Intelligence Report: "My Stand is with Pakistan"

[Maarkhoor]

No - that is an assumption and a flawed one. Here's the question for you to ponder - Iran claims no part of Pakistan, so what would these individuals fight the Pakistani State for? The Shia are a minority in Pakistan, and the Shia know this - as someone from a Shia family, I can tell you that NOWHERE has there ever been any kind of discussion about 'taking over Pakistan and implementing Shia Shariah'. Why should the Shia even want that? The law in Pakistan allows the Shia to deal with their affairs per Islamic Shia jurisprudence. The Shia have numerous top level positions in government, the military, bureaucracy, business etc. What do Pakistani Shia have to gain from fighting the Pakistani State? The Pakistani Shia have everything they need to build their lives and prosper in Pakistan. Even with all the noise the Liberandus make about 'Shia genocide', I (being from a Shia family even if I don't identify as a Shia) and many other fellow Shia are the first ones to abuse these Liberandus over their BS. It's stuff like what we've seen recently on this forum, where all Shia are attacked, vile claims are made about their beliefs and practices and their patriotism questioned that really pisses us off.

My dad was a katar Shia, hails from a (still) katar Shia region in Punjab. My mom (Sunni) had to make him back off from some of the more gruesome practices during Muharram (she emotionally blackmailed him using us kids). I have never met a more patriotic Pakistani in my life than my dad. He is the one man responsible for my own patriotic drive and love for Pakistan. Yes, he respected the Ayatollah and respected Iran, but he was a Pakistani first. Don't mistake respect with loyalty. There is no question which side a majority of Shia will fight if it comes to a war between Iran and Pakistan, but questioning Shia beliefs, questioning Shia loyalty is going to do nothing but create friction in Pakistan. How do you think the Indian Muslims feel currently, having their patriotism and loyalty questioned day in and day out?

One thing you have to remember - these conflicts that they are being recruited for (and they are a very small minority of the estimated 20% Shia in Pakistan) are sectarian conflicts that are ongoing. So long as we don't have a sectarian war/conflict in Pakistan, Pakistani Shia will not take up arms domestically, on behalf of ANYONE. If they do take up arms, it will be against the groups targeting them in a sectarian conflict. Pakistani Shia have stayed loyal despite the Shia Hazara being targeted repeatedly, despite the days in which the Laskhar-e-Jhangvi/ SSP were on the rise. Attacks were limited to the members and leaders of the respective groups. Never once did the Shia take up arms against the Pakistani State.

So look at the history of Shia armed movements in Pakistan, who those movements targeted, and rest assured that Pakistani Shia are as loyal and patriotic to Pakistan as anyone else.

One final note to the members that keep asking why the Shia still respect Iran - most Shia simply do not see Iran as a threat to Pakistan. They just don't because most Pakistanis (Shia & Sunni) simply don't see anything in the media about Iran carrying out terrorism in Pakistan (no one outside of people like us on the forum have really dug deep into Yadav and what his links were and how Iran may have facilitated him). Look at the global opinion polls about Iran - anywhere from 50% to 70% of Pakistanis view Iran favorably. Those are not all Shia. So trying to use a favorable view of Iran as a yardstick for patriotism or loyalty is absurd since that would mean that half the population of the country is unpatriotic and disloyal.

I don't need to know your personal stories or relations brother but I am stating you the reality that numbers of Shia going for pilgrimages to Iraq and Iran got training from there and ready to fight U.S and its allies ...Don't forget that we where U.S allies more than once and probably in future too because its suits our interests / economy.

 

[Xestan]

...like I said shia areas have never been drone bombed, bombed by artillery or jets, and whole sale operations carried out against by the military/state. when that happens, then we will see how they(the militias) react. mushi bombed entire villages in fata, we still dont know how many innocents were killed, drone strikes killed countless innocents. what do you think the family members of those killed by the state will do? throw roses at you?

I was talking about LeJ, when were they bombed by US drones or Pakistani artillery in Punjab?

 

[S.Y.A]

I was talking about LeJ, when were they bombed by US drones or Pakistani artillery in Punjab?

yeah, you posted a comparison of sunni vs shia militias. not lej specifically.

 

[Xestan]

yeah, you posted a comparison of sunni vs shia militias. not lej specifically.

Isn't it obvious that LeJ is the Sunni terrorist group which came into being on the basis of sectarianism. TTP and others came into existence for greater agenda, i.e Sharia'ah law.

 

[S.Y.A]

Isn't it obvious that LeJ is the Sunni terrorist group which came into being on the basis of sectarianism. TTP and others came into existence for greater agenda, i.e Sharia'ah law.

plz dont dance around what you yourself said.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Perhaps you don't see me criticizing Iran in the same breath because you choose not to see it due to your prejudice against Shia.

"And I have no love lost for Iran given their statements and actions with respect to Pakistan".

Beyond that, Indian espionage activities through Iran pale in comparison to their activities through Afghanistan. The day the Pakistani State and military openly condemn and paint Iran in the same light as Afghanistan, in terms of State sponsoring of terrorism in Pakistan, that day you'll see me criticize the Iranians the same way that I criticize the Afghans.

Prejudice against Shias? You having a laugh? That is a such a typical, old fashioned, boring labelling that has outlived its shelf life.

We curse house of Saud, GCC and what not what their negative role in Muslim world and Pakistan in particular and we got to hear from you lot is tamed , almost heavy hearted statements against Iran, as if being forced upon when cornered.

The argument was not about Indian activities from Afghanistan, what I am trying to hammer home that Iran has sponsored terrorism in partnership with our mortal enemy India, where as GCC is not involved in blatant terrorism and at this level! As for state, how much state has to tell you lot the actual score? State has laid bear the facts to its citizens to judge for themselves. Maybe state is sensitive to the holy cow status of Iran among the Shias and don't want to upset the indoctrinated lot? State got limitations due to the statecraft, not the citizens who can make sound judgement based on the information available. Those who want to keep their head buried, will become redundant unfortunately.

Wanted to address this specifically - this is no different a statement than that used by right-wing Islamophobes in the West that demand that 'Muslims need to start speaking out and call a spade a spade".

Sorry, but no. It is not the job of Muslims in general to get a certificate and satisfy the demands of the Isalamophobes in 'condemning' Islamic terrorism, and it is not the job of the Pakistani Shia to satisfy YOU and others like you in establishing their patriotism.

Why being so defensive? Muslims in west are aliens, Shias of Pakistan are not, they are sons and daughter of the soils, so why we are in this situation when motherland is hit by terrorism originating from Iranian soil and Shias are silent about it? Worst, its the Shias of Quetta, the Hazara community which got hit massively from this Iran-Indian sponsored terrorism, yet heads are still buried in soil.

Look, if condemnation of Iran comes from Pakistani Shias, it will have lasting effect then if Sunnis try to say the same, as they will be labelled and brushed as "sectarian".

This is a very good idea, and one which I have been thinking about for a long time.

Make one Mufti e Azm for Sunnis like Mufti Taqi Usmani.

Make one Ayatollah of Pakistan, I wouldn't know who that would be.

Centralize and control the propagation of Islam in this country, cull all anti-Pakistan cults, make sectarianism punishments harsh, and promote Pakistani ideology from religious institutions.

We can go so far as reading the Khutbahs in the name of the Pakistani state and every citizen has to give bayah to the state. However for that, Pakistan must begin moves to introduce Fiqh laws and start jirga type religious courts with arbitration powers to concede demands of such religious groups.

Spot on. Why we need a Persian Ayatollah? Why there cant be a Pakistani Ayatollah? All issues related to Shia and Sunnis must be dispatched from within Pakistan by Pakistani, not Persians or Arabs. Religion is what both Iran and GCC use to incite the emotions for their own good. This needs to be rooted out.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

has the army ever bombed the crap out of shia areas in Pakistan on amercian orders? or allowed and supported usa in drone bombing innocent shias?

The terrorist attacks against Pakistan were occurring before the widespread drone campaign or Pak Mil strikes in the tribal areas.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

has the army ever bombed the crap out of shia areas in Pakistan on amercian orders? or allowed and supported usa in drone bombing innocent shias? btw most of these organizations were formed by the army and supported by the army, so you may know the confusion in the early years of the operation. please tell the whole truth when talking about such things, people like you have a habit of twisting facts.


goes to show how little you know. there was covert support by Pakistan to Iran. if you want a public document to support that please read "profiles of intelligence".

also, it was iran under the shah that supported Pakistan, not the one under the current regime. the current one tried to export its revolution, and caused armed uprisings in gilgit(brutally put down by our own army, not caring about who was involved and who wasnt, many innocent shias also paid the price of actions of a few misguided ones) and quetta. when sensible Shia leaders like Allama Talib Jauhri etc were denounced by the revolutionaries.


...like I said shia areas have never been drone bombed, bombed by artillery or jets, and whole sale operations carried out against by the military/state. when that happens, then we will see how they(the militias) react. mushi bombed entire villages in fata, we still dont know how many innocents were killed, drone strikes killed countless innocents. what do you think the family members of those killed by the state will do? throw roses at you?

you are insane

i am sorry but you seem to be justifying TTP attacks on Pakistan

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

why we are in this situation when motherland is hit by terrorism originating from Iranian soil and Shias are silent about it?

Has it been covered in the media that Iran is sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan? Has the GOP & military come out and put Iran in the same category as India and Afghanistan? They have not.

So how do you expect Pakistanis to blame Iran? Take this up with the GOP and military if you think they aren’t telling Pakistanis the ‘truth’. Don’t blame the Shia (and other Pakistanis - 50 to 70% Pakistanis have a favorable opinion of Iran per international polls) for not criticizing Iran. Peoples views are based on the information they have and the official information in the media doesn’t support your claims about Iran.

shia areas have never been drone bombed, bombed by artillery or jets, and whole sale operations carried out against by the military/state. when that happens, then we will see how they(the militias) react.

The Shia haven’t risen up against the State to where the State needs to resort to those methods against them.

Take the example of Parachinar in the former tribal areas where there is a large concentration of Shia - they suffered terribly from TTP and other attacks because they were Shia and opposed the TTP - no one there rose up against the State despite the violence they suffered. Groups like the PTM are not popular there and will never be.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The terrorist attacks against Pakistan were occurring before the widespread drone campaign or Pak Mil strikes in the tribal areas.

some people seem to mix the timeline

i am also aware of some Islamabad residents ( who I assumed are educated and informed)

yet they used the media catch phrases of that time like phosphorus bombs and carpet bombing by Pakistan army during its lal masjid operation

these are the least outrageous claims I promise you
the others I heard are not printable as I feel i loose my mind and self respect even repeating them

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't need to know your personal stories or relations brother but I am stating you the reality that numbers of Shia going for pilgrimages to Iraq and Iran got training from there and ready to fight U.S and its allies ...Don't forget that we where U.S allies more than once and probably in future too because its suits our interests / economy.

Personal stories are important because each personal story is a part of the larger picture. Do you have credible links for how many Shia have been recruited by Iran?

With respect to the US - hundreds of American citizens have traveled abroad to join ISIS (even more from Europe). This a not something unique to Pakistan.

Look, if condemnation of Iran comes from Pakistani Shias, it will have lasting effect then if Sunnis try to say the same, as they will be labelled and brushed as "sectarian".

Condemnation needs to come from the State based on evidence first. Why expect the Shia to take a position that the State & military do not support?

 

[Xestan]

Take the example of Parachinar in the former tribal areas where there is a large concentration of Shia - they suffered terribly from TTP and other attacks because they were Shia and opposed the TTP - no one there rose up against the State despite the violence they suffered. Groups like the PTM are not popular there and will never be.

Just to add in here. A few years back, people of Parachinar protested against military check-posts because a few of their sunni guests for Rabi ul Awal were not allowed to come into the area. At least 60 people including the tribal elders were picked up by the Military and sent to Bannu jail. It took months of negotiations and protests to get them all released. A friend of mine was serving at LoC at that time, and his father was one of the detainees, an elder of the Turi Tribe. He was not able to talk to him for a month and a half.

At the end, when it got too out of control. COAS had to visit the area and apologise. Everyone was released, apology was accepted but nobody raised a slogan against Pakistani state, nobody took up arms.

I do admit they, like a lot of Pashtoons have become sympathetic to PTM's cause but they too have a reason.

Having said that, they remain loyal to Pakistan.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Great post all around.

I think the issue is not Shia Pakistani's patriotism or loyalty, but Iran taking advantage of a network and agents within/without Pakistan to recruit for Liwa Zanabiyoun under the nose of the Pakistani state.

I don't think there is any implicit bias for Shias in members on this forum. The sectarian bigots are pretty obvious and can't hide themselves.

Furthermore it is quite irksome to see posters of Qasem Sulemani in Pakistan being posted by some groups and some rallies in support of him, when he was an avowed enemy of Pakistan, ally of India, and supporter of terror proxies/Indian spies against Pakistan.

No Pakistani should idolize this vile man.

strange that our shia Pakistanis didnt join the discussion i feel bad that we are judging them and giving verdict about their loyalty based on our paranoia or half baked or malicious disinformation that is used to cause violence in Pakistan

 

[Maarkhoor]

With respect to the US - hundreds of American citizens have traveled abroad to join ISIS (even more from Europe). This a not something unique to Pakistan.

And what U.S and other countries did when these scums return back?

We should do the same...

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Has it been covered in the media that Iran is sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan?

Unless you been living under the rock all these years! And then a small matter of Uzair Baluch Iranian citizenship and how they tried their level best to protect him when he was to be brought back to Pakistan.

No need to pretend, it's all in public knowledge. And when you see some shias going in streets in Pakistan with Solamani posters , while all that happened between Iran and India against Pakistan was under his watchful eyes, most Patriots will bang their head against the wall. Is sectarian allegiance so deep that motherland do not matter? Questions will be raised weather one like it or not.

Condemnation needs to come from the State based on evidence first. Why expect the Shia to take a position that the State & military do not support?

Military has said that the network was operating from Iranian soil. Chahbahar is not a place on Mars! What else you need? Why do you think state revealed the nexus right bang in the middle of Rouhani visit to Pakistan? Have you got short memory? State is telling us, giving the signals so people like those raising solamani posters on streets of Pakistan do not go mental and start causing mayhem within. Besides, we are not living in North Korea or Iran where we cant Express our views openly. You are not a robot, you got plenty of facts infront of you.