Indonesia Defence Forum

[striver44]

I think our chance to have F-35 evaporate the day we reject US base offer.

 

[Ravager]

I think our chance to have F-35 evaporate the day we reject US base offer.

Part of the reason but not the whole reason of said calculation .

our politicians need to get rid some mindset which says we were pretty girl contested by 2 stud, those behaviour need to be ended, everyone needs comitment

The premise it self was not wrong . It was the confidence/arrogance based on it that was into the question . There was a different treatment between " equal partner " and " donor recipient " ... And never ever put the two in the same sentence during your negotiation

 

[¿Por qué?]

Be very careful with your political nuances statement there . Wether LBP has bigger influences or not it still has to be seen and proven and JKW was still our legally our superior chief of Armed forces .

And this is a defence related forum not a political one . Keep the political side of things to the politicians .

And i was one of those so called promote the " learning curves neccesity " mantras . If you just knowed on how much missguided and ill informed personel can cause damages and havocs to our sophisticated equipments you will believed in it too ...

Thanks for your advise. I just deleted that part. Sometimes being too carried away by this "democracy" spirit I forget that this administration in some part really love to copy Suharto's way in enforcing its power to its own people. But that's for another forum.

Well, if you're right it means we can expect to see some major fireworks in Swiss Air Force then.

 

[Gundala]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1330280327739285507

I don't think KCR 60 qualified as a major complex naval vessel.
most likely a frigate.

Wow thats the best rumour of the day I have. But yea let the private sector do it, give them chance to participate in more complex ship build. Let the omnibus law be implemented and see if our private sector is up for it.

On the other note why be salty about that F-35 rejection? If they dont trust us enough its our fault, not theirs.
We are plying both side, its expected that both side wont trust us fully.

Rumour said that US going to activate its Armada 1 and will be based in Singapore, it is clear geopolitically that our neighbor in theory would have more advance US made weapon then us, same goes with our Southern neighbor. Our rejection to host US made P8 to be operated inside our teritoty also confirm the notion of us might not getting the best one compare to her ally. Like I said its not about the F-35, its more about "measuring" the trust level between both nation.

UEA got approved for F-35 right? They host US military in Al Dhafra and allow them to conduct military operation from there and agreed to sign peace with Israel. Other non ally nation who might also has it? well I agree with what Nike said.

There is no such thing as free lunch. We as a nation need to do better job in alligning our national interest with the development of regional geopolitics and power balance. If we wanted to play both side in the name of bebas aktif then we have to build up our military in proportion to the curent thread and regional power balance. Droping SU-35 and getting 48 F16V will add more deterence effect and in-line with the current govt. "taste of the month" of wanting to get close to US. No need to have F-35 for now, lets work with our neighbor who has it and make sure we have interoprability assets with them to deter Northern aggression, Build more trust and cooperation with Sing and Aussie, our interest are in-line for now. Work from there. Have an exercise with Aussie like we did with Japan, show them where we stand. We dont need to conduct it with the whole Quad, but having military exercise with each one of them alone will show our clear stand in international eyes.

Are we up for it? Or is it going to come back to another assets diversification embargo mumbo jumbo? Threat has changed and its right outside our front yard now, adapt or be done with it.

 

[striver44]

some people I've talked with in regards to US base here speak about national pride. basically some bebas aktif BS crap.....

lmao


Speaking of proud, Turkey have a more proud military history than Indonesia , yet they host one of the largest US base in the mid east region. not because they like the US, but geopolitical reality forced them to do so.

 

[umigami]

Wow thats the best rumour of the day I have. But yea let the private sector do it, give them chance to participate in more complex ship build. Let the omnibus law be implemented and see if our private sector is up for it.

On the other note why be salty about that F-35 rejection? If they dont trust us enough its our fault, not theirs.
We are plying both side, its expected that both side wont trust us fully.

Rumour said that US going to activate its Armada 1 and will be based in Singapore, it is clear geopolitically that our neighbor in theory would have more advance US made weapon then us, same goes with our Southern neighbor. Our rejection to host US made P8 to be operated inside our teritoty also confirm the notion of us might not getting the best one compare to her ally. Like I said its not about the F-35, its more about "measuring" the trust level between both nation.

UEA got approved for F-35 right? They host US military in Al Dhafra and allow them to conduct military operation from there and agreed to sign peace with Israel. Other non ally nation who might also has it? well I agree with what Nike said.

There is no such thing as free lunch. We as a nation need to do better job in alligning our national interest with the development of regional geopolitics and power balance. If we wanted to play both side in the name of bebas aktif then we have to build up our military in proportion to the curent thread and regional power balance. Droping SU-35 and getting 48 F16V will add more deterence effect and in-line with the current govt. "taste of the month" of wanting to get close to US. No need to have F-35 for now, lets work with our neighbor who has it and make sure we have interoprability assets with them to deter Northern aggression, Build more trust and cooperation with Sing and Aussie, our interest are in-line for now. Work from there. Have an exercise with Aussie like we did with Japan, show them where we stand. We dont need to conduct it with the whole Quad, but having military exercise with each one of them alone will show our clear stand in international eyes.

Are we up for it? Or is it going to come back to another assets diversification embargo mumbo jumbo? Threat has changed and its right outside our front yard now, adapt or be done with it.

No need to be worry. Looking at the latest update, US fighter will come! Whatever it is...

 

[Gundala]

No need tonbe worry. Looking at the latest update, US fighter will come! Whatever it is...

Agree, Im more worry about having Hornet as it require more money being a new platform. I prefer having Viper and add one or two air tanker. Not that I dislike Hornet tho, its just not wise with the current economic situation.

 

[trishna_amṛta]

Neutral Switzerland just got offered F35s, why can't neutral Indonesia have it too?

Since when does Switzerland is neutral? More importantly since when does Indonesia is neutral?! Take a look of the 1955 Bandung Conference participants. Going slightly back, take a look who's been "helping" Indonesia for getting independence. Even the more hardcore "neutral countries" such as Liechtenstein or Saint Kitts & Nevis are also leaning toward somewhere out of necessity.

I guess they don't trust us enough lol

Can't exactly blame them for not trusting us.

Agree, Im more worry about having Hornet as it require more money being a new platform. I prefer having Viper and add one or two air tanker. Not that I dislike Hornet tho, its just not wise with the current economic situation.

We have a clear & present threat at our very own front door. Money should not be a problem even with this great plague currently happening. We can always take more "loan" as long we can manage the repayment schedule, so it shouldn't be much of a problem. Extremis malis extrema remedia!

 

[umigami]

Agree, Im more worry about having Hornet as it require more money being a new platform. I prefer having Viper and add one or two air tanker. Not that I dislike Hornet tho, its just not wise with the current economic situation.

If that Prabs rumoured motto "screw those single engine fighter!" True I think SHornet has more posibility.
It's actually pretty good. Same engine with KFX (It's not like F404 engine family is alien to us), good maritime strike capability, longer range, etc.

But maybe you're right, SHornet is too much undertaking for our AF. But again our new motto for defence procurement now is "MoD is the God, screw user's opinion!!".

 

[striver44]

Since when does Switzerland is neutral? More importantly since when does Indonesia is neutral?!

You realized that it's actually a sarcastic question right?

 

[¿Por qué?]

To deal with China's threat we can not be too picky. The most important thing is the availability. We can't spend so much money for brand new fighters that can only be delivered in 2025.

Our best option seems to be Shornet Block III. Boeing can produce it at a rate of 2 jets per month. They are currently producing 78 orders for US Navy. The good news is US Navy wants to reduce the numbers so they can allocate some of the first batch to us.

The next best option is obviously F-16 EDA. Even if we want to upgrade it to V-standard it'd probably take only around 2-3 yrs. The problem is we don't know for sure how many block-40 available in the desert.

The next one is used EF Typhoon. Not just 15 Austrian T1, there are actually more T1 and even T2 for sale if we want to acquire them.

I'm not sure on Rafale. I think Armée de l'Air would only send their used Rafale to Greece for now.

 

[Whizzack]

C'mon you guys.. don't you all be sulking like that just coz Uncle Sam ain't giving us F-35s..

If our craving for Gen-5 is so bad, this here can still be our fix eh?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1330234949497217028

 

[Gundala]

To deal with China's threat we can not be too picky. The most important thing is the availability. We can't spend so much money for brand new fighters that can only be delivered in 2025.

Our best option seems to be Shornet Block III. Boeing can produce it at a rate of 2 jets per month. They are currently producing 78 orders for US Navy. The good news is US Navy wants to reduce the numbers so they can allocate some of the first batch to us.

The next best option is obviously F-16 EDA. Even if we want to upgrade it to V-standard it'd probably take only around 2-3 yrs. The problem is we don't know for sure how many block-40 available in the desert.

The next one is used EF Typhoon. Not just 15 Austrian T1, there are actually more T1 and even T2 for sale if we want to acquire them.

I'm not sure on Rafale. I think Armée de l'Air would only send their used Rafale to Greece for now.

Well from the way I see it the urgency is about what kind of force we are going to have in 2025 and specially in 2030. With China carrier might be in full operational capability in 2025 we need our force to extend their reach beyond EEZ. By 2030 China might have multiple carrier capability and this is where the game truly begin.

Even if we have lots of money we wont be able to balance China power in 10 years, let alone in 2025. So the best bet is for the countries in the region being on the sampe page and collectively upgrade their military power to deter China. If thats not enough then US can fill the gap. Keep in mind that its mainly a bluffing game for now,

Measuring military capability is not only about numbers or type of assets, but rather the collective ability to perform their task in effective manner. This is where the Force Multiplier comes into play, the other part is logistics. Having 70 Viper with enough tanker, EWA and proper ground radar can have large impact compare to having 100+ multiple platform without EWA/tanker. Sadly this force multiplier in our military development planning seems to be put in a back seat. For me its not having what we want but rather work with what we have and give it more power. In short our military planning should now focus on operational capabilities and capacity rather than performing MEF program blindly.

 

[Chestnut]

Honestly, let's just look at things from a rather blunt perspective.

Right now, a few of ours neighbors are dealing with a state that are intruding onto their EEZ's and are leaning onto the US power block. Considering our attempts to be "neutral" has led to this certain state to intrude onto OUR EEZ (at an escalating pace), it is a no brainer that our government should lean onto the competing power block in response, nationalism be damned.

Regardless of what the shotcallers in Central Jakarta want to say, the geopolitical reality on the ground is something that they will eventually cannot ignore (considering the ever increasing response to our attempts at policing the area). And unfortunately to a lot of people online, the answer is not to rely on Russia or Europe but instead further into the United States.

To be as realistic as possible, what guarantee can Europe provide in response to the escalating situation in the SCS? Frankly speaking, the European Union has little to no combined interests in Southeast Asia; What guarantee can they provide that they will keep supporting the Indonesian government in the event of escalating tensions or (god forbid) a hot war?

 

[Nike]

Indonesian is not Algeria, by long shot! we are far away from being depended on Russian completely (i would be damned if we do so), if anything to lean more on European expensive stuff still 360 percent better compared to those Vodka loving dudes