Iran unveils A2A BVR missile Fakour

[Hack-Hook]

گزارش مشرق از یک دستاورد جدید دفاعی/
«ققنوس ایرانی» پس از ۳ دهه به آسمان رفت/ منتظر موشک‌های ضد کشتی و ضد رادار اف-۱۴ باشید +عکس

as the article points, anti ship variants can be delicate.
The next step is Maghsood long range air to air missile, if they revive the program.

after reading the article ,looks like this missile is not Fakour-90 or something driven from it.
to me it seems this particular Fakour is in fact development of Sedjil project and they decided to replace the body of AIM-23 with AIM-54 . every specification they announce about it point to Sedjil Project not Fakour Project and for that we must stay for Maqsood missiles

 

[AmirPatriot]

Analysis: Fakour Air-to-Air Missile

By Amir Monday, July 23, 2018
Today Iran announced that it had begun mass production of the Fakour Air-to-Air missile, with associated images and video. I have managed to glean some interesting details of this missile through the images provided. But I also have some criticisms, which I will explain later.



Analysis
Various markings and features on the missile indicate that it is more than just an improved AIM-54 copy. In fact, it is something else entirely.

Click the link below for the full analysis

https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2018/07/analysis-fakour-air-to-air-missile.html

 

[Raghfarm007]

Most likely a poor quality clone of the Phoenix...

Why do you think so? Do you suspect British engineers were involved with the project?

 

[raptor22]

Analysis: Fakour Air-to-Air Missile

By Amir Monday, July 23, 2018
Today Iran announced that it had begun mass production of the Fakour Air-to-Air missile, with associated images and video. I have managed to glean some interesting details of this missile through the images provided. But I also have some criticisms, which I will explain later.



Analysis
Various markings and features on the missile indicate that it is more than just an improved AIM-54 copy. In fact, it is something else entirely.

Click the link below for the full analysis

https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2018/07/analysis-fakour-air-to-air-missile.html

if it has m112 then how its range is 160?

 

[Usamafarooqi99]

IRANI SAMS are really gud in tech
give u ppl a bow

 

[07_SeppDietrich]

if it has m112 then how its range is 160?

Probably upgraded M112 engine

 

[TheMightyBender]

Does Iran have an operational wvr and standard bvr missiles?

 

[AmirPatriot]

Does Iran have an operational wvr and standard bvr missiles?

"Operational", of course. But if you mean domestic designs, no. This will be the first AAM Iran mass produces.

if it has m112 then how its range is 160?

Well of course there is a great range benefit from being launched on the move on at altitude. But the fins are also much smaller, lighter and less draggy than on the MIM-23, and it may have a better guidance system that sets it on a more efficient trajectory. Improvements in the rocket engine itself as well as fuel may also be possible.

 

[TheMightyBender]

"Operational", of course. But if you mean domestic designs, no. This will be the first AAM Iran mass produces.

That is what I meant. Wouldnt it make more sense to start with a shorter range, and thus less complicated, missile and move ahead from there?

 

[Hack-Hook]

"Operational", of course. But if you mean domestic designs, no. This will be the first AAM Iran mass produces.



Well of course there is a great range benefit from being launched on the move on at altitude. But the fins are also much smaller, lighter and less draggy than on the MIM-23, and it may have a better guidance system that sets it on a more efficient trajectory. Improvements in the rocket engine itself as well as fuel may also be possible.

Wasn't Fatter the first AA missile Iran mass produced?
maybe that's not the range if it had 160km of range it had more range than any long rage missile currently operational in USA and certainly they wouldn't call it a middle range missile. Shahin has 45km of range if fired from ground you fire it from an aircraft and it probably reach 65km operational range , fire it at high altitude and 80km is not far fetching .

well we previously have worked on a less complex Air to Air missile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatter

by the way if you lok at project sejjil , you see its not a new Idea we were worked on that from the middle of Iran - Iraq war

That is what I meant. Wouldnt it make more sense to start with a shorter range, and thus less complicated, missile and move ahead from there?

by the way if it was up to me I'd have used a missile like Sparrow as base for middle range missile.

 

[raptor22]

"Operational", of course. But if you mean domestic designs, no. This will be the first AAM Iran mass produces.



Well of course there is a great range benefit from being launched on the move on at altitude. But the fins are also much smaller, lighter and less draggy than on the MIM-23, and it may have a better guidance system that sets it on a more efficient trajectory. Improvements in the rocket engine itself as well as fuel may also be possible.

That could explain but increasing range to 4x somehow is good engineering ..
What about Maghsood (what a name ) project? any idea?

 

[PeeD]

I see no serious Iranian source claiming 160km range. Only some reporter news websites.

There should be a reason why they call it medium range, it is an intermediate system between Sejil and AIM-54. At 80km it would still have a serious edge over all AMRAAM versions (don't believe those laboratory condition numbers from Wiki).

Compared to the Sejil, 4 Fakkur can now be carried below the fuselage. A load out of 6 Fakkurs, much less expensive than those AIM-54 which require special cooling etc.

The F-14 interceptor dashes at mach 1,5 and 40k feet towards bandits and fires those 6 Fakkurs in 20 second intervals against 6 targets, 20km before the bandits can counter fire with their AMRAAMs.
The old shoot-first-kill-first rule will apply: Bandits will detect the Fakkur shots, start to panic at some point --> drop their weapons and turn --> if they were able to shot their AMRAAMs the turn will cause lack of updates and after the engagement the F-14 still have a good chance to disengage at low risk that one of the AMRAAMs will get too close.

If this edge over the AMRAAM is given with a medium range, 80km SARH Fakkur then it fulfills it mission at lower cost: More such hit and run attacks with Fakkurs can be flown, without having to think too much about depleting the arsenal.

Bear in mind that the Fakkur would probably cost just around 25% more than a HAWK/Shahin/Sejil while the complex AIM-54 did cost more than twice (100%+) than a HAWK.

A high-priority-target round one that is called long range is in the works and useful for clearly identified targets and support aircrafts (tankers, AEW, etc.).

 

[Hack-Hook]

I see no serious Iranian source claiming 160km range. Only some reporter news websites.

There should be a reason why they call it medium range, it is an intermediate system between Sejil and AIM-54. At 80km it would still have a serious edge over all AMRAAM versions (don't believe those laboratory condition numbers from Wiki).

Compared to the Sejil, 4 Fakkur can now be carried below the fuselage. A load out of 6 Fakkurs, much less expensive than those AIM-54 which require special cooling etc.

The F-14 interceptor dashes at mach 1,5 and 40k feet towards bandits and fires those 6 Fakkurs in 20 second intervals against 6 targets, 20km before the bandits can counter fire with their AMRAAMs.
The old shoot-first-kill-first rule will apply: Bandits will detect the Fakkur shots, start to panic at some point --> drop their weapons and turn --> if they were able to shot their AMRAAMs the turn will cause lack of updates and after the engagement the F-14 still have a good chance to disengage at low risk that one of the AMRAAMs will get too close.

If this edge over the AMRAAM is given with a medium range, 80km SARH Fakkur then it fulfills it mission at lower cost: More such hit and run attacks with Fakkurs can be flown, without having to think too much about depleting the arsenal.

Bear in mind that the Fakkur would probably cost just around 25% more than a HAWK/Shahin/Sejil while the complex AIM-54 did cost more than twice (100%+) than a HAWK.

A high-priority-target round one that is called long range is in the works and useful for clearly identified targets and support aircrafts (tankers, AEW, etc.).

well , there is no safe option escaping AMRAAM , guess your best bet is to hug the ground and fly away from it. and does AMRAAM really need target updating from airplane ?

also its first time I hear drop your missile when you face enemy .
I have heard about external pods , I have heard about Bombs , but never about missiles.

 

[PeeD]

In high altitude, high speed regime where long shots occur you just have to remain outside the no-escape zone of the missile or outmaneuver it, once it has lost sufficient amount of kinetic energy.

So we make differences: For long shots AMRAAM needs guidance updates, the course corrections needed if the target is suddenly 10km off what it was programmed for, will just reduce its kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is everything in such long range shots, so the longer updates are provided, the higher the PK.

Regarding kinetic energy: On wiki, the AIM-7E which Iran used in the war is stated to have 45km range. Do you think any IRIAF F-4 achieved such a long range shot?
This is a ideal value for high speed, high altitude release against a target that approaches with mach 2+ and does not maneuver.
The real value for the IRIAF was 20-25km, less than half of what is officially stated. The same applies for the AMRAAM, which is even smaller an lighter than the AIM-7. How could it ever reach 180km as stated on wiki without breaking basic rules of physics?
A clean, 1/3 remaining fuel F-15 at 50k feet and mach 2,3 with a single AIM-120D releasing it against a mach 2,2 target drone on direct collision course? Maybe if it does zero maneuvering, yes, but this laboratory conditions tells us nothing.
With modern energy optimized trajectories, the best solid fuel technology available and under realistic conditions, maybe its range is between 40-50km which is twice (!!!) that of the AIM-7E. Something lighter having twice the range is already a huge feat.
Now if a F-15 at max. reheat and altitude does it, maybe 60km is possible for the latest versions (+ continuous course updates till seeker activation) against a fighter target and 80km against a target with max. 2g maneuvering capability.

Its here where the 3 times heavier Fakkur shows its benefits: more thrust.
Now the Fakkur should always be used at max. altitude and max. speed, so that the combination pushed F-16 armed with AMRAAM out of the who shots first game.

well , there is no safe option escaping AMRAAM

An AMRAAM is a relative small and light missile. After the F-14, operating close to friendly airbases completes the Fakkur engagement, it will start to diverge from the incoming AMRAAM. The farther away it moves from the max. range launched incoming AMRAAM the lower the kinetic energy of the non-powered AMRAAM --> the lower the speed gets, the less Gs it can pull to hit the target. At some point a standard 2g maneuver is sufficient to evade it. For example: At the edge of the envelope an AMRAAM is able to kill any target, even targets pulling 12g but if the target has moved 10km (at max. afterburner and clean) from that no escape zone a 2g maneuver will make it miss.
So yes, if the conditions are correct, an AMRAAM can be evaded: The Tomcat with Fakkur can shot about 40 seconds sooner than the AMRAAM equipped F-15, this 40 seconds benefit can then be used to out-run the "zombie" AMRAAM. 40 seconds are 24km at mach 2 which is sufficient to turn the zombie AMRAAM into a subsonic floating round that may could hit an airliner with some luck.

High altitude, high speed areal warfare is just about numbers/maths and timings. If the Fakkur offers that extra margin over the AMRAAM, it does the job and the cheaper it does, the job the better.

also its first time I hear drop your missile when you face enemy .
I have heard about external pods , I have heard about Bombs , but never about missiles.

Basically you just need to know how fast the enemy missile is approaching you, the relative locations and which missile type it is. If you aircraft's warning system knows those information, it can calculate what kind of evasion maneuver you need to do at least to survive. If the calculation is 15g, you better start to flee as soon as possible. If it is 9g you get rid of anything hanging from your F-15/-16 and hope that everything goes as planned. If it is 5g then you can keep your AAMs, yes.

 

[TruthHurtz]

Why do you think so? Do you suspect British engineers were involved with the project?

Are you an idiot? His username is "Ali_Baba" he's blatantly not British just another **** expat.