Indonesia Defence Forum

[Raduga]

Osprey with TNI AD camo scheme by Bell
https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-boeing-v-22/idn

 

[NEKONEKO]

China and Indonesia have overlapping claims on maritime rights and interests in some parts of the South China Sea

We don't have any overlapping sea border with China or other claimant states, a rock in the middle of ocean won't have any EEZ.
China is so dead set to drag Indonesia into the conflict. Its like 'ga ada loe ga rame bro'.

Natuna islands in the other hand have significant population size, crops, fresh water, economic activity etc. So Indonesia have EEZ 200 nmi around there.

Cold war 2.0 will be different for us.

 

[Kansel]

Osprey with TNI AD camo scheme by Bell
https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-boeing-v-22/idn

What's happening so sudden LoL, apparently the prophecy was right i guess

 

[Gen3115]

Osprey with TNI AD camo scheme by Bell
https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-boeing-v-22/idn

weird offer, fits better with the Navy in my opinion, but also have to consider the operational cost of this thing

 

[Kansel]

weird offer, fits better with the Navy in my opinion, but also have to consider the operational cost of this thing

Perhaps, army want something like 160th SOAR and bell noticed that¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Ruhnama]

Osprey with TNI AD camo scheme by Bell
https://www.bellflight.com/products/bell-boeing-v-22/idn

It is good for army because it has longer range. For naval patrol also good or maybe for carrying kormar and can landing in lhd

 

[NEKONEKO]

I prefer that we operate chinook in large number for the army and marines.

naval patrol

No.

 

[Chestnut]

What's happening so sudden LoL, apparently the prophecy was right i guess

weird offer, fits better with the Navy in my opinion, but also have to consider the operational cost of this thing

It is good for army because it has longer range. For naval patrol also good or maybe for carrying kormar and can landing in lhd

I think I brought this up a long time ago. It's Bell's offer for an alternative for the Chinook procurement.

I'd say let them compete, either option is good. The Opsrey's issues have so far been worked out over the years. Although the Osprey has a higher operating cost per hour than the Chooks, it does has a larger range of capabilities. And with Bell putting the Osprey on the table, Boeing is likely going to offer a lot more kickbacks to try to win over Bell's clout at PTDI.

Competition is good for everyone. The free market provides boys.

This photo of Bu Susi riding in an Osprey came up awhile ago. I distinctively remember getting laughed at in the forums for saying that I have first hand info of Bell quietly offering the Osprey over the Chinook. Well who's laughing now?

 

[SgtGungHo]

Because french rarely embargoed us (?) Are french have emabrgoed us? But likely french will do that thing. Somone like rafale because TOT (katanya gtu), carry exocet and mica
(Maybe because people in here find "jalan tengah" not use russian or american but just buy french, kind


Still F15 is better for money and more common. It can used same engine with F16. So logically easier to maintain. Also there are many F15 outhere so if get embatgoed we can buy parts from blackmarket maybe.

Even France lacks the means to be totally independent of the U.S.

“It is true that we depend on this (U.S. International Traffic in Arms Regulations) mechanism: We are at the mercy of the Americans when our equipment is concerned,”

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...ked-by-a-us-regulation-and-france-is-over-it/

Unlike F-16 and some other Russian jets, there is a handful of countries that operate F-15 and they are very close allies of the US. I can assure you, none of them will defy the US and sell their F-15 parts to countries that are embargoed by the states.

 

[Kansel]

The Iver Huitfeldt class is a three-ship class of frigates that entered service with the Royal Danish Navy in 2011.
Indonesia Looking At Iver Huitfeldt-Class Frigate To Boost TNI-AL’s Blue Water Force
The Indonesian Government appears to be moving forward with a plan to procure two large displacement frigates for the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL). The frigates would be based on the Danish Iver Huitfeldt-class and built at local shipyard PT PAL.
Xavier Vavasseur 09 Jun 2020

Following the Natuna standoff with China back in January this year (in which dozens of Chinese vessels were fishing in Indonesia’s Exclusive Economic Zone), Indonesia recognizes the lack of oceangoing vessels for TNI-AL and BAKAMLA (the Indonesian Maritime Security Agency). As a consequence, plans were mooted for the procurement of large displacement vessels based on Danish designs. Local media makes mention of this, quoting a Defense Minister statement made as early as January 17.


In February, an Indonesian defense delegation visited Denmark and toured the Danish Navy Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate Niels Juel. The delegation was briefed by Odense Maritime Technology (OMT) and Naval Team Denmark. Pictures of the visit were shared on social media by the Indonesian Embassy in Denmark.


Lastly, according to local media, the deputy minister of defense said in March that Indonesia’s PT PAL was tasked to develop a design for 2 ships over 5 years, for Rp1.1 trillion (or USD720 million) in collaboration with Denmark, for TNI-AL.

Picture: Indonesia Embassy in Denmark

Contacted by Naval News for comment, Naval Team Denmark’s Managing Director and former Chief of the Danish Navy, said:

Naval Team Denmark can confirm that Indonesia – amongst other nations – have shown interest for the Danish Iver Huitfeldt frigates. However, I am not able to comment on your specific questions.


Rear Admiral (ret.) Nils Wang

We also reached out to Collin Koh, research fellow at the Maritime Security Programme, S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore:


Naval News – Collin, how would two large frigate be enough to deter China in the SCS ? Wouldn’t the procurement of smaller vessels (like additional PKR or even Ocean Going OPVs) be more usefull because for the same budget Indonesia would get more hulls ?

Collin Koh – Two large frigates aren’t enough to cover the Natuna waters, where Chinese incursions are observed to take place often. At best, at any point of time, 1 out of the pair of these new frigates would be on station, albeit for a finite period of time and provided proper maintenance, repairs and overhaul schedules are adhered to. Of course, with the same budget, more but smaller OPVs could be acquired. However, I would surmise a few reasons behind the quest for the Iver Huitfeldt class. The first is that the Indonesians are looking at a larger major surface combatant beyond the PKR that is based on the SIGMA class, which is classified a light frigate. The second is the unique mission modular concept offered for the Danish design, which the Indonesians could be interested in adapting for future warships. It would appear that the Indonesians are keen on commonalities between the navy and BAKAMLA, which could be made possible with a robust modular concept. The third, which I believe needs to be seriously looked into, is whether the Indonesians could have been not so satisfied with the PKR programme, and whether this has to do with the local shipbuilders’ relationship with Damen. Again, this point needs to be explored.


Naval News – The Iver Huitfeldt is quite a more complex (and larger) ship compared to the PKR. Do you trust that local shipyard PT Pal would have no issues building those ships locally ?

Collin Koh – And to add that the Iver Huitfeldt is larger as well, and represents a wholly new design that PT PAL has to deal with. With proper tech transfer under the guidance of their Danish counterparts, and of course with Jakarta’s commitment to the programme, it’s possible for PT PAL to overcome initial problems of the learning curve and gradually become able to build the ships indigenously. We can take example from PT PAL’s collaboration with DSME on license construction of submarines. There were initial hiccups, especially over tech transfer, but these were later overcome and the Indonesians eventually managed to construct the third Nagapasa-class submarine, and became Southeast Asia’s first country to build submarines locally.


For the record, Iver Huitfeldt-class is the parent design for the future Type 31 frigate of the Royal Navy. A variant of the class was also being proposed for Singapore’s MRCV requirement. The Iver Huitfeldt-class frigates of the Danish Navy have conducted several Carrier Strike Group deployments.


About Iver Huitfeld-class

The Iver Huitfeldt-class is a 138 meters long anti-air warfare frigates of 6600 tonnes displacement, built by Odense Staalskibsvaerft for the Royal Danish Navy. Three have been built and all of them were commissionned in 2011.


The hull design of the Iver Huitfeldt-class is derived from the Absalon-class. The 32-cell Mk. 41 vertical missile launcher and 4 Standard Flex container positions amidships makes this platform a highly capable AAW frigate. The armament further includes two 76 mm OTO Melara guns forward and one 35 mm CIWS (Millennium) gun aft. They can carry an MH-60 helicopter.


The Standard Flex concept is a combination of standard platforms and different exchangeable weapon and system modules to match different missions or roles. Sensors and systems common to all roles are permanently fitted. As a truly “plug and play” concept it offers unique operational flexibility and exceptional lifelong logistic and financial advantages.


Mains specifications

• Displacement: 6 600 tonnes (full load)
• Length: 138m
• Beam: 19.75m
• Draft: 5.3m
• Propulsion: 4 MTU 8000 20V M70 diesel engines. 2 shafts, CODAD
• Speed: 28 knots
• Range: 9 000 nautical miles @15 knots
• Crew: 117 (total accommodation 165)
• Weapons: 4 × Mk 41 VLS with up to 32 SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles ; 2 × Mk 56 VLS with up to 24 RIM-162 ESSM ; Harpoon block SSM; 1 × 35mm CIWS ; 2× OTO Melara 76 mm; 2 × dual MU90 Impact ASW torpedo launchers

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...ss-frigate-to-boost-tni-als-blue-water-force/

 

[Chestnut]

Even France lacks the means to be totally independent of the U.S.

“It is true that we depend on this (U.S. International Traffic in Arms Regulations) mechanism: We are at the mercy of the Americans when our equipment is concerned,”

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...ked-by-a-us-regulation-and-france-is-over-it/

Unlike F-16 and some other Russian jets, there is a handful of countries that operate F-15 and they are very close allies of the US. I can assure you, none of them will defy the US and sell their F-15 parts to countries that are embargoed by the states.

Keep in mind the Dutch wouldn't sell us the F-16 parts without some informal approval from the US. Instead of saying that F-16 parts can be plentifully found, it's more accurate to say that the US has a vested strategic interest in us to warrant out a complete embargo of arms. Even during the supposed embargo under the Ford administration, 90% of equipment used during the Invasion of East Timor were US supplied.

 

[SgtGungHo]

Keep in mind the Dutch wouldn't sell us the F-16 parts without some informal approval from the US. Instead of saying that F-16 parts can be plentifully found, it's more accurate to say that the US has a vested strategic interest in us to warrant out a complete embargo of arms. Even during the supposed embargo under the Ford administration, 90% of equipment used during the Invasion of East Timor were US supplied.

F-15 and F-16 aren't the same. Over 4,600 F-16 fighter jets have been built and many of them have been manufactured under the license on non-American soils. With 25+ countries operating the aircraft including Venezuela, yes some F-16 parts will be available at blackmarket. However, there is really a limited number of F-15 (or F-15E) operators and the US tightly controls the supply of F-15 parts. The US has a vested strategic interest of F-15 technologies not getting leaked to other countries (read China and Russia).

 

[Alex898]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...ss-frigate-to-boost-tni-als-blue-water-force/[/QUOTE]
with this kind of news, i think we can safely assume that the project official anouncement by government is just a matter of time ?
anyway, this Collin Koh suspected that its possible that our navy does not feel satisfied with the PKR program. thats interesting, since a while ago alman post about PKR reorder.

 

[NEKONEKO]

The Iver Huitfeldt class is a three-ship class of frigates that entered service with the Royal Danish Navy in 2011.
Indonesia Looking At Iver Huitfeldt-Class Frigate To Boost TNI-AL’s Blue Water Force
The Indonesian Government appears to be moving forward with a plan to procure two large displacement frigates for the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL). The frigates would be based on the Danish Iver Huitfeldt-class and built at local shipyard PT PAL.
Xavier Vavasseur 09 Jun 2020

Following the Natuna standoff with China back in January this year (in which dozens of Chinese vessels were fishing in Indonesia’s Exclusive Economic Zone), Indonesia recognizes the lack of oceangoing vessels for TNI-AL and BAKAMLA (the Indonesian Maritime Security Agency). As a consequence, plans were mooted for the procurement of large displacement vessels based on Danish designs. Local media makes mention of this, quoting a Defense Minister statement made as early as January 17.


In February, an Indonesian defense delegation visited Denmark and toured the Danish Navy Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate Niels Juel. The delegation was briefed by Odense Maritime Technology (OMT) and Naval Team Denmark. Pictures of the visit were shared on social media by the Indonesian Embassy in Denmark.


Lastly, according to local media, the deputy minister of defense said in March that Indonesia’s PT PAL was tasked to develop a design for 2 ships over 5 years, for Rp1.1 trillion (or USD720 million) in collaboration with Denmark, for TNI-AL.

Picture: Indonesia Embassy in Denmark

Contacted by Naval News for comment, Naval Team Denmark’s Managing Director and former Chief of the Danish Navy, said:

Naval Team Denmark can confirm that Indonesia – amongst other nations – have shown interest for the Danish Iver Huitfeldt frigates. However, I am not able to comment on your specific questions.


Rear Admiral (ret.) Nils Wang

We also reached out to Collin Koh, research fellow at the Maritime Security Programme, S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore:


Naval News – Collin, how would two large frigate be enough to deter China in the SCS ? Wouldn’t the procurement of smaller vessels (like additional PKR or even Ocean Going OPVs) be more usefull because for the same budget Indonesia would get more hulls ?

Collin Koh – Two large frigates aren’t enough to cover the Natuna waters, where Chinese incursions are observed to take place often. At best, at any point of time, 1 out of the pair of these new frigates would be on station, albeit for a finite period of time and provided proper maintenance, repairs and overhaul schedules are adhered to. Of course, with the same budget, more but smaller OPVs could be acquired. However, I would surmise a few reasons behind the quest for the Iver Huitfeldt class. The first is that the Indonesians are looking at a larger major surface combatant beyond the PKR that is based on the SIGMA class, which is classified a light frigate. The second is the unique mission modular concept offered for the Danish design, which the Indonesians could be interested in adapting for future warships. It would appear that the Indonesians are keen on commonalities between the navy and BAKAMLA, which could be made possible with a robust modular concept. The third, which I believe needs to be seriously looked into, is whether the Indonesians could have been not so satisfied with the PKR programme, and whether this has to do with the local shipbuilders’ relationship with Damen. Again, this point needs to be explored.


Naval News – The Iver Huitfeldt is quite a more complex (and larger) ship compared to the PKR. Do you trust that local shipyard PT Pal would have no issues building those ships locally ?

Collin Koh – And to add that the Iver Huitfeldt is larger as well, and represents a wholly new design that PT PAL has to deal with. With proper tech transfer under the guidance of their Danish counterparts, and of course with Jakarta’s commitment to the programme, it’s possible for PT PAL to overcome initial problems of the learning curve and gradually become able to build the ships indigenously. We can take example from PT PAL’s collaboration with DSME on license construction of submarines. There were initial hiccups, especially over tech transfer, but these were later overcome and the Indonesians eventually managed to construct the third Nagapasa-class submarine, and became Southeast Asia’s first country to build submarines locally.


For the record, Iver Huitfeldt-class is the parent design for the future Type 31 frigate of the Royal Navy. A variant of the class was also being proposed for Singapore’s MRCV requirement. The Iver Huitfeldt-class frigates of the Danish Navy have conducted several Carrier Strike Group deployments.


About Iver Huitfeld-class

The Iver Huitfeldt-class is a 138 meters long anti-air warfare frigates of 6600 tonnes displacement, built by Odense Staalskibsvaerft for the Royal Danish Navy. Three have been built and all of them were commissionned in 2011.


The hull design of the Iver Huitfeldt-class is derived from the Absalon-class. The 32-cell Mk. 41 vertical missile launcher and 4 Standard Flex container positions amidships makes this platform a highly capable AAW frigate. The armament further includes two 76 mm OTO Melara guns forward and one 35 mm CIWS (Millennium) gun aft. They can carry an MH-60 helicopter.


The Standard Flex concept is a combination of standard platforms and different exchangeable weapon and system modules to match different missions or roles. Sensors and systems common to all roles are permanently fitted. As a truly “plug and play” concept it offers unique operational flexibility and exceptional lifelong logistic and financial advantages.


Mains specifications

• Displacement: 6 600 tonnes (full load)
• Length: 138m
• Beam: 19.75m
• Draft: 5.3m
• Propulsion: 4 MTU 8000 20V M70 diesel engines. 2 shafts, CODAD
• Speed: 28 knots
• Range: 9 000 nautical miles @15 knots
• Crew: 117 (total accommodation 165)
• Weapons: 4 × Mk 41 VLS with up to 32 SM-2 IIIA surface-to-air missiles ; 2 × Mk 56 VLS with up to 24 RIM-162 ESSM ; Harpoon block SSM; 1 × 35mm CIWS ; 2× OTO Melara 76 mm; 2 × dual MU90 Impact ASW torpedo launchers

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...ss-frigate-to-boost-tni-als-blue-water-force/

They didn't write anything about the OPV from Denmark.

Let's not assume that Indonesia will only get 2 Iver, we could build more later after MEF 3.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...ss-frigate-to-boost-tni-als-blue-water-force/
with this kind of news, i think we can safely assume that the project official anouncement by government is just a matter of time ?
anyway, this Collin Koh suspected that its possible that our navy does not feel satisfied with the PKR program. thats interesting, since a while ago alman post about PKR reorder.

Welcome.
The Danish guy still can't give any confirmation, I guess there still some hurdle (negotiation regarding the ship or its sub-system, considering that it will use many sub-sytem from different countries that need approval for purchase).

 

[Chestnut]

F-15 and F-16 aren't the same. Over 4,600 F-16 fighter jets have been built and many of them have been manufactured under the license on non-American soils. With 25+ countries operating the aircraft including Venezuela, yes some F-16 parts will be available at blackmarket. However, there is really a limited number of F-15 (or F-15E) operators and the US tightly controls the supply of F-15 parts. The US has a vested strategic interest of F-15 technologies not getting leaked to other countries (read China and Russia).

And I'm not saying it isn't, but the reality is that the United States has historically gave Indonesia a lot of leeway in terms of realpolitik. From the initial financial aid to the Soekarno regime, the Act of Free Choice, Operation Lotus, the 2005 embargo, the US has had a large hand in keeping Indonesia well within their circle through kickbacks and special treatment.

Also, purchasing F-16 parts from the black market is not as easy as you think. Very few entities in the world are willing to incur the wrath of the US Department of State when it comes to international trade. Rather it's more logical to say through Occum's Razor that the US simply gave an informal nod to the Netherlands in allowing the sale to go through.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...ss-frigate-to-boost-tni-als-blue-water-force/

with this kind of news, i think we can safely assume that the project official anouncement by government is just a matter of time ?
anyway, this Collin Koh suspected that its possible that our navy does not feel satisfied with the PKR program. thats interesting, since a while ago alman post about PKR reorder.[/QUOTE]
I think they simply wanted something with a better AAW complement/fits bigger missiles than the MICA.