Information Pool & Analysis on Pakistan's AF Aspiration for Su-35 / Su-35S - FLANKER-E

[Super Falcon]

Deals will be signed on October 15 when Putin visits India.

Hahah very very funny than in Oct you say deal will sign when modi visits Moscow if it can't sign now than never

Modi can sign it today as his plan never lands in India he is out of india most of time to spread hatred for pakistan why not he visit Moscow tomor

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

 

[CBU-105]

not going to happen for a variety of reasons but basically Pakistan does not have enough money to lure a long time strategic weapons supplier away from India.

and the F-16, even in block 700 nuclear gundam configuration, will never enter service in any Indian armed forces wing.

 

[IceCold]

Buddy you are wrong on few counts..let me try to share my thoughts...


You are comparing Apples and Oranges...India-China relations cannot be compared with India-Pakistan....Secondly Pakistan can never match Indian appetite nor we can challenge China's appetite...so you see the difference? Russia being our strategic partner cannot sell weapons that are going to directly threaten us...If they do then they simply cannot be our strategic partner....now if I have to chose between a market as huge as India vs a market offered by Pakistan then i will certainly chose India 10 out of 10 times...not sure how you see it...Mind it i am not even bringing in decades old relations with Russians..

Market is offered not by Pakistan alone but Pakistan and China combine which will out pace whatever advantage India has. Remember in the end Russians care about cold hard cash. Now India can outpace Pakistan but cannot do so if we factor in China and Pakistan combine. Do note that despite strong Indian objection Russia agreed to sell RD-93 to Pakistan. Now the discussion is about getting them directly and also perhaps an in house facility. Russia also sold the MI-17 and MI-35 are on the discussion card. Besides even if Russia does not sell Pakistan directly it can simply remove objections on Chinese derivatives of the flanker series.

Regarding India's interest in western toys that keep in mind none of that is threatening Russia..which is not the case with Pakistan acquiring top notch Russian weapons...Also right now Russian loosing a part of the pie...not sure if it makes sense to loose the entire share of the pie because a part has been given to someone else....


Wrong...there is nothing to wait in that front...Russian plane has already lost that bid way back in 2008...so irrespective of where we go Russians will gain nothing by waiting on this...Let me ask you this in a different fashion...how many planes you think PAF will order? Let's have a ball park figure...and then let's compare that with what Russians risk loosing....

Yes those weapons dont threaten Russia per say but they do threaten Russian business which is in its defense industry. Yes Russians lost in 2008 but even than they did not took it lightly and Russian annoyance was conveyed on more than one occasion. Opening up to Pakistan is one of them.

How may Squadrons you think PAF will be facing should hostilities break out? Do you think we are going to keep more on Eastern front where there is a risk of Chinese aggression vs on west where hostilities are already on??

Does not matter what i think, what matters what is the Indian squadron strength? Does India not complain about having lower squadron strength than needed? No matter where the hostility breaks India will be inclined to keep assets on Chinese border. Remember two front war which is often sold in India?

 

[MilSpec]

But if you compare current situation with just ( F7pgs + F-16 + JF-17) vs (Su-30 MKI + Rafales + Su 27s + Mig 29s + Mig 25s ) with near future conditions with ( F7pgs + F-16 + JF-17 + SU 35 / EFT ) vs (Su-30 MKI + Rafales + Su 27s + Mig 29s + Mig 25s )...so being everything equal ...SU 35 / EFT will make a big difference to equation.

From your post you don't have a clue about what you are taking about.

Are all 17 squadrons facing Pakistan? If your answer is yes, than it poses a big threat. But even if they are not all facing Pakistan, they still pose a considerable threat combine with other platforms available to India. On the other hand all Pakistani squadrons are facing India and add 2 more squadrons of a formidable plane such as SU-35, it will pose a serious challenge to IAF.

ok

Technically 13.5 that are operationally available per the CAG report.

Well discount the same for Su35 when you do buy them ...

 

[deckingraj]

Market is offered not by Pakistan alone but Pakistan and China combine which will out pace whatever advantage India has.

Is Chinese market not already available? Last i checked there is no such condition by China that deal with Pak or loose us...Please think this from Russian perspective...What are they gaining here??

Remember in the end Russians care about cold hard cash. Now India can outpace Pakistan but cannot do so if we factor in China and Pakistan combine. Do note that despite strong Indian objection Russia agreed to sell RD-93 to Pakistan. Now the discussion is about getting them directly and also perhaps an in house facility. Russia also sold the MI-17 and MI-35 are on the discussion card.

Russia did stopped RD-93 sale at the behest of India...what you are referring to is the approval later..Now let's put things in right perspective...Russia was then/now delivering us MKI's and RD-93 was for JF-17 and that too via China....however here we are talking about their top notch weapons....I hope you see the difference...

Besides even if Russia does not sell Pakistan directly it can simply remove objections on Chinese derivatives of the flanker series.

Well you can hope for it...however i don't see any russian top notch weapon in Pakistan directly/indirectly unless and until Russian have made up their mind that relations with New Delhi are no longer required...

Yes those weapons dont threaten Russia per say but they do threaten Russian business which is in its defense industry. Yes Russians lost in 2008 but even than they did not took it lightly and Russian annoyance was conveyed on more than one occasion. Opening up to Pakistan is one of them.

and Solution to that would be loose even more Market share?? Do you think this is logical? I will repeat unless and until you can provide a bigger/comparable market than India this is not happening...India is not only a bigger market which is projected to be even bigger but a time tested friend.Pakistan is miniature in both areas......I am sorry but i just can't grasp the logic here...

Does not matter what i think, what matters what is the Indian squadron strength? Does India not complain about having lower squadron strength than needed? No matter where the hostility breaks India will be inclined to keep assets on Chinese border. Remember two front war which is often sold in India?

Nah...two front war is our worst scenario...we need to prepare for it...no doubt about it...however if there is single front how logical it is for us keep our assets relaxing in hangar when enemy is hitting us with all she got?? Also check the operational radius of MKI's and then please rethink on this...

 

[SQ8]

Well discount the same for Su35 when you do buy them ...

I would do the same for the J-11(possibly worse). But the Su-35 isnt coming despite the tingling grapevine here.

 

[war&peace]

From your post you don't have a clue about what you are taking.

Thank you

 

[aamirzs]

 

[The Eagle]

Even many of Pakistanis still believed, expressed and acknowledged the fact that this is not happening or till any official confirmation but still the dedication especially from our neighboring friends, is remarkable.

For what it is worth I dont see PAF moving till the Rafale deal is signed sealed and delivered IF AT ALL. Personally I somehow dont see it happening. But then I am just an arm chair general like you all.
A

Bro, I just don't want to break many innocent hearts here though being very selective with the words while making a ground to avoid any shock for many.

Indeed, until & unless there is a dire need and delivery date set in neighboring country as a proof of such kind of threat, then as threat assessment we will hear official lipsing as well as the body language of PAF to address the situation so till then, we will be moving as per plan already set before. It is just been a while and we have a breathing room, after all that suffocating tenure of Mr.10%, that we need to play smart and cannot go for wild shopping as many expecting PAF to do so and fall for it.

Just my opinion..... And wait... I have to check my rank Sir.....

@Zarvan bhai knows well this too but his love and devotion for Pak Military is without any doubt so he wants every top rated toy for Pakistan and wishes for the same too.

 

[Pathan khan]

Why Pakistan ministry of defence is reluctant to give any information about defence deals?
India, turkey , iran they all countries proudly announce their acquasitions, acheivments and indegenous productions while we Pakistani,s keep it secret. Even our defence production companies websites are not up to date.

 

[deckingraj]

Even many of Pakistanis still believed, expressed and acknowledged the fact that this is not happening or till any official confirmation but still the dedication especially from our neighboring friends, is remarkable..

What else do you expect the neighbors to do?? Ignore the thread?? Last i checked this was a defense forum to discuss, no??

 

[mourning sage]

Why Pakistan ministry of defence is reluctant to give any information about defence deals?
India, turkey , iran they all countries proudly announce their acquasitions, acheivments and indegenous productions while we Pakistani,s keep it secret. Even our defence production companies websites are not up to date.

Because all these countries have a significant lobbying clout and influence in world politics. Our foreign policy is non-existent. Don't want to announce unless the deal is done

 

[MilSpec]

Technically 13.5 that are operationally available per the CAG report.

Is there any evaluations of availability rates for PAF platforms by any internal auditing agency?

 

[IceCold]

Is Chinese market not already available? Last i checked there is no such condition by China that deal with Pak or loose us...Please think this from Russian perspective...What are they gaining here??

I know Indians accuse us of bringing CPEC into everything but the reality is with CPEC, things have changed quite a bit with how China perceive things and how it will use its influence where she can. Take NSG for example, India wasnt expecting such a hardcore stance from China but never the less it got one. But thats off topic.

Russia did stopped RD-93 sale at the behest of India...what you are referring to is the approval later..Now let's put things in right perspective...Russia was then/now delivering us MKI's and RD-93 was for JF-17 and that too via China....however here we are talking about their top notch weapons....I hope you see the difference...

Yes it did but only to resume it latter once Chinese intervened. Today China have all the more reason to intervene. Again because of protecting the economic corridor.

Well you can hope for it...however i don't see any russian top notch weapon in Pakistan directly/indirectly unless and until Russian have made up their mind that relations with New Delhi are no longer required...

I disagree here the reason why because international relations dont work like that. India is in no position to tell Russia either you are with us or against us. Bulk of Indian hardware is Russian and you still need parts and spares for them. Besides when you say above that think from Russian perspective, why do you not apply the same in case India is buying from the west and Russia is gradually losing its share of the pie? Its only logical for Russia to look elsewhere. No?

and Solution to that would be loose even more Market share?? Do you think this is logical? I will repeat unless and until you can provide a bigger/comparable market than India this is not happening...India is not only a bigger market which is projected to be even bigger but a time tested friend.Pakistan is miniature in both areas......I am sorry but i just can't grasp the logic here...

Market is already slipping away and Russians are not to happy about it. With India's tilt towards the west it is only logical for Russia to start looking elsewhere. Also Russia isnt just an arms exporting country it has its strategic interests as well and one of them is to not let US get a foot hold in this part of the world. New blocks are forming and with them new alliances. Thats the reality my friend. Imagine Turkey and Russia getting along just fine after Turkey downed their jet. Russia was the country that supplied information before hand about a possible coupe.

Nah...two front war is our worst scenario...we need to prepare for it...no doubt about it...however if there is single front how logical it is for us keep our assets relaxing in hangar when enemy is hitting us with all she got?? Also check the operational radius of MKI's and then please rethink on this...

You my friend need to read this:
http://www.firstpost.com/world/chin...i-foments-trouble-in-balochistan-2980404.html

Possibility of a two front war isnt the worst case scenario, it is the only scenario and India knows this.