Indonesia Defence Forum

[dr.knowhow]

Personally , i don't buy the french bullshits . I just simply don't believe them . While we had a lot of ToT from them mostly just superficial while they keep things important even for a maintenance sake close to their chest and they tend to make much whining noises when we doing something trying to break a mold or tweak something .
And regarding the subs .... All i could say is while much of blame were come from our side . Disingenouos and underdelivered promises were understatement here .
Well , at least we got something from that too
Regarding the typhon . We are simply take plane as it is and use it until the expired date comes and no modification would be done at all . All we need is a number today .
There is a big chance we all go for KFX continuation

Don't get me wrong, not saying there ain't no benefit with dealing with the French. For example Korea got a lot of help from them, Ukraine and Russia developing gas turbine engines for its cruise missiles since the 80s. There were also non-military deals where kept its promises and stayed truthful to the terms of contract. It is just that it really depends from case to case and often times certain administration are more favorable than the others.

Also the negotiations seems to be still going on so I hope we could find the solution. Fortunately all these Covid stuff and renegotiation is not affecting KF-X program. Also tells some prospects about the renegotiation itself as well..

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Diğer örnek SOM olacaktır. Lockheed, F-35'in başlattığı ACM pazarında JSM ile rekabet etmek istedi, böylece Türkiye'ye teknolojik olarak yardımcı oldular. Sadece başarısızlıkla sonuçlandı çünkü LM, Türkiye'nin siyasi ve diplomatik işlerinde yaşanan boktan şovu bekleyemezdi.

Turkey did not want to help to improve Som J, Sage and ROKETSAN TUBITAK project had already been started. Seeing that Raytheon and Konsberg agreed, Lockheed partnered with Roketsan to speed things up. Except for the F35, there is no industry loss between us and the US, including Som j. I don't know what country you're making up these words from, but when there is no evidence, you should stop the nonsense.

 

[umigami]

Japan’s Suga to focus on security as he visits Vietnam, Indonesia
Prime minister’s first overseas trip since his September appointment to show commitment to Southeast Asia.

“Indonesia, which puts a high primacy on ASEAN’s centrality, is going to be very ambivalent about the Quad because it undermines that whole principle … They are unlikely to jump on the Quad bandwagon,” said Euan Graham at the Singapore-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.

Suga’s visit also coincides with Japan’s efforts to diversify its supply chains and reduce reliance on China by bringing production home or locating more in Southeast Asia.
.....


so they'll open more production in Indonesia if we enter they so called small-NATO ??

 

[Chestnut]

so they'll open more production in Indonesia if we enter they so called small-NATO ??

So wait, what happens if we join the Quad? Does it become the Quint?

 

[Ravager]

Don't get me wrong, not saying there ain't no benefit with dealing with the French. For example Korea got a lot of help from them, Ukraine and Russia developing gas turbine engines for its cruise missiles since the 80s. There were also non-military deals where kept its promises and stayed truthful to the terms of contract. It is just that it really depends from case to case and often times certain administration are more favorable than the others.

Also the negotiations seems to be still going on so I hope we could find the solution. Fortunately all these Covid stuff and renegotiation is not affecting KF-X program. Also tells some prospects about the renegotiation itself as well..

You are not wrong there bro !! If there is something wrong with i've been writing . Then i apoligized to you . Like it or not we had a lot of ToT from them and we have to give the credits when it's due . And i also agree it's on case by case basis . But it's just they give me a bad vibe with all those promises thrown around like there is no tomorrow .
Forgive me for my blunt and harsh response before . It's just i'm a realistic guy and i don't want my hopes and expectation get uplifted so high while there isn't any clear press release or binding written contract were signed as yet . 'Cause rumours could only go so far right ..

 

[Chestnut]

Guess by "Korean Mutant" you mean the subs Indonesia got from Korea? Not so sure what you are trying to emphasize regarding this matter as I don't exactly know every news and detail about the subs, though you sound quite negative concerning those affairs so I'll say I'm curious. Would you mind if I ask?

IIRC there wasn't any malicious wrong doing on PT PAL's or DSME's part, rather the Indonesian Navy wanted them to cut costs and corners and they got what they asked for in the end; A sub that had problems BECAUSE they asked the shipbuilders to cut costs and corners.

What's happening right now is just political face saving. The South Koreans knows how to build submarines, we just weren't ready to bear the capital investment for them.

If Indonesia wants an alternative to US manufactured fighter jets go buy the Rafales. Yes it is expensive both in terms of procurement and operating costs but that's what you've gotta pay to escape the US. Gripen is out of contention because the NG variants are almost as expensive as F-16 to procure although cheaper to operate, thus a lot of the key components are either Swedish versions of American/European origin. I'm not sure if this is actually the case tho as seen from the F-35 "negotiation". Also forget F-15EX, it is expensive, thus F-15 is not a jet which US sells to any foreign country. Also they have F-18E/F for that role.

Don't expect ToT of those kind of critical technology, especially from the French. They are even more notorious talking about ToT compared to for example, the US. In case of US its hard to get the approval of the congress but once you get that, they keep their promises. French are the ones who don't even keep those promises. Koreans learnt it the hard way.

Been saying it for awhile, the SHornets are STUPIDLY capable for how much they are being asked for. Engine non-commonality and lesser armament range is made up by a lower (predicted) lower operating cost, lower procurement costs, buddy tanker, and the potential for a dedicated EW variant. Not to mention with the RAAF and the USN operating SHornets along with the RMAF's legacy Hornets, it allows better interoperability with other forces in the region.

Looking like a fanboy aside, there is no point for the Air Force or Navy to continue to operate "mixed" fleets of equipment. If the Army wants to continue to buy every MRAP design under the sun then that is their problem. But with everything that is going on in the region, along with their limited budget when compared to the Army; the Air Force and the Navy simply cannot afford to non-standardize its assets, be it financially or tactically.

 

[dr.knowhow]

Japan’s Suga to focus on security as he visits Vietnam, Indonesia
Prime minister’s first overseas trip since his September appointment to show commitment to Southeast Asia.

“Indonesia, which puts a high primacy on ASEAN’s centrality, is going to be very ambivalent about the Quad because it undermines that whole principle … They are unlikely to jump on the Quad bandwagon,” said Euan Graham at the Singapore-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.

Suga’s visit also coincides with Japan’s efforts to diversify its supply chains and reduce reliance on China by bringing production home or locating more in Southeast Asia.
.....


so they'll open more production in Indonesia if we enter they so called small-NATO ??

I think you should rather see that as a parallel not one being the result of another. Moving your production chains from China to SEA has been the trend for last few years and I think will stay a trend for a while.

Talking about Quad, SEA nations are more like a bonus. Good if we can get them committed, but not much lost if we can't. Even if countries put more emphasis on independent doctrines and ASEAN, it it still unlikely China would change it's diplomatic stance and regress/yield from its regional interests. So apart from those few pro-Chinese nations of the region, can't really see more of them going pro-China, especially when they are replacing China's role up until the 2000's

Quad really is up to India at this point. They historically have been one of the leaders of Non-Aligned Movement and despite their recent relationship with the west, notably with the US, Japan and France, it still seems to be the case that they are more inclined towards NAM and resolving their conflict with Pakistan on themselves, although they haven't had much success in that matter. Talking about their conflict with China, although the Chinese military is expanding and developing on massive pace, they will still focus in the eastern part of their theater, especially in the SCS, ECS and Yellow Sea. It's not like they could get rid of the Himalayas all of the sudden. Even when we give such emphasis that Quad is the quasi-Indo Pacific Treaty Organization, due to its nature of geological locations of the member nations/possible members, it is obviously more focused in the Pacific region, especially countering China's A2/AD doctrine in region. TBH I really can't see much reason for India, a nation in the middle of the Indian Ocean, to join such Pacific oriented treaty.

 

[Ravager]

IIRC there wasn't any malicious wrong doing on PT PAL's or DSME's part, rather the Indonesian Navy wanted them to cut costs and corners and they got what they asked for in the end; A sub that had problems BECAUSE they asked the shipbuilders to cut costs and corners.

What's happening right now is just political face saving. The South Koreans knows how to build submarines, we just weren't ready to bear the capital investment for actual credible defense deterrence.

I couldn't argue on that summary . While the rest is up to a different interpretation and and opinions . And i don't even want to bother on digging that rabbit hole anymore than allready is .
It's all about mentality .... We are simply aren't there yet .


Sigh

 

[dr.knowhow]

You are not wrong there bro !! If there is something wrong with i've been writing . Then i apoligized to you . Like it or not we had a lot of ToT from them and we have to give the credits when it's due . And i also agree it's on case by case basis . But it's just they give me a bad vibe with all those promises thrown around like there is no tomorrow .
Forgive me for my blunt and harsh response before . It's just i'm a realistic guy and i don't want my hopes and expectation get uplifted so high while there isn't any clear press release or binding written contract were signed as yet . 'Cause rumours could only go so far right ..

No no, nothing to apologize. We are having civil discussions so having different opinions ain't a problem. In this case, I wasn't against anything but rather was just curious of the insights you might be able to provide because my knowledge regarding Indonesia's defense related matters surely cannot be better than your's.

IIRC there wasn't any malicious wrong doing on PT PAL's or DSME's part, rather the Indonesian Navy wanted them to cut costs and corners and they got what they asked for in the end; A sub that had problems BECAUSE they asked the shipbuilders to cut costs and corners.

What's happening right now is just political face saving. The South Koreans knows how to build submarines, we just weren't ready to bear the capital investment for them.



Been saying it for awhile, the SHornets are STUPIDLY capable for how much they are being asked for. Engine non-commonality and lesser armament range is made up by a lower (predicted) lower operating cost, lower procurement costs, buddy tanker, and the potential for a dedicated EW variant. Not to mention with the RAAF and the USN operating SHornets along with the RMAF's legacy Hornets, it allows better interoperability with other forces in the region.

Looking like a fanboy aside, there is no point for the Air Force or Navy to continue to operate "mixed" fleets of equipment. If the Army wants to continue to buy every MRAP design under the sun then that is their problem. But with everything that is going on in the region, along with their limited budget when compared to the Army; the Air Force and the Navy simply cannot afford to non-standardize its assets, be it financially or tactically.

Thank you for your insight. Yeah, building a submarine is a different game to conventional ship building. We were lucky that we had top-notch ship builders and especially one of the world's best welders. We were also very lucky to get really good terms with the Germans regarding the ToT. I still think Indonesia is taking the right step. You guys are now building your own LPDs and exporting them even. Give time and you will be able to develop the human resources of good welders.

Also I agree with your point about Super Bugs. Often underestimated because of the rather low T/W ratio but the pilots themselves seem to be very satisfied. Also on top of that it's a very trendy jet in terms of it's maneuverability and WVR doctrines, especially considering it is one of the first jets to actually implement post-stall maneuvers like the pirouette into it's warfighting capability. Also top-notch avionics on top of that and although relatively underpowered compared to its weight, F414 is still a decent engine. USN sticking with the F414 not opting for EPE speaks of something. Last but not least, being a carrier-based fighter with that rigid airframe really is a huge plus in terms of operability and longevity.

 

[umigami]

Sadly There is no official news mentioning about SHornet up until now, so we can put that option in the box.

 

[Chestnut]

I couldn't argue on that summary . While the rest is up to a different interpretation and and opinions . And i don't even want to bother on digging that rabbit hole anymore than allready is .
It's all about mentality .... We are simply aren't there yet .


Sigh

Keep in mind this was handled under Ryamizard, so you can sum it up yourself pretty much.

Last but not least, being a carrier-based fighter with that rigid airframe really is a huge plus in terms of operability and longevity.

With this last part, you can argue that there might a be (predicted) lower operating cost since a notional TNI-AU SHornet would largely be land based and isn't subjected to constant salinized air that are typical of the USN's SHornet fleet. If anything I would like to see an older CPFH estimate of the RAAF's SHornet fleet to (roughly) compare them to the CPFH of the USN's SHornet fleet and see if the theory rings true.

 

[dr.knowhow]

Turkey did not want to help to improve Som J, Sage and ROKETSAN TUBITAK project had already been started. Seeing that Raytheon and Konsberg agreed, Lockheed partnered with Roketsan to speed things up. Except for the F35, there is no industry loss between us and the US, including Som j. I don't know what country you're making up these words from, but when there is no evidence, you should stop the nonsense.

No, you've understood me wrong. Well, I would say it's my bad expressing it that way. I didn't mean 'SOM was a failure' but rather that it was a 'commercial failure for LM'. The word "failure" was meant in that sense They opted to compete with JSM but now the opportunity is gone because Turkey is out of the program. Nothing wrong with Aseslan or Turkey's side of things in developing SOM.

Anyways let's not talk about it further since this is Indonesian defence forum.

 

[Kansel]

Sadly There is no official news mentioning about SHornet up until now, so we can put that option in the box.

Ofc, what did u expect?

 

[umigami]

Gaduh Politik Austria Gegara Prabowo Mau Borong Eurofighter

"Menjual Eurofighter Typhoon ke Indonesia bukanlah solusi untuk tuduhan korupsi seputar pembelian tersebut," ujarnya seperti dilansir salah satu media terkemuka di Austria, Der Standard, Minggu (18/10/2020).

"Selain itu, perlu dicermati apakah Indonesia merupakan mitra negosiasi yang cocok karena situasi hak asasi manusia setempat," kata Hoyos.
‐-------
Ooppssss.....

 

[Fl0gger]

Yeah! Im with you on this. Middle ground as of below heavy but abit above medium type with lots of carrying capacity. Tho the flight ceiling is relatively low and the engine power is somewhat mediocare in its class but hey even the used one doesnt need to be upgraded!

konsultan Jerman yg mana nih? Waktu Leo itu sempet kisruh dan terindikasi markup yg tidak membumi kalo ga salah. Setelah di konfirmasi ke negaranya langsung ternyata harganya jauh lebih murah so "konsultannya" langsung masuk kotak. Kalo "konsultan" ini yg dimaksud mari kita sama-sama berdoa semoga kebagian persenan

Absolutely!! bisa geger dunia persilatan formil lokal

Bukan itu beda lagi ini konsultan nya yg ngasih clue agar lgs ke jerman tanpa lewat kontraktor lokal