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Iran unveils A2A BVR missile Fakour

Eagle, the point is that these new F-22's/ 35's have trouble keeping up with a 60 year old bear. Go look up intercept vids of these F-22's and other U.S. teen series running out of fuel in 10 minutes while flying alongside a fast bear.

The bear totally supercruises.
 
Eagle, the point is that these new F-22's/ 35's have trouble keeping up with a 60 year old bear. Go look up intercept vids of these F-22's and other U.S. teen series running out of fuel in 10 minutes while flying alongside a fast bear.

The bear totally supercruises.

Thats pretty much BS. The only way the F-22 would run out of fuel that fast in 10 minutes if it was using its afterburners. The bear ain't going anywhere fast and the F-22 can hang with it for hours if need be.
 
I apologize in advance for the length of this post, I've spent the last hour or so collecting the information for it.

Tokhme Khar,

Before I address the main point of contention here, I have just another quick correction for ya (tedious I know, but hey, you're giving me some job security!):

The bear totally supercruises.

That would be a negative. By definition, the concept of "supercruise" means an jet-propeller aircraft can fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners. Since the Tu-95 is incapable of supersonic flight, that would make your statement blatantly false.

As to your "point".

First, I have a question for you: you do realize that just because a fighter disengages with an aircraft it's intercepting, doesn't by default mean it's 'out of gas', right?

Second, you do realize that aircraft conducting intercepts almost NEVER overtake the aircraft they're responding to (possibly giving you the impression they can't keep up), right?

>>Just because a fighter is "hanging back" behind a target like the Tu-95 doesn't mean it can't keep up w/o afterburners, that's just SOP for intercepts. They will occasionally overtake their target but that's generally something you only see when intercept very slow targets (say a C-130, P-3, or IL-38).

As to this 10 minute intercept you keep mentioning, I've actually looked around for a bit now and I can't find hardly any videos of a F-22/Tu-95 intercept that show much actual interception footage at all.

Since you seem quite convinced by this video you mention, I would encourage you to find and post the link so everyone can see it for themselves.

Steering back to the issue of fighter endurance:

Let's be 100% clear: under no circumstances can ANY fighter aircraft in the world flying for "hours" UNLESS they are carrying a large number of external tanks and/or utilize one or more A2A refuels. Compared to bombers like the Tu-95 and B-52, any and all fighter aircraft today will look "short-legged" by comparison. There's nothing wrong with this, just a simple fact of design.

Using the thread you posted however, you can actually get a good hint at the F-22's real ability to supercruise. One of the posters references an article in Aviation Weekly & Space Technology that stated the F-22 is capable of supercruising at a speed of Mach 1.5 for 41 minutes, compared to a fraction of that time by an older F-15 flying at that same speed.

The figure that follow are based on known specific fuel consumption rates for the F-22's F119 engines and F-15's F100 engines, which are as follows: All F-15 data is for F-15Cs, not the Strike Eagle variants (which in US service aren't true fighters anyway).

Dry thrust only (approx figures)
F119- ~0.70lbs per lb of thrust per hour
F100- ~0.75lbs per lb of thrust per hour
F119 Dry Thrust- ~26,000lbs x 2
F100 Dry Thrust- ~13,500lbs x 2
F-22 Max Fuel Loads- ~18,000lbs internal + 8,000lbs external
F-15 Max Fuel Loads- ~13,500lbs internal + 15,000lbs external
F-22 Dry Thrust Speed- Mach 1.5 @ 30,000 feet or ~1600km/hr
F-15 Dry Thrust Speed- Mach 0.9 @ 30,000 feet or ~1000km/hr

1) Based on the information above, that indicates the 41 minute supercruise endurance mentioned above in your thread is internal + external. See next point for my breakdown.

2) Using the information above, the F-22 would have a max range of ~1000km/620 miles on a max fuel load at Mach 1.5 supercruise, with a corresponding combat radius of <500km. The time to cover this distance will be ~40-45 minutes one-way or ~20 minutes out & ~20 minutes back.

3) Using the information above, at dry thrust, a F-15 would burn approx 22,000lbs of fuel (aka full internal + 2 typical externals) to cover the same distance as the F-22 but would take a full 60 minutes to do so.

So while the F-22's engines are technically more fuel efficient, because they have such a greater dry thrust rating than the F-15's, their actual fuel consumption is greater.

Likewise, while this would seem to give the F-15 the upper hand, it takes 50% longer to cover the same distance.

So what the F-22 loses in terms of total fuel burn is made up for somewhat in the speed in which it cover said distance.

In conclusion:

The F-22 flying at typical cruising altitudes, at supercruise speeds the entire flight, and with max fuel load should have a combat radius of 400-500km.

For a mix-speed mission (aka some time flying at supercruise and some subsonic), the only combat radius figure I've found is the often-quoted 850km (185km of which at supercruise). What it would be if it was only subsonic speeds is unknown, though I think it's a same assumption if would be greater than this 850km figure, how much greater is the mystery.

Compare this to the combat radius of its predecessor the F-15 with max fuel (internal+external), which is variously quoted in the range of 1800-2000km and the F-22 does look a bit short legged.

So, how long it can fly/shadow a Tu-95 will depend primarily on what speed it traveled to intercept it (since it won't need to supercruise once it meets up with it) and the fuel load in question. Keep in mind that when fighters are scrambled for interception but have good lead time to their target (aka they're going to be covering some distance just to reach it), they will often utilize A2A refueling, which would throw all the math I did above out the window....:blink:
 
Eagle there are lots of serious issues with both the F-22 and the F-35, one of which is the combat persistence issue. More and more we see both types carry external stores, including huge drop tanks. Stealth becomes meaningless.

Old discussion I participated in yonks ago: http://indiandefence.com/threads/pak-fa-5th-generation-aircraft.851/page-276

As is the Mig-31 has better combat persistence than the F-22.....We also know the Su-30 beats the F-35 in performance/ combat persistence etc......U need to take a lot of literature on U.S equipment as propaganda. It's nothing more. This thread is derailed now. I apologize.

We should open a US weapon performance propaganda vs reality thread.
 
No you are the bullshitter:

Here's 11 pages of discussion totally destroying the F-22's SC performance, chump:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/show...-can-Super-Cruise-for-only-100-Nautical-Miles

No you pretty much are being a BS since you have been corrected multiple times. And don't use another forum by another poster as a good source since that is also being corrected just by looking at the posts. Because it looks like the posters is destroying the OP about the F-22.
 
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u can't railroad other discussions on other forums if they don't agree with your propaganda. Go thru those 11 pages and then GTFO...........I'm not rehashing this childish debate 10 years after already having it on that link provided.

No you pretty much are being a BS since you have been corrected multiple times. And don't use another forum by another poster as a good course since that is also being corrected just by looking at the posts. Because it looks like the posters is destroying the OP about the F-22.
 
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u can't railroad other discussions on other forums if they don't agree with your propaganda. Go thru those 11 pages and then GTFO...........I'm not rehashing this childish debate 10 years after already having it on that link provided.

I went through 11 pages and they contradict you. You don't need to tell me to gtfo unless you are afraid. You are the one rehashing this debate on a old forum by bring it here in the first place.
 
why not reverse engineer F-14:-)

Cause its a 50 year old design. That may be fine for something small and light like an F-5 that can be turned into an advanced trainer, but the F-14 is an air superiority fighter. It can't do that role in the age of stealth.

Its a damn shame, it won't be gracing the skies much longer.
 
why not reverse engineer F-14:-)
Cause its a 50 year old design. That may be fine for something small and light like an F-5 that can be turned into an advanced trainer, but the F-14 is an air superiority fighter. It can't do that role in the age of stealth.

Its a damn shame, it won't be gracing the skies much longer.
because of the complexity of the platform
 
So a day after Trumps threat suddenly the Fakkur missile is unveiled, a "harmless" air to air missile, not more dangerous systems like BMs/CMs.

Not a coincidence I think, it was one of the systems in line to be presented.

As for the missile: A copy of the AIM-54 using MIM-23 design school learned via the Shahin.
In most respects it is simpler than the very complex and thus expensive AIM-54. But this also almost certainly means less kinematic performance.

Basically it should be described as a improved Sejil AIM-23: Better kinematic performance which I would estimate to have improved from the 60km of the Sejil to now 80km max. It may also have a INS and data-link now so that several can be fired, but it does not look like that.

For more a updated active seeker variant with a potent INS is needed which uses a climb profile like the AIM-54. Such a version could then have a long range of 120km+.

Improved miniaturization is needed, better batteries a potent active seeker and a cost effective INS among other items. However the old US design heritage is way behind new Russian developments. With that layout the 200-300km of Russian heavy BVRs can never be reached.

However that current estimated 80km range of the Fakkur would probably be sufficient for current threats:
The AIM-120 is a ARH missile, but as a small BVR missile its range is about 50km for the C version and 60km for the D version. The Fakkur is a SARH missile but with a 20-30km range benefit which could make up for the lack of fire and forget capability.

A F-14 on reheat, mach 1,5 at high altitude shooting several non-expensive Fakkur to reach the 80km max. range would a real threat to F-16/F-15. Unlikely to be on afterburner (because not close their bases/tanker) and with expensive but light AIM-120, the Tomcats would start the engagement first. Without having to think "is the target worth the Pheonix?" and 20-30km before the opponents can start the engagement they would probably start to break and flee even tough the Fakkur is only SARH.

So in total, for a AAM to make any sense against airpowers like the US following check-list is necessary:
Is it ARH? --> If it is just SARH, is it sufficiently longer ranged than the opponents AAMs? --> Is it cost effective enough so that it can beat a LR-SAM system in that field? --> Is it agile enough to hit the target? If not, is the warhead sufficiently larger to compensate?

In those regards, the Fakkur looks like it is meeting the requirements. The Tomcats now have a potent AAM to cover targets which are deemed not worth the rare and expensive Phoenix. It is certainly a better project than to try to build an improved AIM-7 or any non-heavy BVR AAM. Plus it benefits from the refurbishment of the AIM-54 arsenal as several of the subsystems like the e.g batteries should be common which decreases the efforts/costs.

This first SARH variant should be reserved for the F-14, which large radar can illuminate out to the max. range but the F-4 even with a new radar should only be able to support a future ARH variant with a data-link. Then two such Fakkurs combined with mach 1,5 flying Phantoms on reheat would make it a deadly interceptor in the 21th century, only by adding a new missile.
 

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