Indonesia Defence Forum

[Nike]

There's a reason why our Foreign Office withdrew the negotiation with them and seeing what's happening to Philippines & Vietnam, i'm pessimistic on negotiating with them

Unless Xi Jin Ping withdraw from his office and new official take the seat especially from Dove and economy development faction

 

[Indos]

My main gripe with the KFX program is the fact that people are willing to sacrifice a stable workhorse in our inventory for an unproven design with limited advantage all for the sake of national prestige and egotism.

OK then keep importing weapon until Indonesia reach the year 2100. Did we ever learn the mistake of our ancestor in the past that only think about buying rifle and never think about making one ???? On the other hand there is Japanese with Meiji restoration that make Japanese can surpasses many western countries.

 

[Cromwell]

Unless Xi Jin Ping withdraw from his office and new official take the seat especially from Dove and economy development faction

I thought there was article around 2 or 3 years ago about CCP Politburo Conggres making President's Office for life.

 

[umigami]

Look like Prabowo intend to outsourcing the jobs in "pangan" sector to Sandiaga Uno, LoL.

Indonesian Army awards contract to Scytalys for its Interoperability Command and Control System
Defense News July 2020 Global Security army industry
Posted On Thursday, 16 July 2020 14:27



Scytalys announced it has received a 49$ M contract award from the Indonesian Ministry of Defence, through an open competitive tender, for the provision of the Indonesian Armed Forces’ Interoperability Command & Control System.
Follow Army Recognition on Google News at this link

Interoperability Command & Control System (Picture source: Scytalys)

The system, which Scytalys undertakes to implement and deliver within a 3-year time frame, includes the following elements:
• Design and development of the Indonesian National Data Link system
• Design and development of a centralized state-of-the-art C4ISR system and related new facilities, synthesizing the Common Operational Picture and increasing Situational Awareness
• Integration of Command Centers from all branches (Army, Navy and Air Force) to the C4ISR system
• Design and development of an integrated remote Surveillance and Monitoring system, further enhancing the Situational Awareness and Interoperability.

The program will establish the National Interoperability Framework for the Indonesian Armed Forces and will pave the way in realizing their Network Centric Operations requirements and objectives, so much needed in modern warfare. This will in turn prove to be a Force Multiplier for the Indonesian Armed Forces, reinforcing their capabilities and effectiveness. “We greatly value this contract award, which we consider of strategic importance, as it will enable the Indonesian Armed Forces to acquire the necessary National Data Link, C4ISR systems, technologies and facilities in order to build their Interoperability Framework and conduct their inter and intra-service Network Centric Operations into the future. Scytalys is committed to delivering a turnkey solution that will fully satisfy the Indonesian MoD’s requirements”, said Dimitris Karantzavelos, CEO of Scytalys.


“This success has been preceded by other contracts awards for Scytalys in the Far East, not only in Indonesia but also in S. Korea and Japan. The company is poised to take advantage of the global trend in multiplying the value-added of different defense assets by linking them together” said Nick Papatsas, Member of the Board of Scytalys, representing EFA Group, the main owner of Scytalys. “We believe that Scytalys will repeat the success of THEON Sensors, our other global leader company in night vision and thermal imaging systems”, Mr. Papatsas added.

Scytalys S.A. (ex. Interoperability Systems International Hellas) specializes in the design, development, integration, installation, testing, and follow-on support of Tactical Data Links and Interoperability solutions, Mission and Command & Control systems and Mission and ISR solutions.


https://www.armyrecognition.com/def...kSSLJ5QChrcWUni4JtYftJYMUGs0X5CxEyLwyapXnfj_8

I am forgot Indonesia is Theon user right now

What's theon?

 

[Nike]

I thought there was article around 2 or 3 years ago about CCP Politburo Conggres making President's Office for life.

I had heard it before, but seems there is talk about it

What's theon?

Theon optronic and sensor devices, apparently Indonesia army will standarized using Theon products and had secure the commercial rights and laboratory for the optics had been build in Pindad area

https://www.theon.com/

 

[Gen3115]

have been to def***talk forum in kfx thread in latest post, some poster has bright tought about kfx, related to aquisition cost compare to f35 and fa50, in his/her conclusion next decade f35 will be more cheaper than today cost, but apparantly kfx ability are lower than f35 even after kfx block 2 upgrade and in same time fa50 has upgraded their capability, how much cost disparity between fa50, kfx and f35 still unknown make it a question is kfx worthed for the money when they have upgraded fa50, f35 and also f15 in same time?

this make another question what is kfx technolgical advantage over fa50? and how far is technological leap from fa50 to kfx?

meanwhile i have read not so long ago, some indonesian counterpart little unsatisfied with kfx, they said fkx not significant different from fa50, i dont know who said that but i'm sure someonelse here have read it, perhaps thats why some opinion (bold) in this article emerge.

My main gripe with the KFX program is the fact that people are willing to sacrifice a stable workhorse in our inventory for an unproven design with limited advantage all for the sake of national prestige and egotism.

IMO, KFX is still a significant leap over the FA-50, you get a twin-engine fighter with indigenous AESA radar, US and EU armaments (including BVR) and probably what looks like lower RCS compared to other 4.5 gen fighters. Meanwhile, despite the FA-50 being upgraded to Block 20+ with BVR capability, I don't think its going to have the same future upgrade potential and growth as the KFX.

But here's the thing, you really shouldn't substitute the F-35 with the KFX. The KFX is basically going to be late in this case, in 2030 while everyone is starting to fly 5th gens, the KFX which is a 4.5 gen fighter is probably going to only reach operational capability by then and we don't know when the supposedly 5th gen Block 2 or even Block 3 KFX is going to be developed considering manufacturing for Block 1 is only going start in 2026 if nothing goes wrong. Meanwhile, in the mid-2030's, you'll see European manufacturers are going to start to roll out 6th gen prototypes and developments like BAE's Tempest and Airbus's FCAS. So in this case KFX is going to be quite late in its development compared to others. So depending solely on KFX isn't only going to undermine our air power/sortie generation but also our overall capability in general when compared to others. Just look at ROKAF, they're still operating F-4's and F-5's simply because of the need to be able to generate a certain number of sorties and to complement their far more advanced KF-16's, F-15K's and F-35's. Meanwhile, in ROKAF, the KFX is meant to replace the F-4 and F-5 which is the lower tier fighter in their fleet and complement KF-16, F-35's and F-15's, so its obvious even ROKAF themselves doesn't see the KFX as a potential 5th gen or F-35 substitute and neither should we.

IMO, I support continuing KFX as a potential twin-engine for the 2030's, but not by sacrificing more necessary and needed acquisitions like the F-16V's which is our reliable workhorse for over 30 years and is required for our airpower generation as well as to face more pressing adversary and threats we're seeing up north.

So in this case, I wouldn't agree with people who only want solely depend on the KFX especially with its uncertainty coming from our side and its lack of capability for its targeted time frame as well as its lack of maturity which will take time. National prestige isn't worth it if you're sacrificing combat effectiveness and ability to generate power at the end of the day.

 

[Nike]

IMO, KFX is still a significant leap over the FA-50, you get a twin-engine fighter with indigenous AESA radar, US and EU armaments (including BVR) and probably what looks like lower RCS compared to other 4.5 gen fighters. Meanwhile, despite the FA-50 being upgraded to Block 20+ with BVR capability, I don't think its going to have the same future upgrade potential and growth as the KFX.

But here's the thing, you really shouldn't substitute the F-35 with the KFX. The KFX is basically going to be late in this case, in 2030 while everyone is starting to fly 5th gens, the KFX which is a 4.5 gen fighter is probably going to only reach operational capability by then and we don't know when the supposedly 5th gen Block 2 or even Block 3 KFX is going to be developed considering manufacturing for Block 1 is only going start in 2026 if nothing goes wrong. Meanwhile, in the mid-2030's, you'll see European manufacturers are going to start to roll out 6th gen prototypes and developments like BAE's Tempest and Airbus's FCAS. So in this case KFX is going to be quite late in its development compared to others. So depending solely on KFX isn't only going to undermine our air power/sortie generation but also our overall capability in general when compared to others. Just look at ROKAF, they're still operating F-4's and F-5's simply because of the need to be able to generate a certain number of sorties and to complement their far more advanced KF-16's, F-15K's and F-35's. Meanwhile, in ROKAF, the KFX is meant to replace the F-4 and F-5 which is the lower tier fighter in their fleet and complement KF-16, F-35's and F-15's, so its obvious even ROKAF themselves doesn't see the KFX as a potential 5th gen or F-35 substitute and neither should we.

IMO, I support continuing KFX as a potential twin-engine for the 2030's, but not by sacrificing more necessary and needed acquisitions like the F-16V's which is our reliable workhorse for over 30 years and is required for our airpower generation as well as to face more pressing adversary and threats we're seeing up north.

So in this case, I wouldn't agree with people who only want solely depend on the KFX especially with its uncertainty coming from our side and its lack of capability for its targeted time frame as well as its lack of maturity which will take time. National prestige isn't worth it if you're sacrificing combat effectiveness and ability to generate power at the end of the day.

The thing is we are still not looking how important to have more fighter platform to defending our large air space in first place and corelation between number and industrial demands. Indonesia only had around 33 F 16, 16 Su 27/30, 15 T/A 50 and 22/23Hawk 109/209. Thats too small and not enough demand to generate sub system production at homes. You should know why South Korean able to generate many private industry working in sub system components like Hanwa and Lig Next1 because they had large fleets serve as potential market for their own products. We don't have that, and now @Indos talking big about to produce indigenous fighter without even creating bigger demands of market from our own Armed Forces and creating the ecosystem for the industry to thrive first. South Korea importing large number of F 5 and F 16 secure their license production and let their own company to become contractor for components of their aircraft which numbered in hundreds. The experience they accumulated let them confidence to finish the KFX WITH OR WITHOUT Indonesia actually.

The other example is SAAB, without sufficient sub system components maker they are known as subject for original country Components maker when exporting their products like US and UK.

 

[Whizzack]

My main gripe with the KFX program is the fact that people are willing to sacrifice a stable workhorse in our inventory for an unproven design with limited advantage all for the sake of national prestige and egotism.

There's no such "facts".. it's just your assumption.. there are currently no plans to ditch your beloved almighty F-16s simply for the sake of KFX...

If anything the main reason for us joining the KFX program is best summarized as below :

Janes understands that at the end of 2019 the total number of PTDI technicians on the KF-X project in South Korea was about 100, with their work mainly focused on aircraft design and manufacturing processes.

We might just be a junior partner in this project, but this kind of practical experience and learning process is simply not something you can just buy off the shelf or by doing some minor offset work for an existing old design...

The South Koreans are a stubborn bunch of people... Out of necessity, I don't see them dropping this project anytime soon... and it's actually progressing quite nicely... So far most of their military projects has been successful and our cooperation with them has been fruitful..

And really, if we can plan on spending USD 6B - 7B for 24 Vipers and USD 2B for 8 Ospreys... we should have no problem investing in longer terms projects such as KFX that will further increase our technological know-how and strengthen our military-industrial cooperation with them..

It really is kind of shortsighted to think that this project is simply about national pride...

 

[Gen3115]

OK then keep importing weapon until Indonesia reach the year 2100. Did we ever learn the mistake of our ancestor in the past that only think about buying rifle and never think about making one ???? On the other hand there is Japanese with Meiji restoration that make Japanese can surpasses many western countries.

No one is saying we're going to import till forever, but sacrificing a more necessary short-term acquisition required for a more pressing need/threat for a program that still has uncertainty and lack of maturity as well as capability for its timeframe is not a good idea.

 

[acelaw]

in my opinion, south korea not brave enough to kick our a*s from KFX project, because we are the lucky charm for them. only us their Guinea pig for their arms product. entah bagaimana habis di jual ke kita, negara lain ikut beli juga.

 

[Gen3115]

in my opinion, south korea not brave enough to kick our a*s from KFX project, because we are the lucky charm for them. only us their Guinea pig for their arms product. entah bagaimana habis di jual ke kita, negara lain ikut beli juga.

IIRC and if i'm not wrong, the KFX cooperation agreement was based on an MoU, not an actual binding contract. If it was based on a contract, they could've enforced collateral which would motivate/force the Indonesian government to pay their share. Plus if its the Indonesian government that had to cancel, the cancellation fee is what they would be worried about, since it might be higher than our actual share.

And yea, its already obvious the whole reason South Korea let Indonesia into the project is simply because of justification and to easily market it. They don't need our money nor our know-how, we can see how they're progressing even without us.

 

[Gen3115]

And really, if we can plan on spending USD 6B - 7B for 24 Vipers and USD 2B for 8 Ospreys... we should have no problem investing in longer terms projects such as KFX that will further increase our technological know-how and strengthen our military-industrial cooperation with them..

I doubt its going to reach $6-7 billion unless we actually buy 32 fully new built F-16V's + upgrade of existing F-16C/D to V + huge load of armaments and spares like SA and Qatar. Since the latest news is we can only afford 24 + the F-16C/D upgrades + a number of parts and armaments to sustain its lifetime. Plus with the F-16 and Osprey purchase they're probably going to be bought through multi-year contract and those $6-7 billion and $2 billion for Vipers and Osprey's aren't just acquisition costs but also to sustain and maintain.

The problem is not whether we can afford KFX or not, the problem has always been government commitment and political will tbh

 

[Raduga]

the latest alman post about "advanced country" offering their used frigate .

most logical rumour list yet.
-La Fayette
-Type 23
-Anzac

Anzac have the most powerful sensor overall , the one that fitted with CEAFAR AESA radar would fitted well as our stopgap frigate waiting for iver to be done , and perhaps our pamen pati in TNI will be "Kepincut" with CEAFAR performance .

 

[kooppyyy]

IMO, KFX is still a significant leap over the FA-50, you get a twin-engine fighter with indigenous AESA radar, US and EU armaments (including BVR) and probably what looks like lower RCS compared to other 4.5 gen fighters. Meanwhile, despite the FA-50 being upgraded to Block 20+ with BVR capability, I don't think its going to have the same future upgrade potential and growth as the KFX.

But here's the thing, you really shouldn't substitute the F-35 with the KFX. The KFX is basically going to be late in this case, in 2030 while everyone is starting to fly 5th gens, the KFX which is a 4.5 gen fighter is probably going to only reach operational capability by then and we don't know when the supposedly 5th gen Block 2 or even Block 3 KFX is going to be developed considering manufacturing for Block 1 is only going start in 2026 if nothing goes wrong. Meanwhile, in the mid-2030's, you'll see European manufacturers are going to start to roll out 6th gen prototypes and developments like BAE's Tempest and Airbus's FCAS. So in this case KFX is going to be quite late in its development compared to others. So depending solely on KFX isn't only going to undermine our air power/sortie generation but also our overall capability in general when compared to others. Just look at ROKAF, they're still operating F-4's and F-5's simply because of the need to be able to generate a certain number of sorties and to complement their far more advanced KF-16's, F-15K's and F-35's. Meanwhile, in ROKAF, the KFX is meant to replace the F-4 and F-5 which is the lower tier fighter in their fleet and complement KF-16, F-35's and F-15's, so its obvious even ROKAF themselves doesn't see the KFX as a potential 5th gen or F-35 substitute and neither should we.

IMO, I support continuing KFX as a potential twin-engine for the 2030's, but not by sacrificing more necessary and needed acquisitions like the F-16V's which is our reliable workhorse for over 30 years and is required for our airpower generation as well as to face more pressing adversary and threats we're seeing up north.

So in this case, I wouldn't agree with people who only want solely depend on the KFX especially with its uncertainty coming from our side and its lack of capability for its targeted time frame as well as its lack of maturity which will take time. National prestige isn't worth it if you're sacrificing combat effectiveness and ability to generate power at the end of the day.

To be honest, I can see Chestnut's point, both F-16V & KFX is/going to be 4.5 gen fighter and the only difference is the F-16V is the more mature & proven platform out of the two. Other than because of hubris, it's a no brainer to emphasize our investment in more F-16 variant for our air force.

There's no such "facts".. it's just your assumption.. there are currently no plans to ditch your beloved almighty F-16s simply for the sake of KFX...

If anything the main reason for us joining the KFX program is best summarized as below :



We might just be a junior partner in this project, but this kind of practical experience and learning process is simply not something you can just buy off the shelf or by doing some minor offset work for an existing old design...

The South Koreans are a stubborn bunch of people... Out of necessity, I don't see them dropping this project anytime soon... and it's actually progressing quite nicely... So far most of their military projects has been successful and our cooperation with them has been fruitful.

And really, if we can plan on spending USD 6B - 7B for 24 Vipers and USD 2B for 8 Ospreys... we should have no problem investing in longer terms projects such as KFX that will further increase our technological know-how and strengthen our military-industrial cooperation with them..

It really is kind of shortsighted to think that this project is simply about national pride...

I'm afraid you might overestimate our own technological readiness level to be able to properly absorb and apply what have learned and will learn. Little benefits in teaching someone how to run when they can barely walk. Not to mention the vagueness in the project charter regarding ownership & IP means we may not get anything out of this project.

We are currently lacking in the intermediate industries to be able to naturally supports this kind of endeavour. We're better off join the F-35 program and become it's global supply-chain IMHO. I feel @Nike have said it best in the previous post,

The thing is we are still not looking how important to have more fighter platform to defending our large air space in first place and corelation between number and industrial demands. Indonesia only had around 33 F 16, 16 Su 27/30, 15 T/A 50 and 22/23Hawk 109/209. Thats too small and not enough demand to generate sub system production at homes. You should know why South Korean able to generate many private industry working in sub system components like Hanwa and Lig Next1 because they had large fleets serve as potential market for their own products. We don't have that, and now @Indos talking big about to produce indigenous fighter without even creating bigger demands of market from our own Armed Forces and creating the ecosystem for the industry to thrive first. South Korea importing large number of F 5 and F 16 secure their license production and let their own company to become contractor for components of their aircraft which numbered in hundreds. The experience they accumulated let them confidence to finish the KFX WITH OR WITHOUT Indonesia actually.

The other example is SAAB, without sufficient sub system components maker they are known as subject for original country Components maker when exporting their products like US and UK.

the latest alman post about "advanced country" offering their used frigate .

most logical rumour list yet.
-La Fayette
-Type 23
-Anzac

Anzac have the most powerful sensor overall , the one that fitted with CEAFAR AESA radar would fitted well as our stopgap frigate waiting for iver to be done , and perhaps our pamen pati in TNI will be "Kepincut" with CEAFAR performance .

Gotta be La Fayette, both Type 23 & ANZAC currently and just finished their respective MLU program. Also, CEAFAR while it's good, the whole system is pretty heavy and has poor redundancies in its current form I feel.

 

[Raduga]

Gotta be La Fayette, both Type 23 & ANZAC currently and just finished their respective MLU program. Also, CEAFAR while it's good, the whole system is pretty heavy and has poor redundancies in its current form I feel.

yeah i just noticed it

if it was la fayette , i don't think it was more capable than our current SIGMA 10514 .