Iran Army gains capability to intercept, redirect enemy missiles

[Hack-Hook]

A human being can be so tightly controlled by orders, not physical restraints, that he can have NO autonomy at all. This is where you failed to understand the concept of 'autonomy'. Orders given to a soldier is like software but only to a degree. As someone who actually served, I know the concept of an 'order' very well. When I am in the execution of an order, I have little or no autonomy, everything I do I must do in order to achieve the goal outlined by that order.

Software programming for a high autonomy UAV is similar. The only difference here is that the human being have his own set of 'programming' that are so powerful that he can override any external 'programming' given to him. I can disobey an order, for example. A UAV does not have that advantage and that is why we must give the UAV sophisticate set of orders, or programming, to act and/or to perform actions that we approved to be suitable for non-supervision, such as take of and landing, or even air refueling. But when it comes to mission variables that are unpredictable, such as dodging ground to air gunfire or radar avoidance, then the human operator will take over and make decisions whose conditions are outside of programming.

well its something that in this thread I'm trying to tell , X47-b is no more advanced than RQ-170 or Global Hawk on hardware side , the main advancement in this drone is its software and if they upload the software into those planes then they also gain the capabilities to take off or do all the maneuvering necessary for refueling operation .

So what? Does that mean Iranian air defense will be able to see it with no problems?

it means if this is true then this plane would be vulnerable against heat seeking missiles like sidewinder and a plane like upgraded models of Mig-29 have the capabilities to detect it with the help of FLIR.

by the way its not only you who served ,in Iran any male person will serve for 20 month , I myself served in border police at Iran-Pakistan Border for 17 month . so we also now the concept of Autonomy but here they were talking about Artificial intelligence look here some people claimed this plane have an AI they even didn't talked about Virtual Intelligence but said this plane has intelligence while in fact this plane have no intelligence at all m it only can do the thing that it's told the only difference is that this one like others don't need to be told how to do the maneuvers needed for refueling and in my book that's not intelligence ,that's only a little more complex programing.

 

[gambit]

it means if this is true then this plane would be vulnerable against heat seeking missiles like sidewinder and a plane like upgraded models of Mig-29 have the capabilities to detect it with the help of FLIR.

You are taking this common vulnerability to be THE ONE that will enable Iran to rid Iranian airspace of these things. Your exaggeration is expected.

 

[LeGenD]

well its something that in this thread I'm trying to tell , X47-b is no more advanced than RQ-170 or Global Hawk on hardware side , the main advancement in this drone is its software and if they upload the software into those planes then they also gain the capabilities to take off or do all the maneuvering necessary for refueling operation .

You just don't get it! Do you?

The hardware should be capable of performing a task, which it is commanded to do.

For example:

You develop a drone for reconnaissance purpose. You program it to perform some tasks. And it can perform those tasks without your assistance. However, if you command it to perform strike missions; do you think that it will be able to do so without any hardware related capability to perform such missions?

This is my point. Programming and hardware must complement each other, capability wise.

Here;

Northrop Grumman's X-47B drone may represent "a major qualitative change in the conduct of hostilities" according to the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which reports to the Geneva Conventions. The X-47B is entering tests to see it land on the deck of an aircraft carrier, autonomously -- without in-cockpit or remote-pilot input. That sort of capability is only a precursor to what's coming. According to an Air Force report (PDF), the improvements in drone technology will eventually give drones the capacity to make life-or-death decisions while engaged in battle. And "increasingly humans will no longer be 'in the loop' but rather 'on the loop.'" And that, according to ICRC president Jacob Kellenberger, may challenge international law.

According to Kellenberger, "the capacity to discriminate" in warfare is a requirement of international humanitarian law. In the case of advanced drones, that capacity will "depend entirely on the quality and variety of sensors and programming" employed as opposed to individuals, Kellenberger says. The ICRC is addressing the issue as it relates to the Geneva Conventions. Drones now account for 7,500 aircraft in the military and one-third of all military aircraft today, the L.A. Times reported Thursday. Drone platforms represent potential cost and combat benefits. There is currently no plan to allow the X-47B to autonomously make decisions about killing enemy combatants. But that may change. In the Air Force's report (PDF), the Air Force states that "authorizing a machine to make lethal combat decisions is contingent upon political and military leaders resolving legal and ethical questions."

Source: X-47 Drone Testing Sparks Ethical Warfare Debate

X47-B is a step ahead of other drones.

The X47-B is designed to perform these tasks at hardware level. Its software is being upgraded accordingly to unlock those capabilities autonomously.

Software by itself cannot make a drone capable enough to perform these highly complicated tasks.

 

[Hack-Hook]

you are wrong RQ-170 , Global Hawk and Predator have all the hardware needed to do those tasks they only need a software to let the Hardware show it's capabilities . you are telling me about the advancement in hardware ,well why not tell me whats one of the advancement ? is the airframe more advanced m or you believe the engine is more advanced or perhaps the Ailerons and Elevators on this plane use a new secret technology ?
or perhaps you believe the sensors and Radars on X47-b is more advanced than RQ-170 ? or do you believe its shape more aerodynamic and stealthier than RQ-170 ?

no the only different is the software have more complex subroutines that allow it to do certain tasks without input from operator. but still it need the operator to tell him to do the task and after that it can do those tasks without any input .

about the drone being able to decide for itself to do the attack well the hard work is not attacking , but differentiating enemy , civilian and friendly forces. if you cant do the differentiation then the drone simply attack to any moving creature in the area and that's also a software logic program not something depended on a special hardware

You are taking this common vulnerability to be THE ONE that will enable Iran to rid Iranian airspace of these things. Your exaggeration is expected.

well are not stealth planes vulnerable to VHF radars ? cant you detect the vicinity of these slow subsonic drones with a VHF radar and as VHF radars just simply sucks for painting target and guiding missiles toward target then send a fighter plane equipped with FLIR equipment to the area to deal with it ?

after all don't you think we must had somehow knew that RQ-170 is there to send some storm-trooper with a traction beam generator to the area to bring it down ?

 

[500]

Typical discussion pattern at Iran defence:

Iran introduces new super duper magic weapon, 16th time this week.
Rational thinking guy: sorry, but thats not serious, even leading technological powers cant do this stuff.
Iran strong team: Iran shot down RQ-170, so obviously it can make super duper weapon too!!! RQ-170!!!! RQ-170!!!!1111111!!!!
- Excuse me, but no one here really knows how that RQ-170 fell down and what it actually has to do with the issue?
- RQ-170!!! RQ-170!!!!1111!!!!! RQ-170!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111!!!!!!

 

[OrionHunter]

Wow!! The Iranians can now hijack enemy missiles in flight and redirect them back from where they came, just like a goddamn boomerang???

 

[gambit]

well are not stealth planes vulnerable to VHF radars ? cant you detect the vicinity of these slow subsonic drones with a VHF radar and as VHF radars just simply sucks for painting target and guiding missiles toward target then send a fighter plane equipped with FLIR equipment to the area to deal with it ?

It is always amusing to us radar specialists to read things like this. Take this kindly: You got suckered.

First of all...It is not only 'stealth' aircrafts that are vulnerable to long wavelengths. Those who said these things usually do not know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to basic radar detection principles. The bottom line is this: Whatever effects long wavelengths have on 'stealth' those effects are compounded a hundred folds on 'non-stealth'. This is real physics, not 'Chinese physics' or 'Iranian physics'.

Second...Because these people usually do not know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to even basic radar detection principles, they do not know the details on what make up the engineering problems and how possibly those problems render the idea tactically useless, or near useless.

Here is the deal...There is a relationship between antenna size, wavelength, and beamwidth.

The narrower the DESIRED beamwidth, the larger the antenna must be. So that mean if you want to use the HF/VHF/UHF bands, which are meters length, and if you want a beamwidth of 5deg or less, your antenna will end up as tens of meters in size. Even the F-35 hating crowd at APA admitted so...

Russian / PLA Low Band Surveillance Radar Systems (Counter Low Observable Technology Radars)

Low band radars are not a panacea for the defeat of VLO (Very Low Observable) aircraft. Their angular accuracy has been until recently poor, and the required antenna size results in ungainly systems which are usually slow to deploy and stow, even if designed from the outset for mobility. The size and high power emissions of these radars, in types with limited mobility, makes them much easier to detect and destroy than typical mobile systems operating in the decimetric and centimetric bands, which can relocate rapidly after a missile shot.

We are not talking about a manned aircraft but a much smaller unmanned vehicle. The irony here is that because of the really bad resolutions long wavelengths produce, these UAVs are actually much harder to locate when they fly among variable terrain such as mountainous areas of the Earth.

This is the 'resolution' am talking about...

ATIS Telecom Glossary

The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is determined by the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical beamwidths of the transmitting radar. Note: The radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell.

The wider the beam the larger the resolution cell so a 'stealth' UAV can be next to a tree and the radar will see both as a single target. To create a smaller beam a larger and progressively larger antenna must be used and that make the entire system fixed or limited mobility. And that make the system tactically limited or useful.

So you go right on and believe that long wavelengths will detect our 'stealth' aircrafts, manned or unmanned. We are perfectly comfortable with you in your delusions.

 

[Hack-Hook]

well here have I ever said about a narrow beam that can pinpoint the plane ,all I said is that the radar show you that there is something in a 10kmx10km square that normal radars don't show it ? do you say that this is impossible for a long wavelength RADAR ? after that you can send a fighter with FLIR to the area to detect with this drone if the exhaust is not shielded .
what I get from this link is that you cant use that RADAR to target an airplane
Russian / PLA Low Band Surveillance Radar Systems (Counter Low Observable Technology Radars)

Typical discussion pattern at Iran defence:

Iran introduces new super duper magic weapon, 16th time this week.
Rational thinking guy: sorry, but thats not serious, even leading technological powers cant do this stuff.
Iran strong team: Iran shot down RQ-170, so obviously it can make super duper weapon too!!! RQ-170!!!! RQ-170!!!!1111111!!!!
- Excuse me, but no one here really knows how that RQ-170 fell down and what it actually has to do with the issue?
- RQ-170!!! RQ-170!!!!1111!!!!! RQ-170!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111!!!!!!

so you also think RQ-170 don't have the hardware to act Autonomous ?

 

[LeGenD]

you are wrong RQ-170 , Global Hawk and Predator have all the hardware needed to do those tasks they only need a software to let the Hardware show it's capabilities .

Really?

From Northrop Grumman;

Revelation 1: The flight tests, completed Jan. 21 in St. Augustine, proved the functionality of the hardware and software that will enable the X-47B unmanned aircraft to demonstrate autonomous aerial refueling (AAR) in 2014.

Revelation 2: The X-47B will use a hybrid GPS/vision-based relative navigation system in conjunction with its autonomous flight control system to establish and maintain a precise distance between tanker and the receiver aircraft," he added.

Revelation 3: The X-47B is the first fixed-wing unmanned system designed to operate from a Navy aircraft carrier.

Hint: The plane has sensors that would guage distance and position faster and more precisely then a human pilot.

you are telling me about the advancement in hardware ,well why not tell me whats one of the advancement ? is the airframe more advanced m or you believe the engine is more advanced or perhaps the Ailerons and Elevators on this plane use a new secret technology ?
or perhaps you believe the sensors and Radars on X47-b is more advanced than RQ-170 ? or do you believe its shape more aerodynamic and stealthier than RQ-170 ?

From Northrop Grumman;

Revelation 4: "The UCAS-D team is delighted to have the X-47B recognized for its innovative design and capabilities by Popular Science, one of the world's most prestigious science and technology magazines," said Capt. Jaime Engdahl, the Navy UCAS program manager. "We are truly honored to be listed among the year's most significant scientific and engineering achievements."

Sensors onboard in X47-B: EO / IR / SAR / ISAR / GMTI / MMTI / ESM (Source: Northrop Grumman)

In comparison, sensors onboard in RQ-4 Global Hawk: EO / IR / SAR (Source: Northrop Grumman)

In comparison, sensors onboard in RQ-170 Sentinel: EO / IR / SAR (Source: Airforce Technology)

Engine onboard in X47-B: Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220U (Source: Northrop Grumman)

In comparison, sensors onboard in RQ-4 Global Hawk: Rolls-Royce AE3007H Turbofan (Source: Northrop Grumman)

In comparison, engine onboard in RQ-170 Sentinel: General Electric TF34 Turbofan (Source: Airforce Technology)

Physical design:

X47-B

X47-B has 'all carbon composite' airframe.

The wing extensions provide for longer range and better low-speed characteristics, and are foldable to reduce parking space on the aircraft carrier.

RQ-170

no the only different is the software have more complex subroutines that allow it to do certain tasks without input from operator. but still it need the operator to tell him to do the task and after that it can do those tasks without any input .

In the world of robotics, everything is made possible with combination of both hardware and software capabilities. And unlike other drones, X47-B does not requires external guidance to perform such a complex landing. It can do this on its own.

about the drone being able to decide for itself to do the attack well the hard work is not attacking , but differentiating enemy , civilian and friendly forces. if you cant do the differentiation then the drone simply attack to any moving creature in the area and that's also a software logic program not something depended on a special hardware

Electronic sensors play an important role in this kind of task. Once again! The combination of hardware and software capabilities will get the job done.

You really need some education in robotics. Here is a study for you: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ecj.10391/pdf

 

[SOHEIL]

i love american/zionist trolls !!!

hot & high !!!

loooooool

 

[Hack-Hook]

well thanks for the lengthy northrop sale brochure , but it didn't add any information that show that the hardware is what make it possible to land or takeoff or refuel .
as a matter of fact being able to fold the wings have nothing to do with the discussion also the engine used inside the airplanes as it have nothing to do with landing and refueling in the air .by the way let see what are those sensors

Inverse synthetic aperture radar (ISAR):ISAR is utilized in maritime surveillance for the classification of ships and other objects. In these applications the motion of the object due to wave action often plays a greater role than object rotation, ISAR for maritime surveillance was pioneered by Texas Instruments in collaboration with the Naval Research Laboratory and became an important capability of the P-3 Orion and the S-3B Viking US Navy aircraft.

In short it is used to identify ships and have nothing to do with refueling and autonomy but something necessary for all Maritime patrol Aircraft no wonder RQ-170 and RQ-4 don't have it

MTI (GMTI / MMTI) : Moving target indication (MTI) is a mode of operation of a radar to discriminate a target against clutter. GMTI stand for Ground moving target indication and MMTI is Maritime moving target indication

again nothing to do with autonomous capabilities of the plane

Electronic Support Measures (ESM) describe the division of electronic warfare involving actions taken under direct control of an operational commander to detect, intercept, identify, locate, record, and/or analyze sources of radiated electromagnetic energy for the purposes of immediate threat recognition (such as warning that fire control RADAR has locked on a combat vehicle, ship, or aircraft) or longer-term operational planning

again nothing useful for the works you mentioned .

now let look at the engine
Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220U :
Maximum thrust: *17,800 lbf (79.1 kN) military thrust
29,160 lbf (129.6 kN) with afterburner
Overall pressure ratio: 32:1
Turbine inlet temperature: 2460F (1349C)[5]
Specific fuel consumption: *Military thrust: 0.76 lb/(lbf·h) (77.5 kg/(kN·h))
Full afterburner: 1.94 lb/(lbf·h) (197.8 kg/(kN·h))
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8:1 (76.0 N/kg)

General Electric TF34 Turbofan : Compressor: single-stage fan, 14 stage HP axial flow compressor
Combustors: annular
Turbine: 4 stage LP, 2 stage HP

Performance

Maximum thrust: 9,250 lb (4200 kg)
Power-to-weight ratio:


you see nothing special about the engine just moore thrust

Rolls-Royce AE3007H Turbofan :
Maximum thrust: 6,495–9,440 lbf (28.9–42.0 kN)
Overall pressure ratio: 18–20:1
Turbine inlet temperature: 994℃
Thrust-to-weight ratio: : 4.1–5.6



you see nothing special about the engine just more thrust , honestly I can't figure how that will help autonomy .

Revelation 2: The X-47B will use a hybrid GPS/vision-based relative navigation system in conjunction with its autonomous flight control system to establish and maintain a precise distance between tanker and the receiver aircraft," he added.

honestly you think how RQ-170 and RQ-4 fly that this is an extraordinary feature for you ?

Revelation 1: The flight tests, completed Jan. 21 in St. Augustine, proved the functionality of the hardware and software that will enable the X-47B unmanned aircraft to demonstrate autonomous aerial refueling (AAR) in 2014.

don't tell that its a new hardware it only talk about combination of hardware and software .and don\t say other planes don't have these hardware
a word of advice from me never believe all of what a sale manager will tell you about a product . let me show you an example to you .it's abut a drug called ezetimibe that several year ago introduced to the market as a miracle drug that not only reduce LDL but also increase HDL ,well the company that produced it made tons of money with it , but several years later a sad fact come to light , the drug company that produced it while knew that drug won't reduce the mortality and IHD hide that fact.

Even though ezetimibe decreases cholesterol levels, the results of two major, high-quality clinical trials (in 2008 and 2009) showed that it did not improve clinically significant outcomes, such as major coronary events, and actually made some outcomes, such as artery wall thickness, worse. Indeed, a panel of experts concluded in 2008 that it should "only be used as a last resort".[1] In one of those studies, a head-to-head trial in 2009, a much less expensive medication (extended-release niacin) was found to be superior. Ezetimibe actually increased the thickness of artery walls (a measurement of atherosclerosis) and caused more major cardiovascular events.

see its how the big companies works , in the Brochure you posted there was beautiful words to made the plane look something extra ordinary fantastic but if you look deep in the article you see nothing extraordinary compared to what today USA have at least hardware wise .

 

[LeGenD]

@ JEskandari

You are trying to spin this debate in another direction with excuses you brought up this time. You asked me to give some basic details about differences in hardware of X47-B and other drones and I did that for you. Every point of mine is not about granting autonomous capabilities to the drone. And I do no feel to get in to technicalities of every aspect of these drones.

I will try one last time to explain you my point.

Consider the example of a realistic game here. Artifical Intelligence plays a vital role in realistic simulation of physical environment of any realistic game, which is made possible through combination of smart programming and advanced hardware rendering capabilities. Now a realistic game will obviously have some criteria to run it, like all other applications. This criteria will be its 'hardware requirements'. The game will run optimally if its criteria is met. Otherwise, the game will either; (1) not work; (2) run badly; or (3) run with limitations.

This is the logic that you need to understand.

Now apply this logic to the drone;

Drone is hardware. Its operating system is its software. Both should complement each other or meet the criteria of each other. And the phenomenon of Artifical Intelligence extends to both hardware and software.

Understand?

OR

You can continue to live in your FANTASY world where software does all the tricks.

 

[longbrained]

A good article about vulnerability by an elite US fighter pilot and fighter designer (one of the fighter mafia): The F-22 Program: Fact Versus Fiction


Stealth is so much hyped and is basically a propaganda now. No stealth design is stealth to all frequencies. Specially it is difficult to keep stealth in lower frequency radars with good computational power to process feedback. With cheap computation around and low frequency radars easy to make the so called stealth does not exist. And yeah, it does not matter to locate a stealth aircraft to within centimeters, just locating it to within a mile is enough for fighters to be scrambled to intercept it or a SAM with terminal optical guidance to be launched at it. And even this can be done by using passive radars.

By the way the record of stealth is unimpressive. It got shot down in Serbia and has only been used in run down nations with no air defense like Iraq. A capable nation can counter stealth easily by just investing in R&D. Hell, F-22 has killed more pilots training on it than a Toyota. It basically suffocates its pilot to death. Just google it and see. Most of the time it is grounded and then when it flies the pilot has to be careful not to be killed by its plane.

A good article about vulnerability by an elite US fighter pilot and fighter designer (one of the fighter mafia): The F-22 Program: Fact Versus Fiction


Stealth is so much hyped and is basically a propaganda now. No stealth design is stealth to all frequencies. Specially it is difficult to keep stealth in lower frequency radars with good computational power to process feedback. With cheap computation around and low frequency radars easy to make the so called stealth does not exist. And yeah, it does not matter to locate a stealth aircraft to within centimeters, just locating it to within a mile is enough for fighters to be scrambled to intercept it or a SAM with terminal optical guidance to be launched at it. And even this can be done by using passive radars.

By the way the record of stealth is unimpressive. It got shot down in Serbia and has only been used in run down nations with no air defense like Iraq. A capable nation can counter stealth easily by just investing in R&D. Hell, F-22 has killed more pilots training on it than a Toyota. It basically suffocates its pilot to death. Just google it and see. Most of the time it is grounded and then when it flies the pilot has to be careful not to be killed by its plane.

 

[LeGenD]

A good article about vulnerability by an elite US fighter pilot and fighter designer (one of the fighter mafia): The F-22 Program: Fact Versus Fiction


Stealth is so much hyped and is basically a propaganda now. No stealth design is stealth to all frequencies. Specially it is difficult to keep stealth in lower frequency radars with good computational power to process feedback. With cheap computation around and low frequency radars easy to make the so called stealth does not exist. And yeah, it does not matter to locate a stealth aircraft to within centimeters, just locating it to within a mile is enough for fighters to be scrambled to intercept it or a SAM with terminal optical guidance to be launched at it. And even this can be done by using passive radars.

By the way the record of stealth is unimpressive. It got shot down in Serbia and has only been used in run down nations with no air defense like Iraq. A capable nation can counter stealth easily by just investing in R&D. Hell, F-22 has killed more pilots training on it than a Toyota. It basically suffocates its pilot to death. Just google it and see. Most of the time it is grounded and then when it flies the pilot has to be careful not to be killed by its plane.

A good article about vulnerability by an elite US fighter pilot and fighter designer (one of the fighter mafia): The F-22 Program: Fact Versus Fiction


Stealth is so much hyped and is basically a propaganda now. No stealth design is stealth to all frequencies. Specially it is difficult to keep stealth in lower frequency radars with good computational power to process feedback. With cheap computation around and low frequency radars easy to make the so called stealth does not exist. And yeah, it does not matter to locate a stealth aircraft to within centimeters, just locating it to within a mile is enough for fighters to be scrambled to intercept it or a SAM with terminal optical guidance to be launched at it. And even this can be done by using passive radars.

By the way the record of stealth is unimpressive. It got shot down in Serbia and has only been used in run down nations with no air defense like Iraq. A capable nation can counter stealth easily by just investing in R&D. Hell, F-22 has killed more pilots training on it than a Toyota. It basically suffocates its pilot to death. Just google it and see. Most of the time it is grounded and then when it flies the pilot has to be careful not to be killed by its plane.

Now read this;

F-22 Raptor Team Web Site: Technology - Stealth Capabilities

Specially this:

Radar signature approximately the size of a bumblebee, thereby avoiding detection by the most sophisticated enemy air defense systems

Stealth technology is combat proven and the 'inside story' is that existing drones are no where even close to stealth capabilities of Jets like F-22 or even B-2.

Also, new hardware can have issues. And they can also be fixed.

And you are quoting an article which was published in year 2000?

Performance is not a concern for F-22. Its oxygen supply is. Though it does have emergency oxygen supply system, which can be activated manually. But the main issue will be surely addressed.

I believe that Iranians experience issues in their defence related programs too. Or they make everything perfect right from the prototype stage?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

US f it up ... Iran has a replica of a ideal steath design ... lol gift from Uncle Sam ...