Featured Inside Pervez Hoodbhoy’s Classroom

[nascar 42]

The post is a bit dated. Dr Hoodhboy's contract has been cancelled at FC. The study circles are no longer held.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I always find it amusing that people lose their minds over Hoodboy, who probably has done little to no damage to Pakistan's so called "Islamic values", but will probably not give a single thought to the mullahs which have actually destroyed Pakistani society.

My personal issue with Hoodbhoy and other Pakistani liberals/leftists is that their flawed approach is damaging the chances of the rest of us, who aren't as confrontational, to influence change.

Then again, maybe this is how we deal with them - invite them on the media to debate other qualified individuals and make a fool out of themselves and make themselves even more irrelevant for the vast majority of Pakistanis and eventually fade away.

 

[ps3linux]

Moving the discussion along, given all the numerous missteps along the way as you have mentioned, what is now important is the direction the country takes going forward. With PMIK and the military currently on the same page, a coherent government strategy to hold back extremists of both sides can do wonders, if one were to be implemented.

Sir jee I keep referring to a thread I created long time ago by the name of something like "The Nine Unknown", somehow, someway beyond my comprehension chips are falling in place. We are not out of economic shi*thole, nor have we got some visionary leadership, but on the domestic front and international front we are in a much better position. A certain religious party with its junior terrorists has held public colleges universities hostage with its truly terrorist wings, and morality squads. Once people get out of their educational lives and into practical lives they develop utter hatred for that party. What TTP and same people did in Swat/Waziristan as a nation we have become sick of their ideology (saudi sponsored of course), the other mullah with his alleged gay orgies (alleged) during dharna in Islamabad too has lost face. There was another one the wheelchair warrior his software is now completely updated to the latest version.

Why these di*ks are resisting GoP decision for a syllabus for madrissahs is an eye opener. In their moots they give fatwas against other sects and yet when it comes to matter like this they are all united, but state is pushing for reforms and best thing that ever happened to Pakistan was FATF grey listing, thanks to India and Saudia. It has given us the template to fix things, deep state has to do it, they know it.

For people like Hoodbhai, I.A Rehman and ilk I don't disagree with the assertion of less extremist approach to matters of state, but their anti-pakistan stance (Read Anti Army) has won them no popularity among masses.

I however, agree with @AgNoStiC MuSliM that deep state now needs to realize that they need to start cultivating opinion leader, creating their own opinion leaders out of "uniform only patriots". ISPR is definitely doing pretty good but more civilians are required if we have to come at par with the western world, we need to stop thinking petty "India Centric" policies.

We need to look into the potential problems that we will have to deal with in our south west and beyond.

 

[Dalit]

Yahoodbhoy is an avid Pakistan and Islam hater. He would be a good substitute for Modi in Hindustan.

 

[VCheng]

Sir jee I keep referring to a thread I created long time ago by the name of something like "The Nine Unknown", somehow, someway beyond my comprehension chips are falling in place. We are not out of economic shi*thole, nor have we got some visionary leadership, but on the domestic front and international front we are in a much better position. A certain religious party with its junior terrorists has held public colleges universities hostage with its truly terrorist wings, and morality squads. Once people get out of their educational lives and into practical lives they develop utter hatred for that party. What TTP and same people did in Swat/Waziristan as a nation we have become sick of their ideology (saudi sponsored of course), the other mullah with his alleged gay orgies (alleged) during dharna in Islamabad too has lost face. There was another one the wheelchair warrior his software is now completely updated to the latest version.

Why these di*ks are resisting GoP decision for a syllabus for madrissahs is an eye opener. In their moots they give fatwas against other sects and yet when it comes to matter like this they are all united, but state is pushing for reforms and best thing that ever happened to Pakistan was FATF grey listing, thanks to India and Saudia. It has given us the template to fix things, deep state has to do it, they know it.

For people like Hoodbhai, I.A Rehman and ilk I don't disagree with the assertion of less extremist approach to matters of state, but their anti-pakistan stance (Read Anti Army) has won them no popularity among masses.

I however, agree with @AgNoStiC MuSliM that deep state now needs to realize that they need to start cultivating opinion leader, creating their own opinion leaders out of "uniform only patriots". ISPR is definitely doing pretty good but more civilians are required if we have to come at par with the western world, we need to stop thinking petty "India Centric" policies.

We need to look into the potential problems that we will have to deal with in our south west and beyond.

One of the issues that can be seen is that the right wing extremists are far more valuable to the military than the radical left, with their far greater numbers and influence. Cultivating opinion leaders from the left poses the basic question of whether the military is willing to tolerate any suggestions of keeping within its Constitutional mandates, which are raised inevitably by the left, and never by the right. Hence we have the situation that we have, and one that is likely to continue in a ratcheting stepwise spiral downwards until a major destabilizing event causes sudden changes beyond the system's capability to cope.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

One of the issues that can be seen is that the right wing extremists are far more valuable to the military than the radical left, with their far greater numbers and influence. Cultivating opinion leaders from the left poses the basic question of whether the military is willing to tolerate any suggestions of keeping within its Constitutional mandates, which are raised inevitably by the left, and never by the right. Hence we have the situation that we have, and one that is likely to continue in a ratcheting stepwise spiral downwards until a major destabilizing event causes sudden changes beyond the system's capability to cope.

The Deep State wants the most bang for its buck, so cultivating the right wing makes sense from a strictly ‘return on investment’ standpoint, both in terms of numbers and street power.

What I’m suggesting is that the Deep State’s cost benefit calculus needs to be broadened. Pakistan’s liberals may not offer the same kind of street power or numbers as the right wing, but they have their own influence in certain areas that, if leveraged properly, can help push a nationalist and pro-Pakistan narrative abroad and potentially help influence policy makers in the West. That is something that the right wing cannot deliver as effectively.

Pakistan’s liberals, as I mentioned earlier, can benefit in the long run from such engagement and cooperation, but since they’re off screeching and wailing and making enemies left and right in Pakistan (pun intended), the State needs to take the initiative here and find people to work with.

 

[VCheng]

The Deep State wants the most bang for its buck, so cultivating the right wing makes sense from a strictly ‘return on investment’ standpoint, both in terms of numbers and street power.

What I’m suggesting is that the Deep State’s cost benefit calculus needs to be broadened. Pakistan’s liberals may not offer the same kind of street power or numbers as the right wing, but they have their own influence in certain areas that, if leveraged properly, can help push a nationalist and pro-Pakistan narrative abroad and potentially help influence policy makers in the West. That is something that the right wing cannot deliver as effectively.

I am intrigued by your point above. What areas do you see the left being potentially more useful than the tried-and-true right wing extremism? Are you suggesting that the left wingers may be more useful abroad while the right wingers continue their roles domestically? That policy was useful in the decades past, but will not work any more given the new geopolitical climate.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am intrigued by your point above. What areas do you see the left being potentially more useful than the tried-and-true right wing extremism? Are you suggesting that the left wingers may be more useful abroad while the right wingers continue their poles domestically? That policy was useful in the decades past, but will not work any more given the new geopolitical climate.

I’m not proposing such stark stratification. The left wing needs to be given assurances and shown tangible progress domestically, even if incremental.

This is important both in terms of the credibility of such a hypothetical ‘Nationalist Pakistani left’ abroad as well as the fact that the prevalence of different forms of communication and media would quickly expose a left (Domestically, where they have to build support as well) that was cooperating with the Deep State and making significant compromises on core values.

What’s needed is a degree of give and take and incremental change that will allow the left to credibly make the argument in support of progress in Pakistan and not get laughed out of the room. Additionally, let them criticize, without targeting specific institutions, policies where there is likely to be little to no change, such as Ahmadis or other forms or other forms of persecution and repression.

 

[RAMPAGE]

That is good advice indeed. It is high time for everyone to recognize conservative nature of the constitution, society and the military, and the consequences thereof. Change, if it ever comes, as you rightly point out, must come slowly in order to be accepted by society.

The slow change will come if liberals stick to their arguments. We don't need to make shameful alliances with the military and capitulate to the bigoted ideas in our constitution. Let liberal ideals be discussed on unregulated electronic media and watch as conservatism disappears from the country in less than half a century.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of liberal ideals is their free discussion. They will be "naturally selected" from alternative ideas for their sheer rationally demonstrable utility. Conservatism and tribalism survive because of either a genuine or a contrived threat to an identity group. Since there are few genuine threats in our world, and those that remain are fleeting, conservatism and tribalism survive mostly due to an artificial perception of threat promoted by power structures within groups. In Pakistan's case, this false threat perception will slowly subside as a result of free discussion on unregulated communication platforms.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The slow change will come if liberals stick to their arguments.

'Stick to their arguments' like what?

Supporting religious bigots like Mullah Fazlullah in overthrowing a democratically elected government they don't like?

Supporting a corrupt political party like the PPP because the party's boy king makes the right noises with little to no intent or ability to deliver on either governance or progressive reform?

Supporting racists in the PTM?

Supporting traitors like Mama Qadeer who have explicitly called for violence and asked India for assistance to conduct terrorism in Pakistan?

Disparaging and abusing Pakistan's policies on Kashmir?

Their hypocrisy in criticizing the Army for, first, NOT conducting operations in FATA and then piling on the Army FOR conducting operations in FATA?

Pakistan's liberal landscape is, at the moment, completely deserving of all the labels of 'landay kay liberals, liberandus etc'.

What they need to do is to focus on lobbying and campaigning for domestic reform without slandering Pakistani institutions and Pakistan's national interests and refrain from all of the aforementioned idiocy they engage in.

 

[RAMPAGE]

'Stick to their arguments' like what?

Supporting religious bigots like Mullah Fazlullah in overthrowing a democratically elected government they don't like?

Supporting a corrupt political party like the PPP because the party's boy king makes the right noises with little to no intent or ability to deliver on either governance or progressive reform?

Supporting racists in the PTM?

Supporting traitors like Mama Qadeer who have explicitly called for violence and asked India for assistance to conduct terrorism in Pakistan?

Disparaging and abusing Pakistan's policies on Kashmir?

Their hypocrisy in criticizing the Army for, first, NOT conducting operations in FATA and then piling on the Army FOR conducting operations in FATA?

Pakistan's liberal landscape is, at the moment, completely deserving of all the labels of 'landay kay liberals, liberandus etc'.

What they need to do is to focus on lobbying and campaigning for domestic reform without slandering Pakistani institutions and Pakistan's national interests and refrain from all of the aforementioned idiocy they engage in.

No, that's just small fish.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No, that's just small fish.

What's small fish, the individuals that engage in such rhetoric, the rhetoric itself or both?

 

[RAMPAGE]

What's small fish, the individuals that engage in such rhetoric, the rhetoric itself or both?

We'll let you guess since you are so clever.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

We'll let you guess since you are so clever.

I never made any such claim, so please help clarify for a poor, slow sod like myself.

 

[RAMPAGE]

I never made any such claim, so please help clarify for a poor, slow sod like myself.

It takes a certain species of genius, found exclusively hereabouts, to make the accusations you listed. I was merely referring to that.