survived or if India had not been colonized or if Iran had been colonized are just good subjects for a "patriotic" novel. Wont do any good for the problems we are facing in the REAL world today.
 
@Daneshmand

Unfortunatley I have nothing but distilled contempt for India and conversely I have enormous respect for Iran. The latter puts me in a bind because I regard myself as a guest in this thread so I am handcuffed into behaving myself as I don't want this to derail under the impress of Pak/India rivalry.. We can open another thread to look at this issue in detail but just few thoughts on this.

Presumably these thoughts may be commented upon, without running the risk of showing lack of respect for Iran. Also without seeming to want to derail this under the impress of Pak/India rivalry.

(i) The Indian Republic you see today is entirely "Made in Britain".

It is interesting to read that statement with the subsequent one cited below. If the Indian Republic were entirely made in Britain, where were the other three made?

Today at least four countries occupy the space of the British Raj. Of course one has named itself as "India" but it is as much a successor state to the British Raj as the rest. If Joe had four sons, John, Joe, Peter, Andy it would not gove Joe junior any extra claims then the other three on the estate of Joe senior.

Map below of the prevailing reliogions of the British Raj. Pakistan is descernible as left green, Indian republic pink, Bangladesh right green and Burma ( Myanmarr ) yellow.

We have to bear in mind, of course, that the first three countries mentioned were all made in Britain, in Westminster, to be precise, under the Independence of India Act. Burma, or Myanmar, was separated out in 1937, and gained independence in 1948, again at British hands, so it is not quite clear why the Indian Republic that we see today was the only one entirely "Made in Britain".

Coming to the question of one that named itself India and it not having sufficient legitimacy, or the name being purely coincidental, that is answered rather easily by reading the India Independence Act. Perhaps the contempt was not distilled sufficiently to be of use in responding to these attitudes rooted in sibling rivalry.

(ii) The word "Balkanize" does not apply because as above poster stated there was never any whole to Balkanize before the British arrived. I don't blame Daneshmand as clearly he does not much about South Asia history.

@Daneshmand is not alone, obviously.

(iii) There has always been a geographic region like Europe, Scandanavia, Maghreb, Iberia etc called "India". Much as Europe there have been some common denomnators in South Asia above the two legs and two hands. However just because the geographic descriptor "Asia" or "Iberia" has been around for millenia if some states decided to arrogate those titles as names of political entities like "Iberian Republic" or "Asian Republic" would not mean that such entities existed for millenias. Calling myself "Mohammed Ali" does not make me the boxer Ali or for that matter that I have been around for centuries just because the name "Ali" has been rolling around and used by differant people along the time span.

Here we have an interesting study in lack of historical knowledge, or even knowledge of contemporary affairs.

The name India was used by people external to India, consistently, until the full and final move of the British Crown to a position of direct rule in 1857/58. That name was never in use by the people of India until that time. From that time onwards, the name India was used specifically for the political entity ruled by the British, which, by a brilliant innovative piece of naming, came to be known as British India. The remainder, in order to help the process of discovery that we seem to be set upon, was the territories of the princely states.

It was this unitary territory that was partitioned and given independence by the Indian Independence Act. The wording of the act makes very clear what the British considered that they were doing, and an elementary exercise in reading English and reading that act will make the entire matter clear, beyond doubt.

(iv) The maps given by the poster come cheaper by the dozen. Many people of artistic bent slap these fantasies as historical fact. You have take these maps with pinch of salt. If I throw some dye against the wall most of it will space out at point of impact. However drops will explode outwards in lesser amounts. Where do you draw the line showing impact? The maximalist line will even include that stray drop that ended outside on the footpath? The minimalist line that just occupies the actual area where the dye has full coverage?

Only an expert in dyes and colours can do justice to this passage above. Its relevance is not immediately clear.

(v) Both Pakistan and India by products of British imperialism. They brought the physical nuts and bolts of a modern state, the social, legal, administrative systems that over century matured and took root in South Asia. The final arbitrar that underwrites both states is the respective armies on both sides of the border.

If we were each of us to allow ourselves the childish pleasure of substituting distilled contempt for rational consideration, it would be appropriate to point out that saying that the physical nuts and bolts of a modern administration matured and took root in south Asia is wildly exaggerated. It really matured and took root in two of the four territories mentioned earlier. So this is not a distinguishing characteristic.

(vi) The British built up a incredibly efficient military system mostly based around regiments. These regiments tended to recruit from certain ethnic groups or regions. The most preferred groups were Pashtuns and Punjabi Muslims ( from todays Pakistan ) and Punjabi Sikhs ( from todays India). The former regiments went to make Pakistan Army the latter the Indian Army. Of course there are other groups recruited also to beef up the army but broadly speaking even in 2015 the pattterns the British set up still apply.

I expect, @Daneshmand, you might take exception to the cavalier taunt that you (do) not much about South Asia history (sic) once you read the passage above. 'Most preferred group' is precisely that: most preferred group. The Sikh in the Indian Army constitutes between 10 to 15% of the strength. Apparently we are to ignore the 85 to 90% of the balance altogether.

I have no comment about the present-day composition of the Pakistan Army.

(vii) The efficient British adminstrative machine made men rise above their ethnic group and language. How effective this was can be seen in the British Indian Army [ note that was precursor to both modern Pak and Indian Armies ] in battle. In the war against Japanese units maintained loyalty around the regiment and many even died. The British system was so efficent that even under the most difficult circumstances men kept their loyalty toward their regiment.

Strangely, we are not informed that the same leadership provided the Purbia and the Tilanga the ability to beat the same Pashtun, Punjabi Muslim and Punjabi Sikh in the years prior to the 1857 revolt. It made no difference whether it was a Punjabi dominated army or a Bihari/ eastern UP and Telugu dominated army; it was leadership that seems to have played the key role. As far as post-colonial experience is concerned, the consensus, displaced at times by the distilled contempt of the professional analyst, is that one side out of the four has learnt some of the lessons of command.

(viii) This efficient apparatus ( involving civil, military, economic aspects ) was managed by few thousand "white sahibs" to rule over a huge continent that included on it's western marches East Iranic peoples ( Pashtun, Baloch ) to the east Burmese people ( modern Myanmar) to the the extreme south tip Dravidian (Telagu or Tamils) to the extreme north west ( Kalash, Chitrali's ) to Tibeto-Mongolians like Ladakh.

Already dealt with in an earlier post.

Today at least four countries occupy the space of the British Raj. Of course one has named itself as "India" but it is as much a successor state to the British Raj as the rest. If Joe had four sons, John, Joe, Peter, Andy it would not gove Joe junior any extra claims then the other three on the estate of Joe senior.

The British India evoved to today's Islamic Republic of Pakistan on the left, Indian Republic, Bangaldesh Republic and Myanmar ( Burma ) Republic on the right side. These are the four successor states to British India.

This is a piece of wishful thinking best left alone. The India Independence Act makes it clear, and the proceedings of the UNO in the matter of Pakistan's application for membership status based on being a successor state make it even clearer that there were not four successor states, there was only one.
 
Following on from my previous post just because no "Indian" political entity existed before 1947 does NOT mean that within that huge geographic region called "India" no generic people existed, Of course they did. Just like in Europe there are lots of peoples with differant languages the same applies to South Asia ( I have to use the term South Asia post 1947 because now a generic term India has been branded by the post 1947 Indian Republic ) this use of India today cause confusion. Are we talking about India the geography or India the Republic. For the former today the term South Asia is used to prevent ambiguity.

Let us now look at the generic people of South Asia who have been living and evolving in South Asia for centuries. Along the way they have been ruled or found themselves living under differant empires. Todays manifestations of the generic peoples are Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Burma-Myanmar.

The map below is crude display of differant languages in South Asia. You can see first they belong to entirely differant language famlies. From the Persian branch in West of Pakistan ( Baloch and Pashto ) to Indo-Aryan, to Dravidian, to Sino Tebetan, to Austro-Asiatic. In between you have vast numbers of diverse dialects that are so far removed that in Europe they would be classfied as separate languages. However in South Asia each state in a attempt to create sense of unity has reduced the numbers to minimum and then created alternative histories to give myth of unity in the past when non existed.

Even the terms used are mostly foreign. If a predator eyes bunch of sheep he regards them as a group. That does not mean that flock have some central unity just because external enemies see targets of pillage. The best way can be seen as they come under attack they all disperse individuely. They don't act as a combine because they are not a combine. They will let the other one get eaten as long as they get away. It is "each sheept unto itself" because just because the predator sees a lots of sheep they are nit a "heepdom"

sasialanguage.JPG


Most of these language groups represent ethnic groups. Each as differant as Greeks and Germans if not more. For example many Indian Punjabi Sikhs could pass for Iranian but most Tamils would stick out like sore thumbs. Within these broader groups there are 10s of millions of other tribal groups who are entirely at another level of definition. In toto these groups could add upto 100s of millions. Now look at these Indian states structured around language/ethnic group.

Languages of South Asia - Main groups. Starting with Pakistan > India > Bangladesh

699px-South_asia_local_lang.PNG

States-of-India-Map.png


The above map is approximate to generic peoples of India. The small Punjab in north corner mostly Sikh is also found in Pakistan. The differance being Muslim Punjab went to Pakistan Sikh Punjab to India.

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In Pakistan the generic groups are, you guys already know about the Baloch speakers of Balochistan, we also have East Iranic speakers of NWFP ( now called Khyber Pakhtunkwa ) speaking Pashto, the Punjabi of Pakistan Punjab who speak same as Indian Punjan Sikhs across the border, Sindh speaking Sindhi. I leave Kashmir because of disputed status.

* The Pak Punjab and Indian Sikh Punjab are exactly the same other than Muslim/Sikh divide. However in Pakistan the Punjabi make about 55% of Pakistan whereas the Indian Sikh Punjabi struggle to even make 0.2% of the population. A tiny drop of 25 million in sea of 1,270 million. The Punjabi in Pakistan are so dominant at 55% that they end up dominating the state cause of much complaints.

Generic peoples of Pakistan - This will just list the main provincial groups.

1. Punjabi > Punjab
2. Pashtuns > NWFP now Khyber Pakhtunkwa
3. Sindhi > Sindh
4. Baloch > Balochistan.


* Just a clarification here. When in Persian history you talk of "Hind" or "Hindush" or "india" please don't make the assumption that it refers to the generic peoples as listed below ( Indian Republic ) unless you think Persians pole vaulted over Indus Basin/Pakistan and landed amongst the peoples tabulated below. No, the Persians interacted with their neighbours who were the forefathers of the Sindhi et al as listed above and today federated into entity called Pakistan.

Now at us look at the generic peoples of the Indian Repubic - Again let us stick with the main groups.

Languages/Places of Indian Republic

1. Assamese/Asomiya Assam
2. Bengali/Bangla Andaman & Nicobar Islands, Tripura, West Bengal,
3. Bodo Assam
4. Dogri Jammu and Kashmir
5. Gujarati Dadra and Nagar Haveli, Daman and Diu, Gujarat
6. Hindi Andaman and Nicobar Islands, Maharashtra Arunachal Pradesh, Bihar, Chandigarh, Chhattisgarh, the national capital territory of Delhi, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jharkhand, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand.
7. Kannada Karnataka
8. Kashmiri Jammu and Kashmir
9. Konkani Goa, Karnataka, Maharashtra
10. Maithili Bihar
11. Malayalam Kerala, Andaman and Nicobar Islands, Lakshadweep
12. Manipuri (also Meitei or Meithei) Manipur
13. Marathi Dadra & Nagar Haveli, Daman and Diu, Goa, Maharashtra
14. Nepali Sikkim, West Bengal
15. Oriya Orissa
16. Punjabi Chandigarh, Delhi, Haryana, Punjab
17. Sanskrit Listed as a Classical Language of India.
18. Santhali Santhal tribals of the Chota Nagpur Plateau (comprising the states of Bihar, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa)
19. Various tribal languages
20. Tamil Tamil Nadu, Andaman & Nicobar Islands, Kerala, Puducherry . Listed as a Classical Language of India.
21. Telugu

* Marked in red are shared with groups in Pakistan.

Interesting map of Iranic and Indo Aryan languages. The former begins in Turkey ( Kurdish and ends in Pakistan - Pashto ) with IA overlapping into India. South India speaks entirely another family of languages called Dravidian.

http://www.worldgeodatasets.com/files/Huffman-IndoEuropean_Langs-wdb2.pdf

South India - Dravidian

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There is more diversity in India then there is in Africa or Europe. Massive effort to engineer a narrative that creates this unified eternal concept of India is afoot. Increasingly Wikipedia is dominated by this narrative. With so many English speakers ( with a country with 1.27 nillion or 18% of humanity ) this is natural. This has created a massive inertia that is even effecting academic writing as end of day money and sponsorship underpins everything. If your a white guy or even a Iranian one fast way of making money is publish a book that builds on this eternal one India and it will become a best seller in country of 1,270 million. That is lots of sales. Try the opposite and see how many you will sell. Here is exmple of this revision of history going on.

"HORSEPLAY IN HARAPPA
The Indus Valley Decipherment Hoax

MICHAEL WITZEL, a Harvard University Indologist, and STEVE FARMER, a comparative historian, report on media hype, faked data, and Hindutva propaganda in recent claims that the Indus Valley script has been decoded.

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LAST summer the Indian press carried sensational stories announcing the final decipherment of the Harappan or Indus Valley script. A United News of India dispatch on July 11, 1999, picked up throughout South Asia, reported on new research by "noted histo rian, N.S. Rajaram, who along with palaeographist Dr. Natwar Jha,




HORSEPLAY IN HARAPPA

Ironically even this history is from Indus Basin which in fact is todays Pakistan. This would be like Saudi singing on about Persepolis intentionally being oblivious that it is in Iran. The oft repeated argument that Pakistan was not around before 1947. Overlooking that history is about peoples. I only came about in the last century but my family goes way back in time. At any rate 5,000 years ago there was no India either.
 
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