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Iranian Air Defense Systems

Baradaran at military.ir have found a recent study which analyses radar absorbing structure very similar to that visible from the RQ-4 wreckage.

They also found a crude, undetailed shape RCS analysis on the RQ-4.

Shaping accounts for ~ 10dB in that crude analysis. We can assume a magnitude better performance if the model had higher definition shaping, hence 0 dB. Shaping is obviously not the greatest stealth technique the RQ-4 uses.

However its double layered honeycomb composite sandwich structure, RAS has a surprisingly high performance. -25dB in 3rd Khordads X-band. We can add another -5dB assuming optimized details beyond the capabilities of the study.

The results are a stealth performance of -15 to -30db.

This performances would create serious problems for the 3rd Khordad at the stated interception range of 22km. -15dB would be already the edge if we assume very good GaA TRM technology.
-30dB could not be handled even with best available GaN TRMs...

Either the RQ-4 is not the absorption black hole these studies hint to, or the 3rd Khordad is either somehow high performing or skips to brute force X-band vs. high performance RAS approach by using a different approach (like thermal camera guidance).



Another issue: It is possible that the RQ-4 was minimally violating Irans airspace regularly and was painted/locked by 3rd Khordads as a warning but never shot at. This would create a false sense of security and if no sensor detected the 3rd Khordad launch, it would become a ambush in which it would be suddenly hit by missile.

Many sources now say it was flying at 22,000 (even PRESS TV). Given that this basically uses a jet engine and zero effort made to hide engine exhaust/cool it then infrared system would be able to pick it up similar to RQ-170.

Furthermore, a RCS of -30dB seems way to optimistic. That puts it a tad shy of F-35 territory.
 
Many sources now say it was flying at 22,000 (even PRESS TV). Given that this basically uses a jet engine and zero effort made to hide engine exhaust/cool it then infrared system would be able to pick it up similar to RQ-170.

Furthermore, a RCS of -30dB seems way to optimistic. That puts it a tad shy of F-35 territory.

No, the the IRGC confirmed it was flying at above 50,000 feet. They also said it was because of this fact the UAV could turn its transponder off etc. This is true because it is illegal for a flying object like fighter jets, UAV to turn it communication systems off if it's flying within height that civilian planes fly in.
 
No, the the IRGC confirmed it was flying at above 50,000 feet. They also said it was because of this fact the UAV could turn its transponder off etc. This is true because it is illegal for a flying object like fighter jets, UAV to turn it communication systems off if it's flying within height that civilian planes fly in.

Both US military and IRGC have incentive to lie.

Either way this drone should be able to be detected by thermals similar to how RQ-170 was tracked.
 
Baradaran at military.ir have found a recent study which analyses radar absorbing structure very similar to that visible from the RQ-4 wreckage.

They also found a crude, undetailed shape RCS analysis on the RQ-4.

Shaping accounts for ~ 10dB in that crude analysis. We can assume a magnitude better performance if the model had higher definition shaping, hence 0 dB. Shaping is obviously not the greatest stealth technique the RQ-4 uses.

However its double layered honeycomb composite sandwich structure, RAS has a surprisingly high performance. -25dB in 3rd Khordads X-band. We can add another -5dB assuming optimized details beyond the capabilities of the study.

The results are a stealth performance of -15 to -30db.

This performances would create serious problems for the 3rd Khordad at the stated interception range of 22km. -15dB would be already the edge if we assume very good GaA TRM technology.
-30dB could not be handled even with best available GaN TRMs...

Either the RQ-4 is not the absorption black hole these studies hint to, or the 3rd Khordad is either somehow high performing or skips to brute force X-band vs. high performance RAS approach by using a different approach (like thermal camera guidance).



Another issue: It is possible that the RQ-4 was minimally violating Irans airspace regularly and was painted/locked by 3rd Khordads as a warning but never shot at. This would create a false sense of security and if no sensor detected the 3rd Khordad launch, it would become a ambush in which it would be suddenly hit by missile.

Well they are only going based on sections of the recovered structure not the entire aircraft with sensors and all....

Iran also video taped the launch with missile pointed directly at them so clearly this was no accident...

One of the reason why the U.S. would purposely wanna fly on the edge of Iranian Airspace so close that their rout puts them in and out of Iranian Air Space regularly would be to aggravate Iranian Air Defense and to get them to turn on various targeting equipment across the boarder so they can attempt to locate them and that's probably why they had 3 surveillance aircrafts up..... And I believe Iran would know that and so it's reaction would likely be based on that fact.
 
Many sources now say it was flying at 22,000 (even PRESS TV). Given that this basically uses a jet engine and zero effort made to hide engine exhaust/cool it then infrared system would be able to pick it up similar to RQ-170.

Furthermore, a RCS of -30dB seems way to optimistic. That puts it a tad shy of F-35 territory.

Well maybe you should check sources directly from the IRGC because those are the guys who had a lock on it and shot it down and they say +51,000ft!!!

-30 dB is about the least of what an F-117 & F-35 put out under perfect conditions! -40 decibels for an F-22 again in the best of conditions (flying at the most optimal angle (altitude to range) towards the radar,...…) and it's never a constant dB. But with 3rd of Khordad with a early warning system backing them up at lower frequencies will give the 3rd of Khordad S-band search radar a general direction to search at various altitudes and that should be enough to give a general direction to point your targeting radar towards for a focused beam.

So maybe by it's self -30 dB may be to low for the 3rd of Khordad to detect during its standard search but with the assistance of other systems that will change. And it's seldom that you'll get your lowest and most optimal and least dB output in combat conditions.

But your right with sensors and all while flying at 51,000ft there is no way the dB of the RQ-4 would even go below -10db
 
Well maybe you should check sources directly from the IRGC because those are the guys who had a lock on it and shot it down and they say +51,000ft!!!

-30 dB is about the least of what an F-117 & F-35 put out under perfect conditions! -40 decibels for an F-22 again in the best of conditions (flying at the most optimal angle (altitude to range) towards the radar,...…) and it's never a constant dB. But with 3rd of Khordad with a early warning system backing them up at lower frequencies will give the 3rd of Khordad S-band search radar a general direction to search at various altitudes and that should be enough to give a general direction to point your targeting radar towards for a focused beam.

So maybe by it's self -30 dB may be to low for the 3rd of Khordad to detect during its standard search but with the assistance of other systems that will change. And it's seldom that you'll get your lowest and most optimal and least dB output in combat conditions.

But your right with sensors and all while flying at 51,000ft there is no way the dB of the RQ-4 would even go below -10db
Based on what you say, then the 3rd Khordad system would not be very effective against stealth fighters when the telecommunications have been jammed. I mean if it can't get the coordinates from the central search radar then it is left with its own search capacity which may not be enough.

Seems like 15th Khordad is a better design for Iran's mosaic doctrine.
 
What @VEVAK describes may be applied to the Bavar-373 and the reason why it can remain effective while lacking brute force power of the S-400.

The concept is basically that your battery has a starring S-band (or lower) asset such as the known Bavar-373 acquisition radar. Then the X-band engagement radar just illuminates/paints the target coordinates provided by the acquisition radar. The reflected RF energy or even scattered RF energy by stealth shaping is then received by the SARH seeker creating effectively a bi-static system.

Benefits are clear:
- About +20dB worse stealth performance against the starring S-band acquisition radar due to lower band and reduced RAM/RAS performance.
- No lock with receive signal required for the X-band engagement radar to perform the engagement.
- B-static endgame homing potentially receiving stealth scatters RF energy reflected away from the X-band engagement radar.

I agree to @TheImmortal point that -30dB for the RQ-4 are unrealistic in practice. However if this is the case, coupling a 3rd Khordad battery or rather battalion to a Najm-802B could let it work like a mini-Bavar-373 against stealth targets.
I also want to make clear that the 3rd Khordad is a pioneering system: Same as the IRGC Najm allowed IRIADF 15th Khordad, the 3rd Khordad is the first X-band phased array ESA and likely is the basis for the Bavar-373 X-Band engagement radar.
The important point is that the RQ-4 takes the role of the Tacit Blue (JSTARS) in many ways: It is very expensive and important for the war fighting capability of the U.S. Making it survivable at the edge of contested airspace should be very important to it. Its stealth performance may well be higher than people want to believe, in turn meaning its kill is a much bigger issue than people think.
 
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13980410000244

IRGC Commander: Iran Ranks 12th in World in Radar Production
13980401000724_PhotoI.jpg



TEHRAN (FNA)- Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh underlined Iran's high capabilities in production of defensive products, adding that the country ranks 12th in the world in manufacturing radars.
"Iran at presents stands on the 12th position among the 20 countries which build radars and this success has been gained in 13 years," General Hajizadeh said on Sunday.

He added that one of the main goals of the development of radars is detecting stealth planes, adding that Iran has built radars for low cross-section flying objects which could detect and intercept Israeli Hermes drone among thousands of airplanes passing over the Iranian sky.

General Hajizadeh referred to the past and recent downing of a US spy drones over the Iranian airspace, and said, "Today Iran is in possession of the largest collection of US drones."

"Although the Americans' presence in the region is harmful, it makes us test our air defense and radar systems and this is a cost that the Americans should pay for their presence in the region," he added.

The IRGC shot down a US Navy MQ-4C Triton drone that had entered Iranian airspace in the Persian Gulf region to gather intelligence on June 20, using Sevom Khordad indigenous surface-to-air missile system.

The United States had confirmed that one of its reconnaissance planes was shot down by Iranian air defenses, but denied that it intruded into Tehran’s airspace at the time.

General Hajizadeh said that his forces could have shot down a US P8 aircraft with 35 on board which was violating Iran’s airspace, but decided to shoot down the drone to only send a message to Washington.

“We intended to send a message to American terrorists in the region,” Brigadier General Hajizadeh said, adding that his forces had also traced a military P8 aircraft violating the airspace of Iran.

“Along with the American drone was an American P8 aircraft with 35 on board, and it was also violating our airspace and we could have downed it too,” he said, adding, “But we did not do (shoot down) it, because our aim was to warn the terrorist forces of the US.”

General Hajizadeh also stressed on Saturday that Iran was not after war but was fully ready to defend itself, adding that the fate of the downed US spy drone was waiting for any intruding flying object.

“Our response to anything trespassing Iranian territory is like this, and if such acts of aggression are repeated, our response will also be the same," General Hajizadeh said.

“We don’t embrace war but we are ready to fully defend the country,” he said.

"We possess a collection of US drones which is a proof that US has violated Iran’s airspace and shows that they don’t want to respect the international law,” General Hajizadeh said.

“If such an aggression is repeated, we will add other US (military) products to complete this collection,” he noted.

“The US measure was in violation of international law and we acted according to our legitimate responsibility,” General Hajizadeh said, adding, “It is possible that a US general or some operators were behind this American aggression, we don’t know that. But that measure (intruding into Iranian airspace) is a violation of international aviation rules by a spy drone which then received our natural response."

Some hours after the incident, Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif said that his country had retrieved parts of the US drone that was shot down from the country's territorial waters, rejecting Washington's claim that the aircraft was targeted in international waters.

"(The) US drone took off from UAE in stealth mode and violated Iranian airspace," Zarif wrote on Twitter, adding that the drone "was targeted near... Kouh-e Mobarak" region in the Central district of Jask in Hormuzgan province after the aircraft violated Iran's airspace.

Zarif even provided the coordinates where the US aircraft was intercepted, and added, "We've retrieved sections of the US military drone in OUR territorial waters where it was shot down."

In an earlier tweet, Zarif stated that Iran "will take this US new aggression to (the) UN and show that the US is lying about international waters".

The Iranian foreign minister noted that Tehran does not want war, "but will zealously defend our skies, land and waters".

Meantime, IRGC Commander Major General Hossein Salami stressed that the move should alert Washington officials to stay away.

The incident sent "a clear message" to the US and other enemies that Iran will show a firm and crushing response to any aggression, he stated.

"Borders are our red lines and any enemy which violates them will not go back home and will be annihilated. The only way for enemies is to respect Iran's territorial integrity and national interests," the major general noted.


1. U.S.A
2. Russia
3. China
4. France
5. Israel
6. UK
7. Sweden
8. Japan
9. Netherlands
10. Italy
11. Germany
12. Iran
...

India, Belarus, Taiwan, Ukraine, Turkey, South Korea, North Korea, Czech, Poland,
 
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13980410000244



"Iran at presents stands on the 12th position among the 20 countries which build radars and this success has been gained in 13 years,"

12th is not that impressive by itself, but what is very impressive is the highlighted part. Iran gained this position in a relatively short period. If Iran carries on with this pace of development in radar technology, we can be in top 5 without a doubt.

I think pakistan should also try Irani Sam systems.what is the best and latest Sam system that Iran possess?

Iran has many advanced SAM systems. If I were Pakistan, I would try and get the Iranian 3rd of khordad system. That is the system that Iran used to down the Triton. It's a very mobile air defence with mid-long range, low footpring, AESA radars etc. It would be a nightmare for Pakistan's enemies.

Whether Iran will sell it or not is a different issue.
 
12th is not that impressive by itself, but what is very impressive is the highlighted part. Iran gained this position in a relatively short period. If Iran carries on with this pace of development in radar technology, we can be in top 5 without a doubt.

The 13 years is one point. Another is Irans restricted access to cooperation, tool, technology and even access to COTS hardware.
With the current pace, a rank among the top 7 is well possible in the next years.
UK, Sweden, Japan, Netherlands, Italy, Germany also rely very much on European-wide or US support.
 
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13980410000244

IRGC Commander: Iran Ranks 12th in World in Radar Production
13980401000724_PhotoI.jpg



TEHRAN (FNA)- Commander of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Aerospace Force Brigadier General Amir Ali Hajizadeh underlined Iran's high capabilities in production of defensive products, adding that the country ranks 12th in the world in manufacturing radars.
"Iran at presents stands on the 12th position among the 20 countries which build radars and this success has been gained in 13 years," General Hajizadeh said on Sunday.

He added that one of the main goals of the development of radars is detecting stealth planes, adding that Iran has built radars for low cross-section flying objects which could detect and intercept Israeli Hermes drone among thousands of airplanes passing over the Iranian sky.

General Hajizadeh referred to the past and recent downing of a US spy drones over the Iranian airspace, and said, "Today Iran is in possession of the largest collection of US drones."

"Although the Americans' presence in the region is harmful, it makes us test our air defense and radar systems and this is a cost that the Americans should pay for their presence in the region," he added.

The IRGC shot down a US Navy MQ-4C Triton drone that had entered Iranian airspace in the Persian Gulf region to gather intelligence on June 20, using Sevom Khordad indigenous surface-to-air missile system.

The United States had confirmed that one of its reconnaissance planes was shot down by Iranian air defenses, but denied that it intruded into Tehran’s airspace at the time.

General Hajizadeh said that his forces could have shot down a US P8 aircraft with 35 on board which was violating Iran’s airspace, but decided to shoot down the drone to only send a message to Washington.

“We intended to send a message to American terrorists in the region,” Brigadier General Hajizadeh said, adding that his forces had also traced a military P8 aircraft violating the airspace of Iran.

“Along with the American drone was an American P8 aircraft with 35 on board, and it was also violating our airspace and we could have downed it too,” he said, adding, “But we did not do (shoot down) it, because our aim was to warn the terrorist forces of the US.”

General Hajizadeh also stressed on Saturday that Iran was not after war but was fully ready to defend itself, adding that the fate of the downed US spy drone was waiting for any intruding flying object.

“Our response to anything trespassing Iranian territory is like this, and if such acts of aggression are repeated, our response will also be the same," General Hajizadeh said.

“We don’t embrace war but we are ready to fully defend the country,” he said.

"We possess a collection of US drones which is a proof that US has violated Iran’s airspace and shows that they don’t want to respect the international law,” General Hajizadeh said.

“If such an aggression is repeated, we will add other US (military) products to complete this collection,” he noted.

“The US measure was in violation of international law and we acted according to our legitimate responsibility,” General Hajizadeh said, adding, “It is possible that a US general or some operators were behind this American aggression, we don’t know that. But that measure (intruding into Iranian airspace) is a violation of international aviation rules by a spy drone which then received our natural response."

Some hours after the incident, Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif said that his country had retrieved parts of the US drone that was shot down from the country's territorial waters, rejecting Washington's claim that the aircraft was targeted in international waters.

"(The) US drone took off from UAE in stealth mode and violated Iranian airspace," Zarif wrote on Twitter, adding that the drone "was targeted near... Kouh-e Mobarak" region in the Central district of Jask in Hormuzgan province after the aircraft violated Iran's airspace.

Zarif even provided the coordinates where the US aircraft was intercepted, and added, "We've retrieved sections of the US military drone in OUR territorial waters where it was shot down."

In an earlier tweet, Zarif stated that Iran "will take this US new aggression to (the) UN and show that the US is lying about international waters".

The Iranian foreign minister noted that Tehran does not want war, "but will zealously defend our skies, land and waters".

Meantime, IRGC Commander Major General Hossein Salami stressed that the move should alert Washington officials to stay away.

The incident sent "a clear message" to the US and other enemies that Iran will show a firm and crushing response to any aggression, he stated.

"Borders are our red lines and any enemy which violates them will not go back home and will be annihilated. The only way for enemies is to respect Iran's territorial integrity and national interests," the major general noted.


1. U.S.A
2. Russia
3. China
4. France
5. Israel
6. UK
7. Sweden
8. Japan
9. Netherlands
10. Italy
11. Germany
12. Iran
...

India, Belarus, Taiwan, Ukraine, Turkey, South Korea, North Korea, Czech, Poland,
What is the ranking based on? Quantity of production or technology ?
 
I think pakistan should also try Irani Sam systems.what is the best and latest Sam system that Iran possess?

well our absolut best are

1. Bavar_373 long range SAM ( 200 km missile range maybe more ) better then S300 PMU 2


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2. 15th of Khordad mid_lang range SAM ( 75 KM and 120 km missile range )


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3. Talash 3 long range SAM ( 120 km missile range )


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4. Talash 2 mid range SAM ( 75 km missile range )


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5. 3th of Khordad mid_long range extremely mobile SAM ( 75 KM and 105 km missile range )


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