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Indonesia Defence Forum

Well from the way I see it the urgency is about what kind of force we are going to have in 2025 and specially in 2030. With China carrier might be in full operational capability in 2025 we need our force to extend their reach beyond EEZ. By 2030 China might have multiple carrier capability and this is where the game truly begin.

Even if we have lots of money we wont be able to balance China power in 10 years, let alone in 2025. So the best bet is for the countries in the region being on the sampe page and collectively upgrade their military power to deter China. If thats not enough then US can fill the gap. Keep in mind that its mainly a bluffing game for now,

Measuring military capability is not only about numbers or type of assets, but rather the collective ability to perform their task in effective manner. This is where the Force Multiplier comes into play, the other part is logistics. Having 70 Viper with enough tanker, EWA and proper ground radar can have large impact compare to having 100+ multiple platform without EWA/tanker. Sadly this force multiplier in our military development planning seems to be put in a back seat. For me its not having what we want but rather work with what we have and give it more power. In short our military planning should now focus on operational capabilities and capacity rather than performing MEF program blindly.

I really admire your optimism that the war will only start in 2030. I really hope you're right. So we can plan all things perfectly just like you said.

Looking at how things escalated though I'm not really sure. I tend to agree with some predictions that the war could start anytime after 3 years. Besides, I don't think US, NATO, QUAD, etc would want to wait until china getting even bigger and stronger before they start their much more assertive action.
 
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Indonesian is not Algeria, by long shot! we are far away from being depended on Russian completely (i would be damned if we do so), if anything to lean more on European expensive stuff still 360 percent better compared to those Vodka loving dudes
Lol.. no need to panic.. 😁 tis just a reminder of the other 5G jet in the market..
As the saying goes.. when one door closes, another opens...

I personally still prefer we stick with KFX for the medium term, and grow it from the basic Block 1 till the planned vlo block 3...
 
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Honestly, let's just look at things from a rather blunt perspective.

Right now, a few of ours neighbors are dealing with a state that are intruding onto their EEZ's and are leaning onto the US power block. Considering our attempts to be "neutral" has led to this certain state to intrude onto OUR EEZ (at an escalating pace), it is a no brainer that our government should lean onto the competing power block in response, nationalism be damned.

Regardless of what the shotcallers in Central Jakarta want to say, the geopolitical reality on the ground is something that they will eventually cannot ignore (considering the ever increasing response to our attempts at policing the area). And unfortunately to a lot of people online, the answer is not to rely on Russia or Europe but instead further into the United States.

To be as realistic as possible, what guarantee can Europe provide in response to the escalating situation in the SCS? Frankly speaking, the European Union has little to no combined interests in Southeast Asia; What guarantee can they provide that they will keep supporting the Indonesian government in the event of escalating tensions or (god forbid) a hot war?
Actually we are similar to United States' position before WW2, or even WW1. Stays out of conflict as much as possible, and thus it dooms some form of negligent to military and security affairs until it is all too late and that the elephant in the room cannot be ignored anymore. Maybe it is the problem of a big democracy? we need reason and clear motivation to rapidly do anything including military modernization, there need to be some form of kickstarter likewhat Pearl Harbor was to the US, as they used to only had 3 Carriers on Midway, and ends up having 27 by the end of the war. So i think our stance is understandable and follows historical pattern.
 
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There is nothing wrong with our stance . I don't know if it was a curse or a blessing we are simply too laid back for our own good . And God i hate for saying this . We are just too similar to US like a mirror . Without some hard stimulant and impetus our cogs and wheels are just too lazy to move .
Mark my words ... The shooting fest won't happened until 2023 . Why ?? Because PRC were more clever and cunning now . Without some means to equalize the playing field they won't start anyrhing funny . On the other hand the bullying will only escalates from 2021 onward

:coffee:
 
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Lol.. no need to panic.. 😁 tis just a reminder of the other 5G jet in the market..
As the saying goes.. when one door closes, another opens...

I personally still prefer we stick with KFX for the medium term, and grow it from the basic Block 1 till the planned vlo block 3...

That's actually fantastic idea. KFX might be 4.5 gen fighter in block-1, but they plan to introduce internal weapon bay in block-2, and full vlo feature in block-3. If we still want to get 5th gen then KFX is our best and wisest choice.

Speaking of SU-57, Russia had so much financial problems developing it. So it's probably underdeveloped in terms of 5th gen. It's still better than SU-35 of course but it's not in any way comparable to F-35 in terms of 5th gen characteristic.

I think let's commit to this jet, SHornet, and (if possible) F35 in the future

I agree with SHornet block III and KFX. Another good thing about SHornet is nobody wants it (so far). So after Boeing finished the order from US Navy (they want to reduce it from 78 to around 40), we can have SHornet block III production line for ourselves. Considering its competitive price (you shared the link before didn't you?) and relatively low CPFH, we can expand the fleet not just to meet MEF2024 but also ideal posture.
 
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When will KFX made it's first flight, IOC, FOC??

We need those jets fast,ASAP
33 F-16s just wont cut.
 
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If that Prabs rumoured motto "screw those single engine fighter!" True I think SHornet has more posibility.
It's actually pretty good. Same engine with KFX (It's not like F404 engine family is alien to us), good maritime strike capability, longer range, etc.

But maybe you're right, SHornet is too much undertaking for our AF. But again our new motto for defence procurement now is "MoD is the God, screw user's opinion!!". :drag:
When I think about it carefully, maybe this isn't fully a bad thing afteral. If we just let TNI do whatever they want, "barang kocak" like Kilo submarine or boomerang 8x8 surely will occupy our garage now.
When will KFX made it's first flight, IOC, FOC??

We need those jets fast,ASAP
33 F-16s just wont cut.
It'll take years for IFX to finally enter our fleet.
That is why our F16 fleet still need to get its CCIP upgrade.
 
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Our Marine force will be lead by 3 stars Generals next year? Thats awesome, is it going to be similar to how US put their marine corps? What interesting is how our Marine will report directly to Panglima and how KASAL role mainly do pembinaan. Really love this idea, now give them the tools they need mainly coastal defense things :D

Korps Marinir Akan Dipimpin Jenderal Bintang 3, Pengamat: Pembinaan Pasti Akan Berubah
Sudah jadi atensi sejak Perpres 66 tahun 2019 narik Marinir dari dibawah KSAL ditarik jadi Kotama Ops di bawah P5

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When I think about it carefully, maybe this isn't fully a bad thing afteral. If we just let TNI do whatever they want, "barang kocak" like Kilo submarine or boomerang 8x8 surely will occupy our garage now.

To think of it, our current MoD do seem to have better sense of managerial overall than our previous MoD

It'll take years for IFX to finally enter our fleet.
That is why our F16 fleet still need to get its CCIP upgrade.

That still assuming we will commit buy any of those without any hazzle (as in payment related)
 
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Our Marine force will be lead by 3 stars Generals next year? Thats awesome, is it going to be similar to how US put their marine corps? What interesting is how our Marine will report directly to Panglima and how KASAL role mainly do pembinaan. Really love this idea, now give them the tools they need mainly coastal defense things :D

Korps Marinir Akan Dipimpin Jenderal Bintang 3, Pengamat: Pembinaan Pasti Akan Berubah
I think US model can be copied to some extent, may or may not be separate branch but considering our geographical reality, upgunning and multiplying the Marines' strength is a must
 
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I'm surprised that there are people here who are surprised/annoyed that the US trusts Switzerland enough to offer them F-35s and not us. Switzerland has been a far more reliable partner for the US for a far longer time than us.

Does anyone seriously expect the US to entrust the F-35, their current top-of-the-line fighter, to us, while we are buying lots of russian and chinese weapons, being relatively friendly to Russia and China, and generally a far less reliable partner for the US compared to Switzerland? Hell, one of our top officials even went to China practically during Prabowo's US visit. Does that sound like "reliable partner" to you?

Trust is earned. Noone deserves to be trusted. If we want to earn their trust so that they are willing to allow us to buy the F-35 in a realistic timeframe, we have to earn their trust starting right now. If we continue to act like "the pretty girl being fought over by two studs", we will never get their top weapon systems.

Even the pretty girl will have to choose eventually. A pretty girl that refuses to choose will end up alone while the studs settle for other girls.
 
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Iver Huitfeldt vs 30FFM ; Indonesia with Ambitions to Build the Strongest Navy in Southeast Asia

20 November 2020


Danish frigate Iver Huitfeldt class (photo : Steve Jagger)

Indonesia is ambitious to focus investment to build the strongest naval force in Southeast Asia; recently, the archipelago country has spent $ 3 billion to buy 8 new generation frigates from Japan.
Currently, the Indonesian navy is considered to be the most powerful in Southeast Asia. However, the largest surface warship of the Indonesian Navy Sigma (Type 10514), the full load displacement is only about 2,300 tons, but the frigates of the naval forces of some Southeast Asian countries have reached 3,000 tons. It can be said that in terms of floating ships, Indonesia is currently far behind.
The Indonesian leaders, of course, are aware of this situation, so they have taken various measures to increase their strength; The Indonesian Navy has signed a contract to buy the Iver Huitfeldt class frigate from Denmark; This type of warships with a full load displacement of 6,645 tons, equipped with APAR four-sided scanning array radar, the purchase price of these two warships is 720 million USD.



Details of Iver Huitfeldt class (photo : NavalNews)
Not only interested in buying Danish warships, the Indonesian navy is also interested in the French frigate Gowind 2500. Although this 3,100-ton fully displacement warship is not "top of the line", its overall combat capabilities are not underestimated.
But while many people think the Indonesian Navy will choose warships have European roots, a competitor from Asia suddenly appeared, that frigates 30FFM of Japan, has been leading the Indonesian military approved take.
The 30FFM battleship was developed by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries of Japan. The standard displacement of this type of frigate is 3,900 tons, when fully loaded is 5,500 tons. Although compared with the French Gowind 2500, in terms of water stretch as well as combat ability, 30FFM are both higher; But compared to Iver Huitfeldt of Denmark, the 30FFM is no better in terms of combat strength, as well as range.



Iver Huitfeldt uses four diesel engines; The 30FFM uses a combination of a diesel engine and a gas turbine (CODAG). Although the two types of frigates had different propulsion systems, their top speeds were both 30 knots. But in terms of range, the distance of 6,000 nautical miles of the 30FFM is far less than 9,000 nautical miles of Iver Huitfeldt.
In terms of combat strength, Iver Huitfeldt also has many advantages, if the 30FFM is only equipped with the C-band OPY-1A active phase array radar (the simplified version of the FCS-3A). The main armament is the naval cannon Mk-45 127mm, 2 vertical launchers Mk-41 8 launch tubes and Type-17 anti-ship missile launchers.
The Iver Huitfeldt is equipped with a four-way APAR array radar system, the main weapon is 4 combinations of 8 Mk-41 vertical launch systems and 2 Mk-56 vertical launch systems consisting of 12 launch tubes / nest. well suited. Four anti-ship missile launchers Mk-141 Harpoon (one consists of four launch tubes).


Between the Japanese and Danish frigates, the displacement difference of more than 1,000 tons, so there is a large difference in such weapons and equipment; The main reason is because the Japanese 30FFM frigate is an anti-submarine version. So although sacrificing some air defense and anti-ship weapons, 30FFM owns the most advanced weapons systems, in anti-submarine warfare.

The 30FFM is equipped with a variable depth active sonar (VDS) and a drag array passive sonar (TASS). At the same time, the 30FFM is also equipped with unmanned water surface ships (USV), unmanned submarine vehicles (UUV) and self-propelled anti-mine munitions (EMD), to perform mine clearance missions.
In addition, the 30FFM also has an independent helicopter hangar, which can accommodate SH-60K helicopters. These advanced anti-submarine and anti-mine systems are indispensable for the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force, whose primary mission is anti-submarine warfare and anti-mine action. However, it is a bit "luxury" for Indonesia.



So why is 30FFM still "noticed" and favored by the leaders of the Indonesian Army? The reasons were none other than the following three; First, the 30FFM has a displacement of 5,500 tons, the original anti-submarine warfare systems can also be dismantled, so it has enough space and payload to carry other anti-ship and anti-ship weapons systems that Indonesia needs.
Second is the low cost of 30FFM, according to the announcement, the price of two 30FFMs ordered by Japan was only 467 million USD, then reduced to about 441 million USD.
Although the Japanese 30FFM price is lower than the Iver Huitfeldt class of Denmark, but do not forget that, many details Iver Huitfeldt apply to civilian standards, so the cost of new construction has been reduced, but the quality cannot compare with 30FFM, fully warships apply.



Third is the most important reason, Japan has agreed to transfer some technology to Indonesia to build 30FFM frigates. In this way, Indonesia only needs to pay $ 3 billion to get 8 30FFM frigates, of which 4 are purchased complete and the remaining 4 are built in Indonesia. This is certainly a huge temptation for Indonesia.
It is certain that once there are eight 30FFM frigates, Indonesian naval might will lead the entire Southeast Asia region. Currently Japan is actively offering 30FFM, but it is not known whether Indonesia will decide to buy it or not?
But with the ambition of leading in Southeast Asia in the navy of the Indonesian leadership, as well as the effort to develop the defense industry of Japan, it is certain that the contract to purchase and sell the 30FFM frigates from Indonesia with Japan will be successful.
(KienThuc)
 
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