Introducing - JF-17 Thunder Block - II

[Bilal Khan 777]

Okay.

Minhas squadron is recently armed with Jf17 for Maritime role. What we heard that it is armed with BVR missiles and anti ship missiles (C802 series) ..............
What are you suggesting that weapon is integrated and yet to arm? How can a dedicated squadron can be raised with out arming it with dedicated weapon system?

Have we used LGB in Zarb e Azb via Jf17? Why there is no pic of Jf17 carrying LGB?

So a single Jf17 can carry 2 BVR & 2 WVR missiles at its best. Why all under wing hard points cannot accommodate air to air missiles? What is future of DER for air to air missiles? is it even in consideration or just a speculation?

Still under qualification? What we have achieved in first two blocks as far as air to ground munition is concerned?

Same again, why still under trials. I know integration of very different type of weapon system is not a easy job, but looking at current combat readiness of Jf7, is it wise to assume that this air craft is still ''half ready''.........?

In old threads of Jf17, it was ''assumed'' that Blk1 will carry IFR probe. But then it was said that Blk2 will carry IFR probe. When Blk2 came out it was stated that air craft No 229 and coming next to it will carry IFR probe. Now that air craft is already here and Final probe is yet to be seen. Though current Blk2 have refueling mechanism and all it demand a probe from external source to be installed. So untill now, why not IFR design is finalized? What is issue?
By that time PAF must be conducting drills with air flight refueling but still it is no where to be seen.............


How authentic is this pic?

View attachment 315727

JF17 is how old? A couple of years? Aircraft take 10-15 years in development and harmonisation. The aircraft was put in service ahead of time to start pilot training. Weapon selection and implementation is a long project. I cannot vouch for propaganda, and can only give you my opinion. You may not like some of my opinions, but those are just my take on the situation.

Again remember, what aircraft is JF17 replacing? A5, F6, F7 and Blk 15 F16. Now think everything from frame of reference. The bulk of countries' fighters aren't or don't have to be on steroids and 5th generation. Numbers matter, and BVR, data linked, and fully operational capability en-masse is implemented.

Now think critically, why would a squadron in PAF BASE MINHAS given anti shipping role? The anti shipping role will be for squadrons at Masroor (like the Mirage V PA2 PA3 in 8th Squadron today), or at the new airbase being raised in Sind. However, ALL JF17 aircraft will be able to fire the ordnance as it is qualified fleet wide.

I am not familiar with JF17 and zarb azab operations. Mostly, F16s have been used.

The configuration I told you is sufficient for Air to Air Interdiction. DER for AG role is proven. I don't know if there is a DER for air to air role, as it adds a lot of G loading on the wing hard point at launch.

I told you of the deployed configuration in a particular role, not at best. There is no "at best" there are different configurations for different roles.. More ordnance can be carried, in different configurations.

Cannot give specifics of the various ordnance that is already integrated and qualified.

The aircraft is not half ready, whichever squadron it has joined, that squadron has a role, and the aircraft is equipped to meet that role. The weapon integration and procurement is all staggered and timed with that.

IFR probe is not a JF17 issue, but a bigger problem which I am unable to elaborate. JF17s are IFR ready.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I am not OK with that sir but it is just like i am not OK with criticism of ANYONE without merit, proof, and based on flawed analysis and conjecture.

I just want to say that it is not that everything he says is totally wrong, there is some truth to it as well and we all know it. On the other hand, much of it is exaggeration because of that sense of disappointment and anger and that is wrong on his part and i always ask him to stop that. Just want you two to realize that at the end of the day, most of us are working toward the same end goal!!

Here is a post i will like you to go through, PLEASE and request you to focus some energy in this thread. A lot is being challenged and your expertise can be of great help.
https://defence.pk/threads/discussion-thunder-and-tejas.437724/page-2#post-8436438

Apparently I don't have the privilege to comment on TEJAS. Well, i don't understand the technical stuff anyway.

 

[litman]

JF17 is how old?
Again remember, what aircraft is JF17 replacing? A5, F6, F7 and Blk 15 F16. .

JFT was never meant to replace the blk 15 falcons. as these jets have been upgraded to blk 50 standards JFT Blk 2 is not equal to F-16 blk 15 MLU.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

JFT was never meant to replace the blk 15 falcons. as these jets have been upgraded to blk 50 standards JFT Blk 2 is not equal to F-16 blk 15 MLU.

Kindly think about what you are saying, taking emotions out of the equation. We are all addicted to an F16, but that doesn't change reality.

Why have Blk 15 falcons upgraded? Because they needed replacement. Who will do bulk of the work now? Something similar which is JFT, plus the BVR implementation.

Who says Blk2 is equal to MLU? That is an assumption on your part. JFT, in its implemented configuration in the next years, will far exceed the Block 15 MLU. However, specifically to my comment, please ask yourself, has JFT exceeded the original Block 15 configuration, which was one of the aircraft type it was designed to replace??

 

[JamD]

Now think critically, why would a squadron in PAF BASE MINHAS given anti shipping role? The anti shipping role will be for squadrons at Masroor (like the Mirage V PA2 PA3 in 8th Squadron today), or at the new airbase being raised in Sind. However, ALL JF17 aircraft will be able to fire the ordnance as it is qualified fleet wide.

The configuration I told you is sufficient for Air to Air Interdiction. DER for AG role is proven. I don't know if there is a DER for air to air role, as it adds a lot of G loading on the wing hard point at launch.

I believe the minhas SQUADRON (No.2 squadron I believe) was being referred to which is based at Masroor. But it did replace F-7s, not mirages so your point may still be valid.

What is DER?

 

[litman]

JFT was never meant to replace the blk 15 falcons. it is the replacement for mirages, F-7 , A-5. PAF will be foolish to replace the blk 15 falcons after getting MLU. these jets have 20 more years of life in them . JFT with lesser payload, range, radar range, max speed will never be able to replace the F-16 MLU. F- 16 will be replaced by some 5th gen jet in future. JFT will need almost a newer design for a powerful engine, radar etc. i am not getting emotional but i am simply realistic. If JFT is such a great plane then why PAF is begging the whole world for F-16s. as far as JFT blk 3 is concerned it is just a dream .

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I believe the minhas SQUADRON (No.2 squadron I believe) was being referred to which is based at Masroor. But it did replace F-7s, not mirages so your point may still be valid.

What is DER?

All JFTs will have same ordnance capability. No 2 is Air Superiority Sq and not Maritime Strike, which is No. 8. However, No.2 is now dual role. It is possible that PN opts to maintain the AM39 capability hence PA2/PA3 are seen for a while.

JFT was never meant to replace the blk 15 falcons. it is the replacement for mirages, F-7 , A-5. PAF will be foolish to replace the blk 15 falcons after getting MLU. these jets have 20 more years of life in them . JFT with lesser payload, range, radar range, max speed will never be able to replace the F-16 MLU. F- 16 will be replaced by some 5th gen jet in future. JFT will need almost a newer design for a powerful engine, radar etc. i am not getting emotional but i am simply realistic. If JFT is such a great plane then why PAF is begging the whole world for F-16s. as far as JFT blk 3 is concerned it is just a dream .

Block 3 is far from a dream, but I know why you feel that way. JF17, in all its operational capability, far exceeds Block 15 F16. In operational assessment, JFT replaces the role of the original Block 15, and hence the roles are being reassigned. Block 15 F16 have already been replaced, by MLU aircraft, and have new roles.

 

[HRK]

@Bilal Khan 777 ....

Sir a humble request you use lot of abbreviations & jargons in your post which some is not understandable to most of the readers, therefore If possible plz give a brief description/meaning to those abbreviation or jargon used ...

 

[punit]

I dont completely agree but you see how the bottomline comes without all the exaggerations and false premises you provided which is wrong.

The need for an air superiority aircraft would rest on the need to go fight outside territorial Pakistan and be able to establish Air superiority in enemy territory. Neither are requirements as Offensive Counter Air operations are now going to be switching to stand off systems and any battlefield air superiority has both sides with their respective air defense environments will continuously be contested. As soon as the battlefield switches to either territory, the advantage automatically shifts to that nation.

Air superiority fighters were concepts used to face down overwhelming numbers in non-networked environments. The ACEVAL exercises carried out by the USAF proved that bigger radars and bigger sizes arent useful in many scenarios; what matters is situational awareness which is not dependent on size but on the sophistication of the sensor and the number of sensor inputs.

Air superiority fighters suit those looking to fight outside their airspace and over areas not within reach. If air superiority fighters were all that would save nations; sweden would invest in them right after the Su-27 was heard of. I have already shown this in earlier replies to similar false notions put forward by you on earlier threads and dont have any reply that disputes this logically.


I think the issue is that there is a vast cultural differrence between our neighbors and ourselves. I am not stating it as good or bad, just the differrence. Where one side will post news everytime they change a tire on an aircraft, the other is paranoid to not even let a whisper move when an entire weapons systems is deployed.

I think it boils down to accountability.

 

[-xXx-]

@MastanKhan

Sir I read your "now deleted" posts and can only have sympathy for you.

I am not sure if you watch bollywood, but there was a movie named "Rang De Basanti" by Amir Khan. In that movie there was a gang of 4 friend and one of them was IAF pilot. That guy got killed in a MIG crash and we all know that whose fault is that we are still flying Migs. The rest of the friends started agitation and revolted against the defence ministry and airforce top brass for the negligence and putting the lives of poor Indian on stake. Later all friends were killed unfortunately.

So shall the IAF fighter be proud? Yes he should.
But shouldn't we make IAF and ministry accountable? yes we should.

The movie was a big hit.

So @MastanKhan I know how you are feeling now. The people like @AsifIjaz should actually question those who took those decisions which snatch those brave lives. @AsifIjaz I can feel for you bro, but dont you think your friends and cousins need the best of the things possible so that they can continue serving for nation rather than to die for nation? One should be proud of sacrificing the life for nation but if that can be avoided, it should be. Don't let it go un-necessarily, Thats my whole contention.

@Arsalan @araz Sir, I do not see why there is so much angst against MK. He has his own share of irrationality but his intention for your nation and forces can not be questioned. If he talk about problems, he want the betterment of forces. Why is is portrayed as someone anti-forces?

PS: I know its off topic, but sorry couldn't refrain myself.

 

[niaz]

@MastanKhan

Sir I read your "now deleted" posts and can only have sympathy for you.

I am not sure if you watch bollywood, but there was a movie named "Rang De Basanti" by Amir Khan. In that movie there was a gang of 4 friend and one of them was IAF pilot. That guy got killed in a MIG crash and we all know that whose fault is that we are still flying Migs. The rest of the friends started agitation and revolted against the defence ministry and airforce top brass for the negligence and putting the lives of poor Indian on stake. Later all friends were killed unfortunately.

So shall the IAF fighter be proud? Yes he should.
But shouldn't we make IAF and ministry accountable? yes we should.

The movie was a big hit.

So @MastanKhan I know how you are feeling now. The people like @AsifIjaz should actually question those who took those decisions which snatch those brave lives. @AsifIjaz I can feel for you bro, but dont you think your friends and cousins need the best of the things possible so that they can continue serving for nation rather than to die for nation? One should be proud of sacrificing the life for nation but if that can be avoided, it should be. Don't let it go un-necessarily, Thats my whole contention.

@Arsalan @araz Sir, I do not see why there is so much angst against MK. He has his own share of irrationality but his intention for your nation and forces can not be questioned. If he talk about problems, he want the betterment of forces. Why is is portrayed as someone anti-forces?

PS: I know its off topic, but sorry couldn't refrain myself.

We are not talking about movies but real decisions that affect the national defence. In answer to the question:

Should the opinions of someone; who is not a military professional and thus has neither on hand experience of military matters nor the inside information; count more than those with the military background?

In my humble opinion, it is possible but highly unlikely. We do not know under what constraints & considerations, the Defence Planners at the GHQ are making their decisions. Therefore, even when I disagree, I would not doubt their sanity

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

@Bilal Khan 777 ....

Sir a humble request you use lot of abbreviations & jargons in your post which some is not understandable to most of the readers, therefore If possible plz give a brief description/meaning to those abbreviation or jargon used ...

I will try brother. Often, it is without intention.

 

[Sinnerman108]

So the plumbing will be there and we will just fit in the selected probe. Sounds almost fine. Can live with this.


mmmm boss, the pics says military-Photoshop.blogspot at the bottom

Not sure how authentic this can be taken as.

Looking at this post makes me realize the time i wasted answering you on another thread.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

We are not talking about movies but real decisions that affect the national defence. In answer to the question:

Do the opinions of someone; who is not a military professional and thus has neither on hand experience of military matters nor the inside information; count more than those with the military background?

In my humble opinion, it is possible but highly unlikely. We do not know under what constraints & considerations, the Defence Planners at the GHQ are making their decisions. Therefore, even when I disagree, I would not doubt their sanity

Disagreement is okay, where we can agree to disagree. However, I second your wise thought whole heartedly. When we are asked to make decisions on behalf of the whole country, and sign on behalf of the president, it is not easy. The issues that affect each decision are complex. It is easy to generalise and simplify, and then be called nasty names.

I have made such mistakes here where I shared my disgust about some junior GDP appointments. Boys many decades my junior corrected me, and I stand corrected.

On this forum, messages should be of such caliber that they don't have to voluntarily or forcibly deleted. However, there are many opinions we come across here that are better in analysis and content than our own, without any military experience, and those are always welcome/encouraged/praised

 

[-xXx-]

We are not talking about movies but real decisions that affect the national defence. In answer to the question:

Indeed, perhaps name calling in those lose moments make it feel so.

Should the opinions of someone; who is not a military professional and thus has neither on hand experience of military matters nor the inside information; count more than those with the military background?

Absolutely not more than the one who has expertise but can't be sidelined for the same reason either.

A pilot may not be a good scientist, but he can surely judge the product of a scientist. Can't take anyones tale as gospel truth.

In my humble opinion, it is possible but highly unlikely. We do not know under what constraints & considerations, the Defence Planners at the GHQ are making their decisions. Therefore, even when I disagree, I would not doubt their sanity

By sanity if you mean motive, then I am with you but I refuse to accept that armed forces can not be insane. We have plethora of precedents where we have seen national interest gone for a toss for monetary gains, money and power.

PAF is no different, actually none of the forces in world is. The allegiance armed professional have toward their organization sometimes make them biased and they fail to take cognizance of mistakes they or their org did just to keep the faith of population intact, which I agree is important too.

But we need grudge voices to keep things in balance.

There is nothing like "Absolute Truth", so let peace prevails.

@Bilal Khan 777 Sir, after a long time some real professional has been added to rank on PDF. Good to read your posts.