Introducing - JF-17 Thunder Block - II

[volatile]

he problem with a post like yours with multiple facets and conjectures is it becomes difficult to answer. Please post your suppositions in the relevant sections, ie F16 saga in F16 section and so on and so forth and then we can talk.

Agreed but my questions are related to political/defense related not technology related

Secondly people have no concept of the problems with inducting multiple platforms and the time and costs involved. Thirdly you guys think that as soon as we request something it will be available to you without realizing that key note technology is a weapon in its own rights and the blackmail associated with its provision is a fact that you guys have no clue about.

No body wants to do this and why but still we have ,Mirages,F7s ,F16 ,F17 (4 platforms inducted and running) so i would like to ask do we need blackmailed technology or we will compromise on little less but with ease , Indians regardless of what we all say and think they stood their grounds on US tech and fighters and now US is literally begging them to induct any platform they wanted other than F22

For the AF sections please segregate your post into relevant sections and tag me and I will respond to you. I must say that if you are just here to have a rant then dont bother but if you want to learn then follow instructions.
A

Totally agreed and will do that but if you kindly look upward discussions you will find what is going around .

 

[araz]

L

Agreed but my questions are related to political/defense related not technology related

No body wants to do this and why but still we have ,Mirages,F7s ,F16 ,F17 (4 platforms inducted and running) so i would like to ask do we need blackmailed technology or we will compromise on little less but with ease , Indians regardless of what we all say and think they stood their grounds on US tech and fighters and now US is literally begging them to induct any platform they wanted other than F22

Totally agreed and will do that but if you kindly look upward discussions you will find what is going around .

The only answerable section is the second one. If you look at our current inventory it is because of the fact that we have had very little in the way of both choices and money. People who think that the world is dying to sell to PAF NEED to look at histlry and how our equipment was still not being supplied to us when tensions breweed up between India and Pakistan. These two factors have resulted in some emrgency buying in times of need compromising quality over quantity. This is why we ended up with multiple platforms.
As to your initial post about political and PAF mindset you need to look atcthings from both sides before passing judgement. You have the PAF angle missing from your post which is why you are not getting to the right decisions.
A

 

[RAMPAGE]

Sir,

My motherland---Pakistan---has given me the right to chose two nationalities and swear allegiance to two nations.

You may have made mistakes but you have never openly admitted to them----.

Secondly---you are military---when you make mistakes---you get a bigger punishment---which can be to the level as high as the North Korean Defense minister---.

Your statements are a joke----. You have never been held accountable for anything---. None has ever asked you any questions and held you responsible for your failures.

You defending the honor of traitors---who let the terrs destroy the national assets at karachi base---kamra base---Badaber base---.

See---the destruction of these bases don't give you an aorta of a bother---otherwise you would have torn your heart out and accepted that a travesty has happened.

That is why I say again---we have god worshipped you for 50 years---. This the first time you have come across someone who knows your naked truth that how fake you are---and you are screaming now.

This has gone too far Mastan Sahab ......

 

[RAMPAGE]

Hi,

Really---he calls me a ' BUGGER '---did you say anything to it----.

He degrades my profession---" used car salesman " did you say anything to it----.

My loyalties lie with Pakistan, Its people and its institutions, Not with individuals. Now I'm all for constructive criticism but you've taken it too far. PAF is one of the better performing institutions and has lately been doing a good job.

 

[aliyusuf]

@RAMPAGE

No individual or institution should be above accountability and law. No matter how esteemed an individual or august an institution. No one is a holy cow.

@MastanKhan Sb has raised a point of negligence on the PAF's part in the Kamra attack incident ... about which there can be no two opinions. I may not attest to his way of putting his point across, but he does have a valid argument here. In the back drop of existing intelligence alert (after the attack on the GHQ-Pindi) that vital military installations and bases were under threat of terror strikes (this was in 2012 if memory serves me right). Priori to that incident, the Mehran base incident also took place where a number of upgraded P-3C Orion aircrafts were destroyed/damaged.

The most damning thing was that the Air force after the incident, gave out a statement claiming that only a single Saab-2000 Erieye was damaged (in the Kamra Incident). Reality was later revealed to be more severe than that.

All this can and should irk patriotic Pakistanis. And this being a discussion forum, should be tolerated to be discussed and opinions shared ... minus the name callings.

I am a die hard supporter of Pakistan Military. But that does not mean I will condone this smoke screen tactics to cover mistakes and negligence. Meaning no disrespect to any ex / retired servicemen members of this forum. I believe mistakes can happen, but the solution is not in attempting to hide that mistake.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@RAMPAGE

No individual or institution should be above accountability and law. No matter how esteemed an individual or august an institution. No one is a holy cow.

@MastanKhan Sb has raised a point of negligence on the PAF's part in the Kamra attack incident ... about which there can be no two opinions. I may not attest to his way of putting his point across, but he does have a valid argument here. In the back drop of existing intelligence alert (after the attack on the GHQ-Pindi) that vital military installations and bases were under threat of terror strikes (this was in 2012 if memory serves me right). Priori to that incident, the Mehran base incident also took place where a number of upgraded P-3C Orion aircrafts were destroyed/damaged.

The most damning thing was that the Air force after the incident, gave out a statement claiming that only a single Saab-2000 Erieye was damaged (in the Kamra Incident). Reality was later revealed to be more severe than that.

All this can and should irk patriotic Pakistanis. And this being a discussion forum, should be tolerated to be discussed and opinions shared ... minus the name callings.

I am a die hard supporter of Pakistan Military. But that does not mean I will condone this smoke screen tactics to cover mistakes and negligence. Meaning no disrespect to any ex / retired servicemen members of this forum. I believe mistakes can happen, but the solution is not in attempting to hide that mistake.

I am busy right at the moment so you can expect a reply by tomorrow. However, I agree with your opening line but I don't agree that PAF personnel should be executed by AA guns, nor do I believe that they deserve such comments.

 

[aliyusuf]

I don't agree that PAF personnel should be executed by AA guns, nor do I believe that they deserve such comments.

Sir, I totally agree with you on this. If you refer to my post, I too am against such comments and name calling. But I will not condone negligence and then the attempt to cover that up.

 

[AsifIjaz]

I am a medic by education and profession.. I have got 2 generations serving the mother land as I type this... I have got close friends rather brothers serving in air force, navy and army.... 2 of my late friends died defending the honour of this mother land we call home... both of their wives and kids suffer and I witness and unfortunately live those painful moments on a regular basis.. I have had the agony of saying Quran Khuwani daily while waiting for the dead body of a family member while his convoy was ambushed by Taliban and after 6 days he came out alive with his dozen wounded patients whom he refuse to part with..

Now that I have established my credentials as a countrymen who has got family practically serving and laying life for this country.. please let me say that..
Mastan sb... There is a very thin and I'll defined line drawn between reality and fiction... between accountability and victimization and between passion and paranoia.
You may speak ur mind about any point and to what level u want as that's ur right but to humilate and question countless people and organization that my brothers have given their life for is a heinous... sinister and a cowardly act.
U cry a river that a fellow service man called u a used car sales man while u talked trash about his life mission... goals and organization that he and most if not all his acquaintances were breathing ... eating and sleeping on a daily basis. Come on he did not pass a remark about ur profession for long while u kept on tearing flesh out of his profession.
Come on mastan sb.. open up Ur eyes and for once see and embrace reality .. I expect u to be bigger than ur last few messages as this is the image I have developed over yrs.
Ur passion for air force is commendable so is your writing skills but if u will pass comments about livelihood or life long profession then be ready to face the same music as well.
People living in glass houses should not throw stones.

BR

ASIF
p.s. I don't care what u say about fellow member on a personal basis but once u bring in the place and organizations that my brothers laid their lives for... plz that is personal.
Screw ups happen with everyone and at every organization . E.g. USA =F35 ... India= mmrca/tejas, scorpians, aircraft carriers from russia ... japan=f22 lollipop and Paf= f16 / Rafael

 

[Tipu7]

Proof that Jf17 is BVR capable? Test video? Pic?
Yes, this capability has been proven, integrated, fired, DH. However, videos were not released as the test range was not local. However, as soon as the new test range is complete (its almost there), it shall be shared with the public more openly than you think.

Okay.

Proof that Jf17 can fire C802? Test video? Pic?
Integrated, and ordered. Tests will be undertaken with the Navy possibly in 2017 MISSEX and 2018 as well. Lets keep fingers crossed.

Minhas squadron is recently armed with Jf17 for Maritime role. What we heard that it is armed with BVR missiles and anti ship missiles (C802 series) ..............
What are you suggesting that weapon is integrated and yet to arm? How can a dedicated squadron can be raised with out arming it with dedicated weapon system?

Proof that Jf17 can carry LGB? Test video? Pic?
This capability is underway. this maybe combined with GBU-12 derived local weapon, or REK weapon with SALC. This will only be complete proven after the integrated of the targeting pod.

Have we used LGB in Zarb e Azb via Jf17? Why there is no pic of Jf17 carrying LGB?

What is Jf17 pure air to air configuration? Pic? Video?
WV,BV, Tank, BV, WV. Right now is PL5, SD10 combination. In the future, this is about to change.

So a single Jf17 can carry 2 BVR & 2 WVR missiles at its best. Why all under wing hard points cannot accommodate air to air missiles? What is future of DER for air to air missiles? is it even in consideration or just a speculation?

What is Jf17 pure air to ground configuration? Pic? Video?
Various AG options under qualification, options are GPB on DER, PGMs, Sat guided or SALC, or REK weapons. LAGRs are also in consideration for qualification for export customer.

Still under qualification? What we have achieved in first two blocks as far as air to ground munition is concerned?

Proof that Jf17 is capable of carrying and firing anti radiation & stand off munition? Test video? Pic?
There is no ARM integrated yet. Various REKs are under trials.

Same again, why still under trials. I know integration of very different type of weapon system is not a easy job, but looking at current combat readiness of Jf7, is it wise to assume that this air craft is still ''half ready''.........?

Jf17 can refuel in air, proof? Refueling from Il78.......
Yet to be realised. South African probe and Mirage approach abandoned. Other possibilities being explored and tested/qualified.

In old threads of Jf17, it was ''assumed'' that Blk1 will carry IFR probe. But then it was said that Blk2 will carry IFR probe. When Blk2 came out it was stated that air craft No 229 and coming next to it will carry IFR probe. Now that air craft is already here and Final probe is yet to be seen. Though current Blk2 have refueling mechanism and all it demand a probe from external source to be installed. So untill now, why not IFR design is finalized? What is issue?
By that time PAF must be conducting drills with air flight refueling but still it is no where to be seen.............

A lot of these videos shall eventually come to public eye. The problem is that people get too excited by seeing a static being air trialled or qualified, regardless of the contract being placed. These projects take time. I know you are asking for proof etc but I will give you a little feedback without any such proofs:

Proof that Jf17 is BVR capable? Test video? Pic?
Yes, this capability has been proven, integrated, fired, DH. However, videos were not released as the test range was not local. However, as soon as the new test range is complete (its almost there), it shall be shared with the public more openly than you think.

Proof that Jf17 can fire C802? Test video? Pic?
Integrated, and ordered. Tests will be undertaken with the Navy possibly in 2017 MISSEX and 2018 as well. Lets keep fingers crossed.

Proof that Jf17 can carry LGB? Test video? Pic?
This capability is underway. this maybe combined with GBU-12 derived local weapon, or REK weapon with SALC. This will only be complete proven after the integrated of the targeting pod.

What is Jf17 pure air to air configuration? Pic? Video?
WV,BV, Tank, BV, WV. Right now is PL5, SD10 combination. In the future, this is about to change.

What is Jf17 pure air to ground configuration? Pic? Video?
Various AG options under qualification, options are GPB on DER, PGMs, Sat guided or SALC, or REK weapons. LAGRs are also in consideration for qualification for export customer.

Proof that Jf17 is capable of carrying and firing anti radiation & stand off munition? Test video? Pic?
There is no ARM integrated yet. Various REKs are under trials.

Jf17 can refuel in air, proof? Refueling from Il78.......
Yet to be realised. South African probe and Mirage approach abandoned. Other possibilities being explored and tested/qualified.

Proof about CM400AKG?
Not ordered. Qualification complete. Maybe ordered after test demonstration by vendor.

BR


far from exaggeration, but these boys do need to know, so I have given them something. The general disinformation and deception is getting to them.

How authentic is this pic?

 

[araz]

Hi,

I maybe a used car salesman---at least I am not a traitor-----. I provide my family with a hard days living working 55--60 hours a week---.

I don't get kick backs and steal money from the national funds by the like of you who has bilked the nation for millions and millions on fraudulent invoices and kickbacks---.

On top of that I sned dollars to pakistan--and what do the likes of you do---steal money from pakistan and govt contracts and take it outside of the country---.

Where you steal money from poor of pakistan and take it abroad---I send my hard earnt money to my motherland every month take care of some poor and needy.

Mods----you allowed him to degrade my profession---and this is in response to it.




Hi,

Really---he calls me a ' BUGGER '---did you say anything to it----.

He degrades my profession---" used car salesman " did you say anything to it----.

Where has it gone too far---.

Has he condemned the destruction of the air bases in pakistan---or the deaths of the soldiers and called onto the officers incharge who failed to protect the national assets.

A destruction of a BILLION dollars of assets---and at that time we only had 12 billion dollars in reserves---that is 1/12 of our money is gone---because they did not take enough actions to protect them.

You should know by now why he has not condemned those acts---because he was part of them---part of the negligent team who allowed it to happen.

This is now getting personal. I would suggest you stop this tirade and take a chill pill. No one is beyond reproach here but to label people as traitors or culpable for a crime not committed is a fallacy and delusional on your part. One of your problems with your tirades has always been the lack of evidence which you have always shied away from because you have none. Accusing people of treason without facts to hand is classed as slander. You are a car salesman and there is nothing wrong with it and neither has such been implied. What has repeatedly been questioned is the proof for your tirade which you have never provided. I am humbly suggesting that you confine yourself to facts that can be proven rather than useless slander.
MODS please review these posts and take appropriate action as we have had slanderous posts without any facts and name calling.
A

 

[mourning sage]

This is now getting personal. I would suggest you stop this tirade and take a chill pill. No one is beyond reproach here but to label people as traitors or culpable for a crime not committed is a fallacy and delusional on your part. One of your problems with your tirades has always been the lack of evidence which you have always shied away from because you have none. Accusing people of treason without facts to hand is classed as slander. You are a car salesman and there is nothing wrong with it and neither has such been implied. What has repeatedly been questioned is the proof for your tirade which you have never provided. I am humbly suggesting that you confine yourself to facts that can be proven rather than useless slander.
MODS please review these posts and take appropriate action as we have had slanderous posts without any facts and name calling.
A

Why is every thread turning into an MK vs. The rest? People have opinions. Accept this and move on. First it was MK vs. Bossman which ruined an entire volume of jf-17 thread, then Oscar vs. MK and now MK vs. Bilal Khan. You seem to respect everyone's opinion, teach your fellow board members perhaps and clean up the threads?

 

[RAMPAGE]

@aliyusuf

There's not much left to say as you've agreed with what I've said. Like I've said before, Constructive criticism is perfectly fine but repeated personal attacks against an individual and generalization is what I do not condone. I hope that @MastanKhan is able to get over, whatever this is, so that we may go back to our discussions. I would hate to see him banned and this forum deprived from what,not long ago, used to be his sane comments.

As far as his grievances regarding the PAF not acquiring a strike aircraft are concerned, I would say that the need for such a platform is was not there until recently. The payload required for successful SEAD operations and strikes against enemy assets covered by modern air defence is far too much too be carried by any platform operated by PAF. We are talking about anti radiation missiles, ALCMs and Mimicking Decoys along with BVR, WVR and guided bombs. None of our fighters are capable of delivering half of such a package. But remember, I'm saying that this need is recent.

@MastanKhan

Regarding the the Kamra and Mehran base attacks, I would suggest that if you think that there has been a serious misconduct of justice or if you don't trust the Military to take the appropriate disciplinary and precautionary measures then you can always contact a court of law. You can also always file a petition with the Senate of Pakistan. Please seek advice from some officer before you take any such action, That is if you want to succeed in what you're doing. You an also gather followers from the Public by using a social media platform. Doing that would be much better and productive than what you're doing on this thread

http://publicpetition.senate.gov.pk/index.php

http://www.senate.gov.pk/uploads/documents/updatedrpcb.pdf#page=104

http://publicpetition.senate.gov.pk/petition.pdf

 

[araz]

Why is every thread turning into an MK vs. The rest? People have opinions. Accept this and move on. First it was MK vs. Bossman which ruined an entire volume of jf-17 thread, then Oscar vs. MK and now MK vs. Bilal Khan. You seem to respect everyone's opinion, teach your fellow board members perhaps and clean up the threads?

I think you are putting him on a padestal he is not worthy of. You forget that I have been on this forum since 2006. I have a good grasp of most seniors and their view points. I have seen people come and go, some very respectable posters some notorious ones as well. I have had a lot of engagement with MK and know him well. In general I tend to avoid getting into a debate with him. However,I do take exception to personal attacks and slanderous posts by any member and will report them. This is not the first time that Mr MK has done this or repeated his tirade and that too without any facts to base them on. A lot of very senior people have engaged him including the very people directly involved in the deals he has ranted on about but his views have remained unchanged inspite of very logical responses given by Ex PAF people of Air commodore level and people involved with the aviation industry.
However this is just to give you a perspective about MK and his rants which we have all had to suffer through for the last decade. After a little while it does get boring. Most senior members have him on their ignore lists and do not engage him. However I will not sit by and allow personal insults and slander to go on and spoil threads. No one denies PAF has made mistakes or that there has not been negligence and complacency. However painting ALL with one brush and calling people traitors is unfair. MK is not the only patriot around on the board but his holier than thou approach needs to be curtailed.
Regards
A

 

[AsifIjaz]

Hi,

See---you are a part of the problem---. You have those who sacrificed their lives---and yet you want to protect those who don't give a rat's ar-se because your dear ones wore the same uniform.

You should have been screaming murder at them----what has gone wrong with you kids---no one teaches you about character and standing tall---.

You are putting me down---and I am the one asking for accountability---so that you near and dear ones would not die in vain.

I am questioning why a potent aircraft was not procured 25 years ago---so that you near and dear ones when they went to fight knew that there was something strong to back them up---and you are blaming me.

I am questioning all the deceit and deception by the air force---so that when your near and dear ones would go to fight---they will not be the under dogs when it comes to weapons---and you are questioning my loyalty to my motherland----.

Son---you are the tragedy my motherland is----you and the likes of you----when you don't standup.

I am asking why there were no weapons available to soldiers at karachi / mehran base----why were the weapons locked up----why was mehran base not ready for terrs attack---why was kamra base not ready for terrs attack---why was Badaber base not ready for terrs attack---and you want to blame me for asking these questions?

a few things mastan Khan...
1) when you start calling people son- it is either out of generosity as you have more knowledge, respect/love or because of an elderly stature...
You have lost all three hence please refrain.
2) I will ask for your help or your guidance once I or the families I talk of need it, think it's required or once we are incapable of managing our loss... till then please do what you do best and I.e. find another battle. Our demons are asleep and we are at peace. Accept it.
3) you talk of teachings around character and standing tall... well mastan you are a lucky guy sir, as that teaching is exactly what is preventing me from telling you what an imbecile you are.
4) I repeat mastan... you like everyone are entitled to ask questions ... U should.. rather u must.. that's ur God given right. Nobody is blaming you for questioning a belief. But be humble and inquisitive. When a person opens his/her mouth then he/she should care for the feelings of others. That's a moral and a religious duty of yours and one that is the root cause of my problem with you.
Don't be the defendant/pleader, lawyer and the judge... All in one go. You can question but don't pass verdicts.
Our demons are asleep, we are at peace and we would like to keep it that way. We don't want a twit making a fuss out of it.
4) Lastly fiascos do happen... everywhere. You are not the one to decide the course of action afterwards. (Read point 3 again). You have lost a few countrymen you left behind..granted...
But once you send in a brother to the war zone and then every phone call or door bell makes you skip a heart beat till one day you actually loose a brother or a blood relative for the place we call home... it is then you earn the right to shout like a warmonger. Till that happens please either check your language or go sit in that armchair of yours and relax in that hard earned house of yours (no pun intended).
We are still down here... We are not running away, no sir we won't. We are proud of our sacrifices, we are still doing practical work and still fighting our battles on the front and not on our hand helds.

I would not like to reply you any more. Not because I can't but because you ain't worth it. You are a saddist or a masochistic but in either case I will deal with you when you come in to my clinic seeking my professional help. Till then adios

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Okay.

Minhas squadron is recently armed with Jf17 for Maritime role. What we heard that it is armed with BVR missiles and anti ship missiles (C802 series) ..............
What are you suggesting that weapon is integrated and yet to arm? How can a dedicated squadron can be raised with out arming it with dedicated weapon system?

Have we used LGB in Zarb e Azb via Jf17? Why there is no pic of Jf17 carrying LGB?

So a single Jf17 can carry 2 BVR & 2 WVR missiles at its best. Why all under wing hard points cannot accommodate air to air missiles? What is future of DER for air to air missiles? is it even in consideration or just a speculation?

Still under qualification? What we have achieved in first two blocks as far as air to ground munition is concerned?

Same again, why still under trials. I know integration of very different type of weapon system is not a easy job, but looking at current combat readiness of Jf7, is it wise to assume that this air craft is still ''half ready''.........?

In old threads of Jf17, it was ''assumed'' that Blk1 will carry IFR probe. But then it was said that Blk2 will carry IFR probe. When Blk2 came out it was stated that air craft No 229 and coming next to it will carry IFR probe. Now that air craft is already here and Final probe is yet to be seen. Though current Blk2 have refueling mechanism and all it demand a probe from external source to be installed. So untill now, why not IFR design is finalized? What is issue?
By that time PAF must be conducting drills with air flight refueling but still it is no where to be seen.............


How authentic is this pic?

View attachment 315727

In box me, I will give you additional information.