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Indonesia Leaders : We Stand With The People of Palestine

btw you didn't answer my question from last night, are you Jewish, Muslim or an atheist?


Who I am is not much important, but how I argue is much more important :enjoy:

Btw, the video you brought is showing the view of PRO ISRAEL.

Again, I am here arguing not as PRO ISRAEL, but as NEUTRAL guy :)
They don't argue on the basis of humanity mind you but because of bad optics. Which kinda tells you about the mindset of the average pro-israels that they spends more time complaining that dead palestinians makes them look bad instead of the act of killing themselves.

I am seeing more through Humanity optics; you are here seeing through Hamas' optic.

Pro Israel => Palestine land only belong to Jews, because Jews are native, and Arab is not, it is not Jews that get rid arab PAlestine from the land, but it was Arab (Caliphate) that got rid Jews from Palestine 1400 years ago continued by Ottoman. Israel is always right.

Pro Humanity => both Arab Palestine and Jews Palestine entitled to establish sovereign government on Palestine land, according to equal human right. Both Israel and Palestine/Hamas has violated.

Pro Hamas => Palestine land only belong to Arab Palestine, because arab Palestine are native while Jews is just immigrant/aggresor. It was Jews that got rid Arab Palestine from the land, Israel has to go to sea. Palestine/Hamas did not violate humanity, only Israel does.
 
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If israel didnt have nukes the arabs would have pushed them into the sea by now
 
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the problem cant be resolved by any human government if israel & hamas/palestinians were mutually exclusive.
i dont know about if the 2-state solution will bring real peace in ME...
divine intervention is needed to solve the problem...

as the bible predicts a king will reign from jerusalem with justice & peace to the whole world

but just be sure any attempt to rid israel out of palestine would never materialize.
 
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Your mindset is already consumed with Hamas propaganda. Your statements is not based on reality/fact anymore.
what Hamas propaganda? Its the Zionists who control the world media not Hamas.
LOL. Why twisting my statement just like you twisting fact? :laugh:
Please stop twisting my statement :)

Read again all my post. I said: it is up to the habitant of the Palestine region, which was: Arab Palestine and Jews Palestine, that was according to UN Charter, thats why UN came with Partition Plan.

Which part is difficult for you to discern? But you keep pushing that it had to be up to Arab Palestine ignoring Jews Palestine right.
lol so you are now on the right track finally, so do you also agree that the land doesn't belong to the Zionists?
 
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What do you mean those are not key word? Can't you read those key word on the paragraph? or it is your habit again ignoring word that doesnt fit you? :D

Yes I am neutral, thats why I said: both parties are NOT innocent, Israel commit wrong things too. But you are heavily pro Hamas pushing Hamas propaganda as fact, that what I am arguing now.
Those might be keywords for You, to me these are the keywords of that statement. "Occupied Palestinian territory, destruction, harassments, provocation, against civilians, children, extremist Israeli settlers and acts of terror.
I said depends. I repeat again my statements:

if viewed from historical base it belong to Jews as native.

If viewed from UN Charter, it belonged to the people living there (Arab Palestine and Jews Palestine).
That is not logical, what about the people who lived there before the Jews huh? and i have repeated so many times that Zionists are Europeans and not even the real Jews.
Who I am is not much important, but how I argue is much more important :enjoy:

Btw, the video you brought is showing the view of PRO ISRAEL.

Again, I am here arguing not as PRO ISRAEL, but as NEUTRAL guy :)
It is important who you are, If i pretend to be a Jew online and speak against Zionism then that would be unfair. That is why you need to tell us who you are.
 
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How Most Aid to the Palestinians Ends up in Israel’s Coffers
BY JONATHAN COOK


Diplomats may have a reputation for greyness, obfuscation, even hypocrisy, but few have found themselves compared to a serial killer, let alone one who devours human flesh.

That honour befell Laars Faaborg-Andersen, the European Union’s ambassador to Israel, last week when Jewish settlers launched a social media campaign casting him as Hannibal Lecter, the terrifying character from the film Silence of the Lambs.

An image of the Danish diplomat wearing Lecter’s prison face-mask was supposed to suggest that Europe needs similar muzzling.

The settlers’ grievance relates to European aid, which has provided temporary shelter to Palestinian Bedouin families after the Israeli army demolished their homes in the occupied territories near Jerusalem. The emergency housing has helped them remain on land coveted by Israel and the settlers.

European officials, outraged by the Lecter comparison, have reminded Tel Aviv that, were it to abide by international law, Israel – not the EU – would be taking responsibility for these families’ welfare.

While Europe may think of itself as part of an enlightened West, using aid to defend Palestinians’ rights, the reality is less reassuring. The aid may actually be making things significantly worse.

Shir Hever, an Israeli economist who has spent years piecing together the murky economics of the occupation, recently published a report that makes shocking reading.

Like others, he believes international aid has allowed Israel to avoid footing the bill for its decades-old occuption. But he goes further.

His astonishing conclusion – one that may surprise Israel’s settlers – is that at least 78 per cent of humanitarian aid intended for Palestinians ends up in Israel’s coffers.

The sums involved are huge. The Palestinians under occupation are among the most aid-dependent in the world, receiving more than $2bn from the international community a year. According to Hever, donors could be directly subsidising up to a third of the occupation’s costs.

Other forms of Israeli profiteering have been identified in previous studies.

In 2013 the World Bank very conservatively estimated that the Palestinians lose at least $3.4bn a year in resources plundered by Israel.

Further, Israel’s refusal to make peace with the Palestinians, and as a consequence the rest of the region, is used to justify Washington’s annual $3bn in military aid.

Israel also uses the occupied territories as laboratories for testing weapons and surveillance systems on Palestinians – and then exports its expertise. Israel’s military and cyber industries are hugely profitable, generating many billions of dollars of income each year.

A survey published last week found tiny Israel to be the eighth most powerful country in the world.

But whereas these income streams are a recognisable, if troubling, windfall from Israel’s occupation, western humanitarian aid to the Palestinians is clearly intended for the victims, not the victors.

So how is Israel creaming off so much?

The problem, says Hever, is Israel’s self-imposed role as mediator. To reach the Palestinians, donors have no choice but to go through Israel. This provides ripe opportunities for what he terms “aid subversion” and “aid diversion”.

The first results from the Palestinians being a captive market. They have access to few goods and services that are not Israeli.

Who Profits?, an Israeli organisation monitoring the economic benefits for Israel in the occupation, assesses that dairy firm Tnuva enjoys a monopoly in the West Bank worth $60 million annually.

Aid diversion, meanwhile, occurs because Israel controls all movement of people and goods. Israeli restrictions mean it gets to charge for transportation and storage, and levy “security” fees.

Other studies have identified additional profits from “aid destruction”. When Israel wrecks foreign-funded aid projects, Palestinians lose – but Israel often benefits.

Cement-maker Nesher, for example, is reported to control 85 per cent of all construction by Israelis and Palestinians, including the supplies for rebuilding efforts in Gaza after Israel’s repeated rampages.

Significant segments of Israeli society, aside from those in the security industries, are lining their pockets from the occupation. Paradoxically, the label “the most aid-dependent people in the world” – usually affixed to the Palestinians – might be better used to describe Israelis.

What can be done? International law expert Richard Falk notes that Israel is exploiting an aid oversight vacuum: there are no requirements on donors to ensure their money reaches the intended recipients.

What the international community has done over the past 20 years of the Oslo process – inadvertently or otherwise – is offer Israel financial incentives to stabilise and entrench its rule over the Palestinians. It can do so relatively cost-free.

While Europe and Washington have tried to beat Israel with a small diplomatic stick to release its hold on the occupied territories, at the same time they dangle juicy financial carrots to encourage Israel to tighten its grip.

There is a small ray of hope. Western aid policy does not have to be self-sabotaging. Hever’s study indicates that Israel has grown as reliant on Palestinian aid as the Palestinians themselves.

The EU noted last week that Israel not Brussels should be caring for the Bedouin it has left homeless. Europe could take its own advice to heart and start shifting the true costs of the occupation back on to Israel.

That may happen soon enough whatever the west decides, if – as even Israel is predicting will occur soon – the Palestinian Authority of Mahmoud Abbas collapses.
@antonius123
 
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Pro Hamas => Palestine land only belong to Arab Palestine, because arab Palestine are native while Jews is just immigrant/aggresor. It was Jews that got rid Arab Palestine from the land, Israel has to go to sea. Palestine/Hamas did not violate humanity, only Israel does.

Hamas is the most moral army of the world. Only army in the whole world that never commit one crime of rape against enemy civilians or combatants. Palestinian land belongs to Palestinians, and not wealthy people who have dual-citizenship to wealthy, developed nations, and have properties and businesses and family in them.

Palestine is also the holy land and land the Prophet's walked on. It cannot continue to be ruled by immoral and anti-God government. It must be ruled by Hamas. No one will abuse Israeli's. The most moral army in the world won't allow itself to abuse people. If international community will trigger major strife over the liberation of Palestine, choosing several million Jews over God, than they must prepare for ensuing misery and permanent extermination by someone that isn't a human.
 
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what Hamas propaganda? Its the Zionists who control the world media not Hamas.

Zionist control world media (debatable) doesnt mean Hamas doesn't do propaganda.
I bring you historical evidence that you can check yourself, not media narration or political jargon; you bring so.

lol so you are now on the right track finally, so do you also agree that the land doesn't belong to the Zionists?

I will answer based on law and humanity,

Based on Law (UN Resolutions and Accords), and humanity (right of the existing population of the land): "Land of Israel (majority of Palestine) belong to Israel, land of Gaza belong to Palestine State"
 
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Those might be keywords for You, to me these are the keywords of that statement. "Occupied Palestinian territory, destruction, harassments, provocation, against civilians, children, extremist Israeli settlers and acts of terror.

As I said: I dont deny any violance/crime done by Israel side (government and settlers/residents). Do you want to deny that Palestine/Hamas side did violence, destruction, harassment, provocation and incitement?

Israel settlers is civilian, so it was civilian against civilian, while Hamas is "organization" so it is governmental organization commit crime against civilians. I didn't say Israel troops/government did not commit so, but both side did the same, and Hamas is worse, because for Hamas these kind of war against civilian, human shield, and dissinformation is the way they fight.

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That is not logical, what about the people who lived there before the Jews huh? and i have repeated so many times that Zionists are Europeans and not even the real Jews.

Why not logical? you want to say that Human Right is Illogical?

Before the Jews? when? Before zionism is a long history,
Before 700 AD the populations was almost entirely Jews.
Between 700 AD to 1948, the populations was mixed between Jews and Arabs.

If we talk from Humanity and UN perspective, what we should talk is "NOW", human right of current population, not human right of past people who doesn't exist anymore.

Askhenaz Jews was Khazar (not real Jews) is myth that has been debunked long time ago. DNA test has proven that Askhenaz Jews DNA identical with middle east Jews. Arab like to use dissinformation/hoax (Askhenas jews are Khazars, Palestinian ppl are descendant from Philistine, Israel was moslem, etc).
Read it well (not selective reading):

It is important who you are, If i pretend to be a Jew online and speak against Zionism then that would be unfair. That is why you need to tell us who you are.

I am none of them.
 
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Are you seriously implying that's the only restriction Palestinians face?

Nope.

What do you expect me to say?
This could happen. They are in war, sabotaging could be conducted by 2 sides 2 ways.
Hamas is the most moral army of the world. Only army in the whole world that never commit one crime of rape against enemy civilians or combatants. Palestinian land belongs to Palestinians, and not wealthy people who have dual-citizenship to wealthy, developed nations, and have properties and businesses and family in them.

Palestine is also the holy land and land the Prophet's walked on. It cannot continue to be ruled by immoral and anti-God government. It must be ruled by Hamas. No one will abuse Israeli's. The most moral army in the world won't allow itself to abuse people. If international community will trigger major strife over the liberation of Palestine, choosing several million Jews over God, than they must prepare for ensuing misery and permanent extermination by someone that isn't a human.


Using human shield, terrorizing their own people, and attacking civilian is the most moral army?

 
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This is hypocrite to the core.

I support 2 states solution proposed by UN, as it is based on Humanity and equal human right for independence (UN Charter), and recognize some Israel wrongdoing.

Meanwhile you guys support idea of "getting rid Israel from middle east", and pushing that Palestine region only belong to Arab Palestine, ignoring that Jews also has human right to live and establish country there, ignoring wrongdoing from Palestine side, justifying Hamas' attacking on civilian/using human shield/playing dissinformation etc, but claiming you are defending HUMANITY? LOL. Don't you understand these all are AGAINST humanity? tsk tsk tsk.... :disagree:

@Respect4Respect01 @tower9 @Song Hong @UKBengali @Globenim @Whizzack @Viet @kuge @Indos @nufix @Lego Jangkar

I don't think this New Jersian gets the memo about the 2 state solutions
 
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As I said: I dont deny any violance/crime done by Israel side (government and settlers/residents). Do you want to deny that Palestine/Hamas side did violence, destruction, harassment, provocation and incitement?

yes i deny that, you people always like to start the story from the middle and then show the climax. That is not how real life works, you need to check your facts it was Israeli army that attacked the worshippers at Al Aqsa during the last week of Ramadan. You people don't discuss what happened during Ramadan but you have the audacity to blame Hamas for resisting?

You also need to realize that Netanyahus government was in trouble so he wanted easy way out, and what's better than beating a weak enemy to a pulp to become a hero.

Israel settlers is civilian, so it was civilian against civilian, while Hamas is "organization" so it is governmental organization commit crime against civilians. I didn't say Israel troops/government did not commit so, but both side did the same, and Hamas is worse, because for Hamas these kind of war against civilian, human shield, and dissinformation is the way they fight.

that is not just illogical but senseless comment from you, Its Israeli ARMY with their tanks and jets that attacked Palestine, their extremist civilians enjoy picnics while Palestinian children get massacred. This was the only time Zionists had to taste their own medicine and hide in bunkers, but Palestinians kids don't have that kind of luxury.

Hamas is Gaza's elected government, they have the right to defend their people as much any other nation on earth. Unfortunate for them that they don't have weaponry like the Israelis who takes advantage of that and kills civilians to spread terror.

For the sake of the argument even if i believed you that Israeli government has nothing to do with this and only their civilians are responsible then do you know what that means? that means Israel is a lawless country, basically you are saying their whole population is terrorist.
 
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yes i deny that, you people always like to start the story from the middle and then show the climax. That is not how real life works, you need to check your facts it was Israeli army that attacked the worshippers at Al Aqsa during the last week of Ramadan. You people don't discuss what happened during Ramadan but you have the audacity to blame Hamas for resisting?

You also need to realize that Netanyahus government was in trouble so he wanted easy way out, and what's better than beating a weak enemy to a pulp to become a hero.

I have shown you UN reports and Amnesty International reports regarding Hamas war crimes, if you are still denial, then you are person in denial.

And you mix things, just like Hamas like to throw mixed things to disinforms. You dragged Canadian statement related to the UN Resolution 73 98, then now jump into Al Aqsa attack case, which is 2 different stories. What is the reason Israel attack Al Aqsa? if not because of Hamas provocation?

that is not just illogical but senseless comment from you, Its Israeli ARMY with their tanks and jets that attacked Palestine, their extremist civilians enjoy picnics while Palestinian children get massacred. This was the only time Zionists had to taste their own medicine and hide in bunkers, but Palestinians kids don't have that kind of luxury.

You can't blame Israel ARMY attack Palestine/Hamas, if Palestine/Hamas attack them first, Israel also have right to defense themself. If you attack US then US will attack you back, if you attack Russia then Russia will attack you back, if you attack China, china will attack you back, how come you expect Israel sit idle when Palestine/Hamas attack them? :lol:

Massacre is another lie from Hamas that consume you. Just show me evidence if you can.

Hamas is Gaza's elected government, they have the right to defend their people as much any other nation on earth. Unfortunate for them that they don't have weaponry like the Israelis who takes advantage of that and kills civilians to spread terror.

LOL. Israel never attack them if they dont attack them. You are talking based on Hamas propaganda instead of facts.

Also you should not mixed Israel (with weaponry) and Israeli/Israel resident/settler; what UNR 73/98 condemn is Israel settlers, not Goverment.

For the sake of the argument even if i believed you that Israeli government has nothing to do with this and only their civilians are responsible then do you know what that means? that means Israel is a lawless country, basically you are saying their whole population is terrorist.

So you mean Palestine State is also lawless country because of their intifada attacks?
 

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