Indonesia Leaders : We Stand With The People of Palestine

[antonius123]

Indonesia will hush hush unless Indonesia wishes to jeopardize their F-15EX deal with America to phase out Su-27 and Su-30 and their KF-X deal with South Korea which uses American engines which America can block to Indonesia @Indos

Not necessarily like that. Indonesia has been supporting Palestina state long time ago, but still can buy F-16 and other weapon from US.

 

[antonius123]

@tower9 @Feng Leng @Viet @Indos @Whizzack @UKBengali @mike2000 is back @NEKONEKO @Lego Jangkar @Reashot Xigwin

 

[Respect4Respect01]

I stand neutral in this issue.

my friend, only Graves stay neutral, any living person always has some kind of opinion no matter what.

 

[antonius123]

my friend, only Graves stay neutral, any living person always has some kind of opinion no matter what.

I stay neutral, because in my opinion both parties: Israel and Hamas do atrocities of war, though in my view Hamas do worse, because they missuse of civil facility, hospital and mosque to provoke Israel including attacking civilian in purpose.

I support UN proposal for 2 state that living in peace.

 

[Respect4Respect01]

I stay neutral, because in my opinion both parties: Israel and Hamas do atrocities of war, though in my view Hamas do worse, because they missuse of civil facility, hospital and mosque to provoke Israel including attacking civilian in purpose.

I support UN proposal for 2 state that living in peace.

Okay...if you think Hamas is "worse" then you already have a negative opinion about them, so you are not so neutral as you want to be.

you need to do more research before you come to a conclusion. First of all its not a war, its a one sided genocide, Israel has one of the best armies, weapons, jets and they also control the borders. They contaminate water, they block the food supply, their only mission ethnic cleansing so more Zionists can move there (now Famous thief Jacob is from USA) , Palestinians are barely trying to survive there. Hamas is

Secondly do you have any idea that Gaza is a very small strip of land and is one of the most densely populated areas in the world?

i had many more points in my mind, but if you don't even know the basics then what is the point of telling you the truth.

 

[antonius123]

Okay...if you think Hamas is "worse" then you already have a negative opinion about them, so you are not so neutral as you want to be.

you need to do more research before you come to a conclusion. First of all its not a war, its a one sided genocide, Israel has one of the best armies, weapons, jets and they also control the borders. They contaminate water, they block the food supply, their only mission ethnic cleansing so more Zionists can move there (now Famous thief Jacob is from USA) , Palestinians are barely trying to survive there. Hamas is

Secondly do you have any idea that Gaza is a very small strip of land and is one of the most densely populated areas in the world?

i had many more points in my mind, but if you don't even know the basics then what is the point of telling you the truth.

Neutral means I do not support either Israel attacking Palestine or vice versa or 1 side is right another side is wrong. I said both are not innocent. But it doesnt prevent me to tell the truth which one is dirtier/better.

I did my research already. You are wrong if you think I dont know the basic regarding this issue.

Most of the terminology/jargon/rhetorics thrown by Hamas about Israel such as:
Genocide, Apartheid, blocking Palestinian as you said above are merely accusations without evidence and is very debatable if not want to be said as fact twisting. I have debated regarding those above with many members but none can come back with solid evidence. I can show you evidence on it.

That Gaza is dense/small cannot justify Hamas to do such acst considered as terrorism, such as sending rockets to civilians, human shield, and information manipulation, including missuse human (as shield), public facility, mosque, schools. I know those are ways of fighting, but those are not respected way. The justifiable way is : negotiations under UN, or fight with descent way by respecting human rights.

 

[Respect4Respect01]

Neutral means I do not support either Israel attacking Palestine or vice versa or 1 side is right another side is wrong. I said both are not innocent. But it doesnt prevent me to tell the truth which one is dirtier/better.

I did my research already. You are wrong if you think I dont know the basic regarding this issue.

Most of the terminology/jargon/rhetorics thrown by Hamas about Israel such as:
Genocide, Apartheid, blocking Palestinian as you said above are merely accusations without evidence and is very debatable if not want to be said as fact twisting. I have debated regarding those above with many members but none can come back with solid evidence. I can show you evidence on it.

That Gaza is dense/small cannot justify Hamas to do such acst considered as terrorism, such as sending rockets to civilians, human shield, and information manipulation, including missuse human (as shield), public facility, mosque, schools. I know those are ways of fighting, but those are not respected way. The justifiable way is : negotiations under UN, or fight with descent way by respecting human rights.

i thought i was debating with someone sensible, but after reading your comment i don't think you did any research like you claim.
Genocide, apartheid, controlling borders, are not just accusations but it doesn't matter if you want to close your eyes to whatever is happening there.

I could write a very long essay on Israeli atrocities but there is no point if you are not going to believe me, so its better if I post some evidence to prove my claims. I hope you trust reputable international organizations.

Amnesty International :https://www.amnesty.org/en/countrie...-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

UN claims its genocide : https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-186897/


AP : ICC launches war crimes probe into Israeli practices : https://apnews.com/article/israel-w...courts-crime-19117d4265f5d564256ea7fe75854aa6

ICC : https://www.icc-cpi.int/Pages/item.aspx?name=210303-prosecutor-statement-investigation-palestine

BC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56898864

Human Rights Watch : https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses

 

[antonius123]

i thought i was debating with someone sensible, but after reading your comment i don't think you did any research like you claim.

Yes, you are discussing with a sensible and critical guy.
You can't just throw what you believe without evidence, and thinking you are a sensible and other are insensible because of not believing what you believe.

Genocide, apartheid, controlling borders, are not just accusations but it doesn't matter if you want to close your eyes to whatever is happening there.

So you mean the ICJ (International Court Justice) has declared that Israel did genocide, apartheid?

Controlling border is not against human right, it is right of every country.

I could write a very long essay on Israeli atrocities but there is no point if you are not going to believe me, so its better if I post some evidence to prove my claims. I hope you trust reputable international organizations.

Amnesty International :https://www.amnesty.org/en/countrie...-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

UN claims its genocide : https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-186897/

These all are reports that Amnesty International received from an NGO. How come you say the NGO report is evidence if you are sensible enough. NGO could be subjective/bias and has political motive too. FYI, there is NGO pro Israel too

I quote this statement from your link:

Israel’s aggression against the Palestinian people of Gaza – Human Rights Council 9th special session – NGO statement (North-South XXI)

Written statement*
submitted by Nord-Sud XXI, a non-governmental organization in special consultative status

The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1996/31.​

AP : ICC launches war crimes probe into Israeli practices : https://apnews.com/article/israel-w...courts-crime-19117d4265f5d564256ea7fe75854aa6

This is "PROBE" launched by ICC, not an Evidence or Decision by ICC!

Do you understand what "PROBE" is? Probe is an effort to investigate and find evidence. The genocide of Israel status is still "allegedly".

The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court said Wednesday she has launched an investigation into alleged Israeli crimes in the Palestinian territories, plunging the court into the midst of one of the most fraught conflicts of the past half century.

ICC launches war crimes probe into Israeli practices

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court said Wednesday she has launched an investigation into alleged Israeli crimes in the Palestinian territories, plunging the court into the midst of one of the most fraught conflicts of the past half century.

apnews.com

ICC : https://www.icc-cpi.int/Pages/item.aspx?name=210303-prosecutor-statement-investigation-palestine

BC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56898864

Human Rights Watch : https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses

This is also an accusation from an NGO named "Human Right Watch", not a decision from ICC.

If you think accusations are evidence, then that means you are BIAS and not sensible.

Accusation need to be investigated and be trial before ICC with defender from the defendant. Prosecutor/Accuser need to show evidence for their accusation, the defendant has right to show evidence saying otherwise for ICC review. Once ICC determined that the accusation is right, then you can claim the decision as evidence, although defendant still can appeal.

@Globenim @kuge @Viet @tower9 @Whizzack @Indos

 

[antonius123]

Genocide, apartheid, controlling borders, are not just accusations but it doesn't matter if you want to close your eyes to whatever is happening there.

I could write a very long essay on Israeli atrocities but there is no point if you are not going to believe me, so its better if I post some evidence to prove my claims. I hope you trust reputable international organizations.

I didn't say Israel is free from atrocities at all, Perhaps they did one or some; but if you think it is just Israel did so and Hamas not, then you should ask your own sensibility.

There is reason why Hamas is called "terorrist". You have seen how Hamas launched hundred of rockets toward "CIVILIAN" instead of military base of Israel.

Amnesty International: Hamas committed war crimes against Gaza civilians

Amnesty International: Hamas committed war crimes against Gaza civilians

Amnesty International said in a report on Wednesday that Gaza's dominant Islamist Hamas committed war crimes against Palestinian civilians in the territory alleged to have collaborated with the enemy during last year's war with Israel.

www.reuters.com

Hamas use human shield

UN report outlines how Hamas used kids as human shields

The headlines in most places were entirely predictable: “UN Says Israel Killed 44 Palestinians in Schools During Gaza War.” That was indeed one finding of a UN report published Monday — but only pa…

nypost.com

@Globenim @tower9 @kuge @Viet @Whizzack @Indos @Reashot Xigwin @Lego Jangkar

 

[Respect4Respect01]

Yes, you are discussing with a sensible and critical guy.
You can't just throw what you believe without evidence, and thinking you are a sensible and other are insensible because of not believing what you believe.

So you mean the ICJ (International Court Justice) has declared that Israel did genocide, apartheid?

Controlling border is not against human right, it is right of every country.

have you ever seen map of Gaza? its an open air prison, how is it Israeli right to control the borders when its an occupied land according to United Nation and most of the countries on this earth.

This is "PROBE" launched by ICC, not an Evidence or Decision by ICC!

Do you understand what "PROBE" is? Probe is an effort to investigate and find evidence. The genocide of Israel status is still "allegedly".

The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court said Wednesday she has launched an investigation into alleged Israeli crimes in the Palestinian territories, plunging the court into the midst of one of the most fraught conflicts of the past half century.

Of course they are going to say "alleged" before the investigation, how can they label this genocide before investigation?
I understand what probe is but you clearly don't understand WHY they need to do this probe? Its just because ICC chief woke up one day and decided he want to investigate Israel for war crimes and genocide?

This is also an accusation from an NGO named "Human Right Watch", not a decision from ICC.

If you think accusations are evidence, then that means you are BIAS and not sensible.

Accusation need to be investigated and be trial before ICC with defender from the defendant. Prosecutor/Accuser need to show evidence for their accusation, the defendant has right to show evidence saying otherwise for ICC review. Once ICC determined that the accusation is right, then you can claim the decision as evidence, although defendant still can appeal.

do you even know anything about Human Rights Watch? its a very reputable and respected organization worldwide.
Lol, keep denying, we don't live in the 60's anymore, you can't hide genocide and ethnic cleansing these day.
Probably according to you Palestinians just "die" while sleeping and Israel doesn't do anything.

If we go by your logic, then who can prove the holocaust was real?

 

[Respect4Respect01]

I didn't say Israel is free from atrocities at all, Perhaps they did one or some; but if you think it is just Israel did so and Hamas not, then you should ask your own sensibility.

There is reason why Hamas is called "terorrist". You have seen how Hamas launched hundred of rockets toward "CIVILIAN" instead of military base of Israel.

Amnesty International: Hamas committed war crimes against Gaza civilians

Amnesty International: Hamas committed war crimes against Gaza civilians

Amnesty International said in a report on Wednesday that Gaza's dominant Islamist Hamas committed war crimes against Palestinian civilians in the territory alleged to have collaborated with the enemy during last year's war with Israel.

www.reuters.com

What do you mean they did some "one or some"? they freakin stole the WHOLE country and now they are killing Palestinians so they can settle Zionists there.

Look at that, that is occupation.

And nobody buys this "Hamas" bullshit anymore. Anybody who fights for their rights is labeled as terrorists, look at Taliban why is USA normalizing ties with them if they were so bad in the first place? You know Nelson Mandela was also in terror watch list?

 

[Bengal71]

The policy should be, ""We stand with people who stand with us".

 

[antonius123]

What do you mean they did some "one or some"? they freakin stole the WHOLE country and now they are killing Palestinians so they can settle Zionists there.

Look at that, that is occupation.

And nobody buys this "Hamas" bullshit anymore. Anybody who fights for their rights is labeled as terrorists, look at Taliban why is USA normalizing ties with them if they were so bad in the first place? You know Nelson Mandela was also in terror watch list?

You said: Israel stole WHOLE country....?

The question is: Stole from whom? Didn't Palestina State hasn't existed during British Mandate, and just declared by PLO after 1948 and officially established in 1988?

Also you bring wrong information and wrong understanding of the map here. This Palestine region did not belong to Palestine State, this used to belong to UK under British Mandate after UK defeated Ottoman before 1947.
Citation:

Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel established under the ex British Mandate region which is based on UN Partition Plan 1947, not by stealing the land from UK, leave alone Palestine State which was not existent yet.
Under UN Partition Plan, UN offer solution to divide the ex British Mandate land for Jewish State (which later on become Israel on 1948) and Arab State (which later on became Palestine State on 1988), but Arab states reject this proposed plan and waged war against Israel, from the war Egypt annexed Gaza, Jordan annexed West Bank of the land that originally allocated for Arab State, and never gave these occupied region to an independent Arab State (Palestine).
Citation:

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Later on in 1967 after Arab states attack Israel (6 day war) Israel win and annexed the west bank and gaza from Egypt and Jordan.

Sinai & Gaza has been returned to Egypt based on peace agreement (Campt David) between Israel & Egypt, and later on Gaza given to Palestine. Now under Oslo agreement, West bank was agreed to be occupied by both Palestine (area A &B) and Israel (area C) .
Citation:

West Bank - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So based on the history with citations above: Israel land is obtained by Israel legally based on UN Partition Plan 1947 - declared in 1948 and recognized by UN and international community; while West Bank area C is occupied legally based on "Oslo Accord."

No more illegally grabbing by Israel (maybe there, but very little). You have to wake up, Palestine State (Fatah) has agreed with Israel, only Hamas that is currently reject with that kind of war style (playing victim, dissinformation, etc), and those map with wrong understanding is brought by Hamas falsely.

@tower9 @Feng Leng @Globenim @mike2000 is back @Whizzack @kuge @Viet @Indos @nufix @Reashot Xigwin

 

[antonius123]

OK let's make this discussion open, so that we can come to conclusion which is right/wrong, and whether I am insensible or not

have you ever seen map of Gaza? its an open air prison, how is it Israeli right to control the borders when its an occupied land according to United Nation and most of the countries on this earth.

But what is the relationship with Israel violation? what Attrocities that Israel did regarding that?

You can't complain you dont have enough air space because your land is small, it is not necessarily your neighbor fault. Many small country like : Vatican also has limited open air.

Of course they are going to say "alleged" before the investigation, how can they label this genocide before investigation?
I understand what probe is but you clearly don't understand WHY they need to do this probe? Its just because ICC chief woke up one day and decided he want to investigate Israel for war crimes and genocide?

They need to do this probe because of the report/accusation. Accusation is not truth, until it is proven as truth. Every party can make inaccurate/subjective/bias, even false accusation. Trial is trial, accusation is accusation, not a verdict nor fact/truth, until it is fully examined and backed by evidence.

do you even know anything about Human Rights Watch? its a very reputable and respected organization worldwide.
Lol, keep denying, we don't live in the 60's anymore, you can't hide genocide and ethnic cleansing these day.
Probably according to you Palestinians just "die" while sleeping and Israel doesn't do anything.

If we go by your logic, then who can prove the holocaust was real?

Agree, it is reputable and respectable worldwide.

But it has received so many critiques for being biased and being under political influence too.

The international non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch (HRW) has been the subject of criticism from a number of observers. Critics of HRW include the national governments it has investigated, NGO Monitor, the media, and its founder (and former chairman), Robert L. Bernstein.

The criticism generally falls into the category of alleged bias, frequently in response to critical HRW reports. Bias allegations include the organization's being influenced by United States government policy, particularly in relation to reporting on Yugoslavia, Latin America, and the misrepresentation of human-rights issues in Eritrea and Ethiopia. Accusations in relation to the Arab–Israeli conflict include claims that HRW is biased against Israel. HRW has publicly responded to criticism of its reporting on Latin America and the Arab–Israeli conflict.

Criticism of Human Rights Watch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even if HRW is reputable and credible, their report still need be examined and evidenced too.

 

[antonius123]

You said: Israel stole WHOLE country....?

The question is: Stole from whom? Didn't Palestina State hasn't existed during British Mandate, and just declared by PLO after 1948 and officially established in 1988?

Also you bring wrong information and wrong understanding of the map here. This Palestine region did not belong to Palestine State, this used to belong to UK under British Mandate after UK defeated Ottoman before 1947.
Citation:

Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel established under the ex British Mandate region which is based on UN Partition Plan 1947, not by stealing the land from UK, leave alone Palestine State which was not existent yet.
Under UN Partition Plan, UN offer solution to divide the ex British Mandate land for Jewish State (which later on become Israel on 1948) and Arab State (which later on became Palestine State on 1988), but Arab states reject this proposed plan and waged war against Israel, from the war Egypt annexed Gaza, Jordan annexed West Bank of the land that originally allocated for Arab State, and never gave these occupied region to an independent Arab State (Palestine).
Citation:

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Later on in 1967 after Arab states attack Israel (6 day war) Israel win and annexed the west bank and gaza from Egypt and Jordan.

Sinai & Gaza has been returned to Egypt based on peace agreement (Campt David) between Israel & Egypt, and later on Gaza given to Palestine. Now under Oslo agreement, West bank was agreed to be occupied by both Palestine (area A &B) and Israel (area C) .
Citation:

West Bank - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So based on the history with citations above: Israel land is obtained by Israel legally based on UN Partition Plan 1947 - declared in 1948 and recognized by UN and international community; while West Bank area C is occupied legally based on "Oslo Accord."

No more illegally grabbing by Israel (maybe there, but very little). You have to wake up, Palestine State (Fatah) has agreed with Israel, only Hamas that is currently reject, and those map with wrong understanding is brought by Hamas falsely.

@tower9 @Feng Leng @Globenim @Whizzack @kuge @Viet @Indos @nufix @Reashot Xigwin

My explanation is explained in this video as well.

When the state of Israel was founded in 1948, it was done so with the approval of the United Nations. But today, Israel's enemies routinely challenge the legitimacy of its very existence. So, under international law, who's right? Israel? Or its enemies?


@Respect4Respect01 @tower9 @Globenim @kuge @Viet @Whizzack @Indos @Lego Jangkar @Reashot Xigwin @mike2000 is back