Iran and the arabs since the begining of islam

[Last Hope]

First of all, why do we have a thread like this? I though such debates were banned on the forum.

To add in:
You cannot say that all Sunnis are good/bad or all Shias are good/bad. There is no Shia/Sunni in Islam and nobody is judged on what-so-ever they call themselves, on the Last Day. Everyone will be judged by their actions and intentions.

In Islam, it is clearly mentioned that there will be 72 sects of Muslims, but that only one sect will go to Jannah. They aren't Shia neither Sunni. Some qualities of those people are mentioned, which don't match the majority of the Muslims today.

So stop this useless/baseless/crappy discrimination of Shia/Sunni. You have no right for this innovation in Islam, which is Bidah, and neither do you have any rights to judge anyone. That is what the Judgement Day is for...

 

[The SC]

1. The Arabs of mainland Arabia truly got consolidated and organized as a free state under the Holy Prophet PBUH, for the first time in history, to achieve great things. Prior to Islam, the Arabs, living in tribal pockets, were under the control of the Byzentines, Persians, Egyptians or the Abyssinian in parts and from time to time. Islam united them for the first time in history, and energized them so that they could spring into Central Asia and Al Andalusia. Within no time the Maghreb became Arab, and so did Mesopotamia / Assyria. However, Central Asians, Hindustanis, Persians, Byzantine-Turks, Mid-Africans, Muslims of the East and others held on to their culture.

2. Eventually the Ottomans emerged as the most powerful among the Muslims and administered Arabia as a province.

3. There is an undercurrent in the modern Arab world which is quite interesting. There is a feeling among some that the best of the Arabs, namely the Banu Umayya and the Banu Hashim had left Arabia carrying the flag of Islam to far corners of the globe. Those remaining behind are the weaklings. Therefore, these lot are ever on the lookout to locate seeds of these brave Arabs anywhere in the world. They want these back by arranging marriage of their women with these people. Few such incidents became known during the Afghan Jihad against the Soviets.

I totally agree with you, although I would like to shed some more light on the origin of the Arabs, some facts confirm that there was an Arab civilisation prior to islam here are the facts:

1. The Arabs’ Semitic(some say Aryan who adopted the Semitic language) ancestors in the Fertile Crescent and Egypt produced 5 brilliant ancient civilizations, which benefited the earliest Western civilizations of Greece and Rome. These 5 are: the Iraqi Sumerian and Babylonian civilizations; the Egyptian Pharaonic civilization; the Lebanese Phoenician civilization; and the Palestinian Canaanite civilization.

2. The 3 Semitic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were all born in the Arab region.

3. The Post-Islamic Arab civilization contributed handsomely to the European Renaissance.

I

Arab Civilization before Islam

Contrary to some popular Western misconceptions propagated by many Western "experts" and "authorities" on the Arab world alleging that Arabs did not have any civilization before Islam, or that Arabs were nothing more than a collection of nomadic warring primitive tribes, confined solely to the Arabian Peninsula, who spent most of their existence looking for food and water, the historical record proves otherwise. In fact, centuries before the birth of Islam, the Arabs had several civilizations, not only in the Arabian Peninsula itself, but also in the Fertile Crescent, some of which were highly advanced with elaborate development and culture. Although Arab civilization before Islam might not have had a noticeable impact on Greece and Rome, it is nonetheless important to briefly mention here the following pre-Islamic Arab civilizations in order to dispel this wrong conventional Western notion that Arabs had no civilization before the birth of Islam, were nothing but wandering nomads, and were confined only to the Arabian Peninsula.

1

The Kingdom of Saba (or Sheba)

One of the earliest and most important of all pre-Islamic Arab civilizations is the Qahtani Kingdom of Saba or Sheba (10th century BCE – 7th century CE), which had an elaborate civilization, legendary in its reputation of prosperity and wealth. The Kingdom of Saba was located in the southwestern mountainous rainy parts of the Arabian Peninsula in what is known today as the regions of Aseer and Yemen. Envious of its wealth, the Romans named it “Arabia Felix” (fortunate or prosperous Arabia).

The Sabaean capital, Ma'rib, was located near San'a, today's capital of Yemen, which was reportedly founded by Noah's eldest son Shem (or "Sam" in Arabic) from whose name the word "Sami" in Arabic or "Semitic" in English comes. In addition to their domains in the Arabian Penisula, the Sabaean kings controlled for a long time some parts of the East African coast across the Red Sea where they established the Kingdom of Abyssinia, which is Eritrea today. It should be indicated here that the name “Abyssinia” comes from the Arabic word “Habashah”. One of the most famous rulers of the Sabaeans was Queen Balgais. This mystic Arab Queen of Sheba was well known for her beauty, grace, wealth, charm, and splendor. She reportedly had a famous impassioned encounter with the Hebrew King Solomon when she took a special trip to Jerusalem

The Sabaean Kingdom produced and traded in spices, Arabian frankincense, myrrh, and other Arabian aromatics. The Sabaeans excelled in agriculture and had a remarkable irrigation system with terraced mountains, incredible huge water tunnels in mountains and great dams including the legendary Ma'rib Dam, which was built around 2000 BCE. This Arab dam was considered to be one of the greatest technological wonders of the ancient world. However, the tragic breaking of the Ma'rib Dam around 575, as indicated in the Qur'an, was an event of very traumatic proportions in the collective consciousness of all Arabs at the time and of later generations.

2

The Kingdom of Himyar

The Arab Kingdom of Himyar (115 BCE to 525 CE), which was also located in the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula, had a sizable number of Arab Christians and Arab Jews (not Hebrews). The most prominent Arab Jew of this kingdom was King Dhu al-Nuwas who persecuted his Arab Christian subjects. He reportedly incinerated some of them alive in retaliation for their persecution of Arab Jews in neighboring Arab Christian Najran.

From their capital city, first at Zafar and later at San'a, the powerful Himyarite kings executed military plans which resulted in the expansion of their domains at times eastward as far as the Persian Gulf and northward into the Arabian Desert. However, internal disorder and the changing of trade routes eventually caused the kingdom to suffer political and economic decline. In fact, after several unsuccessful attempts, the African Abyssinians finally invaded the Arab Himyarite Kingdom in 525. In 570, the year Prophet Mohammad was born, the Abyssinian governor Abraha sent an army of elephant-borne troops in an unsuccessful attempt to attack the city of Makkah (Mecca) and destroy its Ka'bah. In 575 the Persians invaded Himyar and ended the Abyssinian presence in Himyar. But the Persians did not last long there either. Soon thereafter Islam swept the entire Arabian Peninsula.

3

The Nabataean Kingdom

The Arab Nabataean Kingdom was established in the 6th century BCE. It was located south of the Dead Sea and along the eastern shores of the Gulf of Aqaba in the northern parts of the Hejaz. The Nabataeans had their capital city in Petra that was a flourishing center of commerce and civilization. The Nabataeans’ great achievements and culture are still echoed in the magnificent carved-in-the-mountains monuments they left behind. Thousands of tourists from all over the world are attracted every year to this Arab region to see these monuments not only at Petra in Jordan but also in Saudi Arabia's Mada'in Salih (i.e., Prophet Salih who warned the Thamud Arab Kingdom to worship Allah before the birth of Prophet Mohammad). The small Arab neighboring Kingdoms of Ad, Thamud, and Lihyan - all also with brilliant monuments and achievements mentioned in the Qu'ran - came under the Nabataean suzerainty for a while.

The Arab Nabataean Kingdom, which at its zenith ruled much of the Syrian interior including Damascus, later became a vassal Roman state and eventually fell victim to European colonialism when it was absorbed into the Roman Empire as the "Provincia Arabia" in 195 CE. In fact, the Roman Emperor Philip, who ruled from 244 to 249, was ethnically an Arab from this Arab Nabataean region. Incidentally, this Roman Emperor who was known as "Philip the Arab", was preceded to the Palatine Hill in Rome by a series of Arab empresses, half-Arab emperors, and the fully Arab Elagabulus of Emesa. It is also believed by some scholars that Philip the Arab was really the first Roman Christian emperor (244-249 CE) rather than Constantine I who ruled the Roman Empire (312-337 CE) 63 years after him.

4

The Kingdom of Tadmor (or Palmyra)

Another important Arab civilization before Islam was the famous Kingdom of Palmyra (or Tadmor in Arabic), which is now Hims in Syria. Although mentioned in some history books as early as the 9th century BCE, Tadmor became only prominent in the 3rd century BCE when it controlled the vital trade route between Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean. The Tadmorians had a great civilization and excelled in international trade. However, like the Nabataeans, they eventually came under the control of the expanding Roman imperialism by becoming another client Arab state of Rome.

In 265 the Tadmorian Arab King Udhayna (or Odenathus) was rewarded by the Romans to become a vice-emperor of the Roman Empire because of his assistance in their war against Persia. However, King Udhayna's widow Zainab (aka az-Zabba or Zenobia), the famous strong Arab queen wanted nothing less for Palmyra than a complete independence from Rome. She succeeded in temporarily driving the Roman invaders out of most of the Fertile Crescent and proclaimed her son Wahballat (or Athenodorus) to be the true emperor of a new independent Arab Palmyra. Queen Zainab's Arabian independent spirit, however, deeply angered the Romans and eventually resulted in the destruction of the Tadmorian Kingdom in 273 by a powerful force of the Roman imperial army. As part of the Roman victory celebration, queen Zainab was brutally taken to Rome in golden chains.

5

The Kingdom of Kindah

Kindat al-Muluk (or the Royal Kindah) was a famous Arab kingdom, which originated in the southern Arabian Peninsula near Yemen's Hadramawt region. Its capital city, al-Fau, was excavated northeast of Najran in Saudi Arabia in 1972 by Saudi archaeologists from King Saud University in Riyadh. The Kingdom of Kindah became prominent around the late 5th and early 6th centuries CE when it made one of the earliest and successful efforts to unite several Arab tribes under its new domain in Najd in central Arabia.

The traditional founder and ruler of Kindah was Hujr Akil al-Murar. However, the most renowned of all Kindah kings was al-Harith ibn Amr, Hujr's grandson, who extended his kingdom's domain north by invading Iraq and temporarily capturing al-Hirah, the capital city of the Arab Christian Kingdom of Lakhmid. But in 529 al-Hirah was liberated by its Christian Arabs who killed King al-Harith along with 50 members of his family. After al-Harith's death, the Kindah Kingdom split up into four factions - Asad, Taghlib, Kinanah, and Qays - each led by a prince. The famous pre-Islamic Arab poet Imru' al-Qays (who died around 540) was the prince of Qays. The continuing feuding between these Arab factions, however, eventually forced the Kindah princes by the middle of the 6th century to withdraw to their original place in southern Arabia next to Yemen. Nevertheless, after Islam was established throughout the Arabian Peninsula, many descendants of the Royal Kindah continued to hold powerful political positions within the Islamic state. In fact, one branch of the Royal Kindah was even successful in gaining great political influence in far away Arab Andalusia in the European Iberian Peninsula.

6

The Kingdom of Lakhmid

The Arab Christian Kingdom of Lakhmid, which originated in the 3rd century CE, reached the height of its power during the 6th century under King al-Munthir III (503-554). Its domain covered from the western shores of the Persian Gulf all the way north to Iraq where its capital city, al-Hira, was located on the Euphrates River near present day Kufah. Working in close cooperation with the Zoroastrian Persian Sasanian Empire to which the Lakhmid Kingdom was a vassal state, al-Munthir III raided and frequently challenged the pro-Byzantine Arab Kingdom of Ghassan in Syria. His son King Amr Ibn Hind was patron of the legendary Arab poet Tarfah Ibn al-Abd and other poets associated with the seven Mu'allaqat (the Suspended Odes") of pre-Islamic Arabia (see "The Jahiliyyah" below). The Lakhmid dynasty eventually disintegrated after the death of its great Arab Christian King an-Nu'man III in 602.

7

The Kingdom of Ghassan

As the Lakhmid Arab Kingdom was Christian so was its Arab neighbor to the west, the Kingdom of Ghassan, whose capital city was Damascus. This Syrian Ghassanid Kingdom was prominent in the 6th century and was an ally of the Byzantine Empire. It protected the vital spice trade route from the south of the Arabian Peninsula and also acted as a buffer against the desert bedouins.

The Ghassanid King al-Harith Ibn Jabalah (reigned 529-569), who was a Monophysite Christian, supported the Christian Byzantine Empire against the Zoroastrian Sasanian Persian Empire and successfully opposed the Arab Kingdom of Lakhmids, which sided with Persians. As a result, King al-Harith was given the title of “Patricius” by the Byzantine emperor Justinian.

Like the Lakhmids, the Ghassanids patronized the arts and many literary geniuses such as al-Nabighah al-Thubyani and Hassan Ibn Thabit. Great Arab poets like them were frequently entertained in the royal courts of the Ghassanid kings. After the emergence of Islam in the 7th century, most inhabitants of the Kingdom of Ghassan became Muslim. One of the most prominent poets of the Kingdom of Ghassan was Hassan Ibn Thabit. Ibn Thabit, who espoused Islam, wrote several famous and beautiful poems in praise of Prophet Mohammad.



Thanks and take care.

 

[agentny17]

How are Mossa ? It been so long since i last saw you, hope things are ok.

 

[happycanuck]

I do not claim to have mastered religions of the world. My only belief has been to be a to fight lie, dishonesty, abusers of fellow human beings, oppressors of people of the world. So there is only one and only one principle of life "Be Honest" each and every time and "Be Humble" to make this world a better place for every one. I will let you guys discuss the topic at hand and let us see if that will resolve the challenges we are facing on this planet, if you do not succeed than please start following two rules of life and see the
the difference you can make in your and fellow human beings.

 

[The SC]

The Iranians did not pay attention to Persian with a view to opposing Islam or Arab influence, nor did they consider Arabic an alien language. They regarded Arabic as the language of Islam . As they accepted Islam as a universal faith, they accepted Arabic also as their own language as well as that of all Muslims. In reality, if each of the other languages of the world, such as Persian, Turkish, English, French or German, is the tongue of a nation and people, Arabic alone is the language of a scripture. For instance, Persian is the language of a nation and people and innumerable individuals have a share in its survival and continuity. Its existence does not depend on the existence of any of its individual speakers, for it is not specially related to any person or book. Neither it is the language of Firdawsi or Rudaki alone, nor it is the language of Nizami or Sa'di or Mawlawi or Hafiz, or any other particular individual. It is the language of all of them. But Arabic alone is the language of a scripture, the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself preserves and safeguards it, and has been the only factor responsible for its life and continuity. All the works written in this language reflect the impact of the Qur'an and were produced on account of the Qur'an. Even the grammar of this language came into existence on account of the Qur'an. All those persons who contributed to Arabic and wrote books in Arabic had been concerned with the Qur'an. It was for the sake of the Qur'an that books of philosophy, mysticism, history, medicine, mathematics and law had been written or translated into this language. As a matter of fact, the Arabic language is the language of a Book and not the language of a nation or a people. If outstanding personalities have paid greater respect to this language than their own mother tongue, they did so due to their belief that it was not confined to any particular nation but was as the language of their creed. For the same reason, they never considered such an attitude to be a sign of disregard for their own language. The people of non-Arab countries believe Arabic to be the language of their faith, while their own mother tongue was regarded as the language of their people. Mawlawi, following some of his famous Arabic verses in the Mathnawi, that is:

Speak Persian, though Arabic is sweeter;

Love itself speaks in a hundred other tongues.

In this couplet Mawlawi expresses his preference for Arabic in compari son to Persian, his own mother tongue, because of its being the language of his faith.

Sa'di, in the fifth chapter of the Gulistan, narrates the fable of a youth of Kashghar who was studying al-Zamakhshari's introduction to Arabic syntax. In this story, he describes Persian as the language of the common man and Arabic as the language of scholars and learned men.

Hafiz, in one of his popular ghazals, says:

Though boasting of one's culture in the presence of the beloved is disrespect,

My tongue is tied, yet my mind is full of Arabic expressions.

According to the late Qazwini in the Best maqaleh ("Twenty Essays"), one of the spiders caught in the web of its own folly - of whom there are not a few these days, with the blessings of the imperialists - always held a grudge against Hafiz for his speaking of Arabic in this couplet as a mark of culture!

Islam, as said above, does not address itself specially to any particular people or group, so that it should grant official status to their tongue and set aside other languages. Zayd ibn Thabit, according to al Mas'udi's report in al-Tanbih wa,al-'ishraf, had, at the Prophet's behest, learnt the Persian, Roman, Coptic and Ethiopian languages from such people in al-Madtnah as knew any one of them; he held the office of the interpreter to the Prophet (S). The books of history have recorded that Amir al-Mu'minin `Ali (A) occasionally spoke Persian.
As a matter of principle, not only plurality of languages is not an impediment in the way of accepting Islam, it is considered a means of the progress of the faith, because each of the various languages with its special beauty and niceties can render an additional service to Islam. One of the achievements of Islam has been that different nations with varied languages and cultures embraced it and each contributed to enrich it with its specific aesthetic taste, culture and language. Had Persian been eliminated, we would not have today been in possession of such valuable Islamic masterpieces as the Mathnawi of Mawlana, the Gulistan of Sa'di, the poetical works of Hafiz, Nizami and hundreds of other beautiful literary works which are filled to the brim with Islamic and Qur'anic ideas and have made Persian an immortal and inseparable part of the Islamic heritage. How good it would have been had there been other languages of Muslims which could also have served Islam with their specific genius and beauty! This was our first point.


As a matter of fact, the cause of Iranians' conversion to Islam and that of their embracing of Shi`ism is only one. The Iranian saw that Islam was in harmony with his spirit and he found what he loved and craved for in Islam. The people of Iran, who were an intelligent people by nature and had, moreover, a rich cultural tradition, were attracted to Islam more than any other nation and served it devotedly. They also understood better than others the spirit of Islam, and for the same reason they gravitated towards the Household of the Prophet (S) and tashayyu` came to be .deeply rooted among them. In other words, the Iranians discovered the true spirit and meaning of Islam in the Family of the Prophet (S). It was the Family which could alone answer and meet their spiritual and intellectual needs.

What attracted the Iranian's thirsting spirit to Islam more than any other thing was the Islamic message of justice and equality. He had been deprived of these for centuries, and awaited such a message. The Iranians observed that the only group of Muslims that was free of prejudice and very keen to establish justice and equality in society and showed an unlimited sensitivity in regard to these values was the Household of the Prophet (S). This honourable Family was seen as the sanctuary of Islamic justice, especially by non-Arab Muslims.

the famous utterance of the Prophet (S), who said:

All men are from Adam and Adam was from dust. The Arab has no merit over a non-Arab except on the basis of piety (taqwa).

That is, race, nationality and lineage are immaterial in Islam. All lineage goes back to Adam, who was made of dust. What ground can that be for any claim of racial superiority?

Islam and Iran: A Historical Study of Mutual Services - Mutahhari

 

[vsdoc]

Iran is shia because the Azeri poet dynasty of Safvid enforced it on the tip of sword. They had vengeance against Islam for demolishing their empire a few hundred years ago (Shah Dynasty was Azeri) and viewed Shism as a rival movement to Islam. Using their legitimacy of a connection with Ahle Bayt via Hussien's wife Sherbano (Daughter of Yazgerd) they actively invaded Islamic lands and enforced Shiaism.

Hmmmmm .... I wonder why this sounds familiar.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[The SC]

Hmmmmm .... I wonder why this sounds familiar.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Commenting on mere speculations does no good, refer to post #170 and read the hole article if interested the link is there.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Commenting on mere speculations does no good, refer to post #170 and read the hole article if interested the link is there.

You have raised a whole thread based on speculative accounts of history.

My suggestion is to quit this "Persia" / "Arab" based debate.
Contribute positively to a " United in the name of Allah " debate.

History is history, what is gone is gone, don't hug it too hard .. it will leave your arms too full to embrace the future.

 

[The SC]

I have started this thread based on the fact that there were too many references and mostly arguments with very negative words and sentiments sometimes when it came to this subject of Iran / the Arabs, the Sunnis/ the Shi'a. and I did it in the name of Allah.
I think that the objective of the thread was reached and it reflects in the more positive postings from the members of the forum.
Some lights have been shed on speculations and history manipulations, but mostly some true and real facts have been highlighted, either helping people understand the difference between speculation and facts or enlightening them altogether.
Have a look at my other postings and you'll find most of it about the Muslim Ummah and its unity in the name of Allah.
So, please...

 

[vsdoc]

Commenting on mere speculations does no good, refer to post #170 and read the hole article if interested the link is there.

I read it and hence my comment.

The sanitized Islamic viewpoint.

I'll give you a hint.

Iran did not magically get transplanted on to Earth as an Islamic country in 650 AD.

It has a documented culture and history that pre-dates that by over 4 millenia.

And I read cribbing here about Shia transplanting Sunni Islam.

And all I hear is a wheel turning.

Not yet full circle.

You may go back to your cozy coterie and pan-Islamic Ummah discussion now.

If you still have not or cannot figure out what the real deal is between the Iranians and the Arabs, you probably never will.

Sorry for interrupting. It holds no interest for me otherwise.

 

[The SC]

I read it and hence my comment.

The sanitized Islamic viewpoint.

I'll give you a hint.

Iran did not magically get transplanted on to Earth as an Islamic country in 650 AD.

It has a documented culture and history that pre-dates that by over 4 millenia.

And I read cribbing here about Shia transplanting Sunni Islam.

And all I hear is a wheel turning.

Not yet full circle.

You may go back to your cozy coterie and pan-Islamic Ummah discussion now.

If you still have not or cannot figure out what the real deal is between the Iranians and the Arabs, you probably never will.

Sorry for interrupting. It holds no interest for me otherwise.

if you want a Muslim to have the same views on the relationship between Muslims as an outsider to Islam does, than you should revise your history and mode of thinking or get yourself and you views sanitised all together.

If you want to talk about Millenia go back and read post #167, if not enough read about Aramaic, you'll find same origins for arabs and persians plus some one adding the jews.

The real deal is Islamic (thwarting Ignorance for both -Jahiliya-) read it in post # 1.

If it holds no interest for you, than you should abstain from threads like these, but I can see that you are trying to bite and the mere word Islamic UMMAH hurts you and your friends, but you can do nothing about it, so your frustrations made you resurface!!!

 

[vsdoc]

if you want a Muslim to have the same views on the relationship between Muslims as an outsider to Islam does, than you should revise your history and mode of thinking or get yourself and you views sanitised all together.

If you want to talk about Millenia go back and read post #167, if not enough read about Aramaic, you'll find same origins for arabs and persians plus some one adding the jews.

The real deal is Islamic (thwarting Ignorance for both -Jahiliya-) read it in post # 1.

If it holds no interest for you, than you should abstain from threads like these, but I can see that you are trying to bite and the mere word Islamic UMMAH hurts you and your friends, but you can do nothing about it, so your frustrations made you resurface!!!

Fair enough. Please continue. The PDF of old had no place for religious discourse, but apparently things have changed.

What people of Persian stock feel towards the Christian and Jewish world is animosity.

What they feel towards the Arab world on the other hand is disdain.

And that goes much deeper than religion, and per the topic of this thread stretches a longer way back than just the relatively recent birth of Islam, which is where I feel you guys are scratching the surface here in the ongoing love fest.

For obvious reasons.

You speak of jahilya? I wonder if you know the special term Persians have that's reserved for much the same - from the other end of the spectrum.

If you pit blood against religion, religion will lose. Every time. Not just yours, but any religion.

Don't take my word as an Indian. Simply go on to any of the many vocal Iranian forums around the net and read for yourself.

That should put the politically correct views of the Iranians here into perspective on a forum where they are outnumbered by a Sunni and predominantly non-Persian Indic and Arab majority.

As I said, please continue.

 

[The SC]

I shall, since you talk like a poet .

You and me as I told you before are not talking about the same thing, you are talking about "Persians", while I am talking about the Islamic Republic of Iran.

You seem or want to be knowledgeable, but lacking too much in realism.
The Muslim Ummah is Here to stay, it is huge and powerful, it is a family where
misunderstandings still exist, but it is a family.
I know this is scary to many people!

Some Arabs started with disdain towards Persians in the first place in the Jahiliya (ignorance) era and afterwards, they were both arrogant people till the avenue of Islam 1500 years ago (if that is recent to you than I send you back to Mesopotamia and Egypt the cradles of ancient civilisation and the Arab kingdoms (Shaba and Nabateeans to name a few), there you'll find Sumerians, Ur and babylon all in the arabo-persian area and the indus valley south of Persia than, where they were full of conflicts, hatred and disdain ( negative emotions found in most people, sure enough that if I put Any Hindu or Persian or Arab or anyone else from your forums with a smelly commoner, a bum or a low cast like you call them, they will have disdain and if the guy sticks around than hate and violence will take effect, So Islam came and forbid this and slavery, leading by example, it just took those same people and made better humans of them; acceptable, because cleaner physically and spiritually, but not everyone liked it! ) so you won't be scratching the surface of things and projecting your shortcomings on others after reading this.
This is the place where all major religions were born, so to add a bit to your knowledge Islam is an Ibrahamic religion dating back to before Judaism, Zoroastrianism , Christianity or Hinduism, even before that, since Adam is considered to be the first prophet of Islam.

So, the day you and others like you read the Koran without any preconceived thought and try to understand deeply what it means to be Muslim without the stereotypes in your minds, but as a scientific study (actually you need a deep and advanced understanding of sciences) to understand the Universal microcosmic as well as macro-cosmic matters and laws described in the Koran, plus all the earthly matters comprising the human behaviour and social sciences and every single thing in existence (1500 years and much older witch stands true up till today) , without these values of morality and ethics you just live like an animal...

Politically correct is very very relative, since everyone (even insane people) think they are politically correct, thus all these conflicts in the world from top to bottom.

So what I do understand is that you want to be in a conversation concerning internal affairs of Muslims by bringing up history as you see it, and trying to create a conflict! it won't work for you or others, but you are welcome to discuss any other matter...

 

[vsdoc]

I shall, since you talk like a poet .

You and me as I told you before are not talking about the same thing, you are talking about "Persians", while I am talking about the Islamic Republic of Iran.

You are talking about Iran and the Arabs since the begining of Islam. That is like 650 AD.

1500 years I think not.

I am merely pointing out to you that a lot (oceans) of water passed below that particular bridge before that recent occurence, and THAT more than anything is the genesis of the impossibility of your Ummah.

Yes, Islam and its followers are beholden and exhorted to strive for the Ummah.

But which Islam? You guys need to settle that first.

Is it not ironical that the first victory of Islam also sowed the seeds of its split?

This is the place where all major religions were born, so to add a bit to your knowledge Islam is an Ibrahamic religion dating back to before Judaism, Zoroastrianism , Christianity or Hinduism, even before that, since Adam is considered to be the first prophet of Islam.

Islam is the youngest and the most recent of the major religions of the world.

There is a cycle that each religion goes through, a growth and evolutionary curve if you must.

Islam today is where the one in line before, Christianity, was during the medieval ages.

It is a period of strife and internal churn you must necessarily go through, before enlightenment and toning it down many notches.

 

[The SC]

You have no solid argument at all, you are distorting the facts and reality to suit your distorted views of a Zionist.
The Muslim Ummah Exists and this fact alone hurts you very badly, let alone one Universal Islam.
I pity you, and wish you find yourself something else to think about. This is too real for you to accept.
So go play with your low life pairs, since your ignorance can only be beaten by your ignorance.
I am referring to your last comment, and it seems that you are very slow in understanding (maybe a brain condition), you can read and reread and than re-reread to sink it in your rock like brain, and than answer, but if it hurts you too much do not even bother to answer, ignore the thread and go on with your life or what seems to you as a life, it looks to me more of a lie than a life.
I tell you all this because of your arrogance of know it all, witch in psychology is called an inferiority complex projected as a superiority complex, so please go seek some help elsewhere.