Indonesia Defence Forum

[Whizzack]

Air Platforms
Russia rebuts claims that Indonesia has dropped Su-35 fighter procurement plans
Gabriel Dominguez, London and Dmitry Fediushko, Moscow - Jane's Defence Weekly
16 March 2020

Another article countering the Bloomberg article..
MILITARY

• Asia-Pacific , Aircraft and Anti-Aircraft

Why Indonesia Likely Hasn’t Cancelled its Su-35 Purchase Plans: U.S. Reports Remain Dubious With No Conformation From Jakarta or Moscow

March-17th-2020

Su-35 '4++ Generation' Heavyweight Fighters

The U.S. based Bloomberg news agency has reported that Indonesia has terminated plans to aquire Su-35 Flanker-E ‘4++ generation’ heavyweight air superiority fighters from Russia, which would provide the country’s Air Force with by far its most sophisticated and capable combat aircraft. The purchase follows Indonesian acquisitions of Su-27 and Su-30 fighters in the 1990s which are derived from the same original Flanker airframe design, with Jakarta moving to purchase Russian arms in response to an U.S. arms embargo and a resulting perceived lack of American reliability as an arms provider. This and the fact that no other party was willing to provide Indonesia with high end heavyweight fighter jets ultimately led the country to become one of the first clients for elite Flanker aircraft.

Indonesian Air Force Su-27 and Su-30 Heavyweight Fighters

While Bloomberg’s report, citing anonymous sources, has been widely re-reported by Western outlets, it has not been confirmed by any official parties on either side of the deal. Dmitry Shugaev, director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, stated on March 17th regarding the unverified American report: “There is no official refusal, no one sent us any papers in this regard and did not verbally informed us, so I think this is poorly verified information. We hope that this contract will be implemented, especially since Indonesia is interested in acquiring this aircraft.” This would hardly be the first time that Bloomberg made a false report regarding a major Russia arms sale, and in 2019 the outlet reported that Russia had refused an Iranian request to purchase S-400 long range hypersonic surface to air missile batteries. The report again cited anonymous sources. This was later strongly refuted by both parties, with Russia stating that it had received no request from Tehran to buy the system but was willing to provide it if required.

Su-35 Demonstrates Manoeuvrability with Three Dimensional Thrust Vectoring

While the United States has threatened Indonesia with economic sanctions should it purchase the Su-35 fighter, part of a broader policy to undermine Russian arms exports and expand market share for more expensive Western armaments, the Su-35 remains a very difficult fighter for Indonesia to replace. The aircraft’s similarity with the older Su-27 and Su-30 fighters mains it is compatible with much the same maintenance infrastructure and weapons systems, and that pilots can very easily transfer between the classes. With China not offering heavyweight fighters for export, the only other option for Indonesia to aquire such aircraft would be to purchase he F-15EX from the United States. As Indonesia is already reliant on American F-16s for its lightweight fighter units, acquiring the F-15 would create an excessive reliance on American systems which the Air Force has specifically been trying to avoid since the 1990s. The F-15 is not only a much more costly aircraft, but it would create additional maintenance and training difficulties for Indonesia and lacks many of the Su-35’s advanced capabilities - from thrust vectoring engines and side looking radars to a radar cross section reducing profile and access to 400km range hypersonic air to air missiles.

F-16 Lightweight Fighter and Su-27 Heavyweight Fighters

Jakarta has pledged not to terminate the Su-35 deal despite American threats, and while it may take time the deal is highly likely to go through - if anything to avoid losing face. The capabilities and cost effectiveness of alternative fighters from countries other than the U.S. or Russia have been throughly underwhelming. A likely option is that Indonesia will purchase F-16V fighters from the U.S. to placate Washington and avoid sanctions, and while the F-16 has been in service for over 42 years this conservative upgrade of the lightweight jet is being sold for over 50% more unit than the much more capable Su-35. Such a political purchase of American arms on Indonesia’s part appears the most likely path for Jakarta to avoid sanctions and still acquire the Russian heavyweight fighters it requires.

Su-35 '4++ Generation' Heavyweight Fighters

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...tcm7a9fcLn5IEQMatyCwWmMzWUaU_DICD4YDPsdsW4c84

 

[Var Dracon]

Demak Sultanate is long before the rise of Mataram islam kingdom, the Demak Sultanate is styled themselves after Majapahit lineage and they are largely Maritime based forces. What destroying Javanese Maritime culture and industrial prowess is the conquest of Mataram kingdom for the all Java realm. They burnt and razed coastal cities, banning the building of ships and cannons and implemented total warfare against all of Surabaya princes and their allies. They detached themselves from Majapahit style lineage who can be traced from king Airlangga and made their own style dynasty.

Not really. The decline of the use of cannon in Java is arguably happened after the expulsion of Majapahit remains, about 1527-1574. In 1513, Pati Unus' fleet sailed to attack Portuguese Malacca "with much artillery made in Java, for the Javanese are skilled in founding and casting, and in all works in iron, over and above what they have in India". In contrast, Queen of Kalianyamat attack to Portuguese Malacca in 1574 which composed of over 70 to 80 jongs, is only equipped "with very little artillery and firearms".

The defeat of Surabaya princes and their coastal cities ally at the hands of Central Java agriculture based Mataram Kingdom sealed the Javanese people ability to produce Warships and the banning of production cannon and firearms further deteriorate the industrial ability of Java as a whole.

In fact, Sultan Agung of Mataram after 1620 A.D. tried to re-industrialize Java, by manufacturing cannons and muskets to challenge the Dutch in Batavia. Mataram had the capacity of manufacturing 800 muskets in a period of 3 months. Mataram destroyed Javanese maritime culture, that's true, but they also tried to re-industrialize Java.

 

[NEKONEKO]

Literatur kuno kita yang ada, bercampur mitologi dan fantasi, atau dibikin tembang dll modelnya jadi seperti dongeng. Berasa seperti mahabarata dan ramayana, mungkin karena memang pengaruh dari kebudayaan India.

Adakah yang seperti De re militari dan art of war? Yang berasa lebih nyata dan kurang dongengnya, tidak harus juga berhubungan dengan strategi militer, bukunya lebih berasa 'teknis', btw ga banyak literatur kuno dari kerajaan kerajaan kita yang survive dan ditemukan hingga abad ini, sad

 

[Raduga]

Not really. The decline of the use of cannon in Java is arguably happened after the expulsion of Majapahit remains, about 1527-1574. In 1513, Pati Unus' fleet sailed to attack Portuguese Malacca "with much artillery made in Java, for the Javanese are skilled in founding and casting, and in all works in iron, over and above what they have in India". In contrast, Queen of Kalianyamat attack to Portuguese Malacca in 1574 which composed of over 70 to 80 jongs, is only equipped "with very little artillery and firearms".



In fact, Sultan Agung of Mataram after 1620 A.D. tried to re-industrialize Java, by manufacturing cannons and muskets to challenge the Dutch in Batavia. Mataram had the capacity of manufacturing 800 muskets in a period of 3 months. Mataram destroyed Javanese maritime culture, that's true, but they also tried to re-industrialize Java.

do you have any info or picture of what kind muskets / flintlock we have back in the day ?

 

[Var Dracon]

Literatur kuno kita yang ada, bercampur mitologi dan fantasi, atau dibikin tembang dll modelnya jadi seperti dongeng. Berasa seperti mahabarata dan ramayana, mungkin karena memang pengaruh dari kebudayaan India.

Adakah yang seperti De re militari dan art of war? Yang berasa lebih nyata dan kurang dongengnya, tidak harus juga berhubungan dengan strategi militer, bukunya lebih berasa 'teknis', btw ga banyak literatur kuno dari kerajaan kerajaan kita yang survive dan ditemukan hingga abad ini, sad

Ada yang hampir teknis, namanya manuskrip ilmu bedil, itu menjelaskan penggunaan istinggar Minangkabau. Tapi nampaknya manuskrip ini sekarang ada di Malaysia.

do you have any info or picture of what kind muskets / flintlock we have back in the day ?

I have none.
Contemporary (dari zaman itu, bukan zaman sekarang) pictures of weapon and ships made by native people is rare. I have read that the European people visiting Java mentions painting, engraving, and reliefs in local buildings depicting various scenes, from hunting to warfare, but these does not seem to have survived until the present day. In fact, most pictures about Indonesian history (like the painting of cetbang cannon, jong ships and war scenes) comes from European sources.

 

[Indos]

Are development hampered by korona?

As I said earlier, design work would have already been completed this year as September last year they have already done Critical Design Review meeting with 70 % design work is completed. So it is not a surprise if the Indonesian engineers that majority are designers have backed home now at this March 2020.

Covid 19 disease are possibly the main cause of why we are not contributing any engineers for production phase for first prototype as the traveling between two nations are prohibited just recently. Alman Helvas also said that the condition just happen recently, so it may suggest the engineers leaving have high possibility to have connection with the recent travel ban. There is one person on his twitter respond questioning why other Indonesian working for many companies in South Korea are still there, it maybe due to our PTDI engineers who are considered as strategic Indonesia human power so will be treated differently with other Indonesian worker who are not working in our strategic defense companies.

 

[Nike]

Ada yang hampir teknis, namanya manuskrip ilmu bedil, itu menjelaskan penggunaan istinggar Minangkabau. Tapi nampaknya manuskrip ini sekarang ada di Malaysia.



I have none.
Contemporary (dari zaman itu, bukan zaman sekarang) pictures of weapon and ships made by native people is rare. I have read that the European people visiting Java mentions painting, engraving, and reliefs in local buildings depicting various scenes, from hunting to warfare, but these does not seem to have survived until the present day. In fact, most pictures about Indonesian history (like the painting of cetbang cannon, jong ships and war scenes) comes from European sources.

Dont know why Japan which is most of their culture and building based on woods and paper able to safe most of their long time crucial history records, even back then during 8th century and tales and war record from Genpei War still exist. Meanwhile in Indonesia we cant preserve record from much later Majapahit era and even Demak or Mataram islam kingdom.

 

[GraveDigger388]

Dont know why Japan which is most of their culture and building based on woods and paper able to safe most of their long time crucial history records, even back then during 8th century and tales and war record from Genpei War still exist. Meanwhile in Indonesia we cant preserve record from much later Majapahit era and even Demak or Mataram islam kingdom.

My guess is that our ancestors prefer to record their stories by the means of relics, building ornaments, and the like. But perhaps (VERY BIG PERHAPS, since this is in no way an educated guess), owing to the lack of preservation efforts by the following generations, many are lost, had succumbed to the elements, razed, etc.

Note to take this with A WHOLE CUP of salt, since I'm far from educated on the matter.

 

[umigami]

Air Platforms
Russia rebuts claims that Indonesia has dropped Su-35 fighter procurement plans
Gabriel Dominguez, London and Dmitry Fediushko, Moscow - Jane's Defence Weekly
16 March 2020
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Moscow said on 16 March that Indonesia’s planned procurement of Russian-made Su-35 fighter aircraft is “still active”. Source: Sukhoi
The Indonesian Air Force's (Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara: TNI-AU's) planned procurement of Sukhoi Su-35 'Flanker-E' multirole combat aircraft from Russia is still "active", Dmitry Shugayev, the director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS), said on 16 March, denying media reports that Jakarta, under US pressure, has dropped a deal to buy 11 of the Russian-made fighters.

"There is no official cancellation of the [Indonesian] order [for the Su-35s]," Shugayev told the Russia 24 news channel. "We haven't received any papers regarding the issue and haven't been told about it."

Shugayev said Indonesia is still interested in acquiring the Su-35s, adding, "We hope that the contract will be implemented." No further details were provided.

Bloomberg had quoted an unnamed official "familiar with the matter" on 12 March as saying that Jakarta had recently decided against moving ahead with the plan to procure the 11 fighter aircraft for about USD1.1 billion.

The official was also quoted as saying that, as recently as February, Washington had also pressured Indonesia into walking away from talks with China to procure several naval patrol vessels for about USD200 million, adding that the moves "illustrate how the US is having some success - at times by using financial and economic levers - in deterring countries from dealing with Russia and China, which the [Donald] Trump administration has identified as the biggest threats to US national security".

Jane's reported in November 2019 that Indonesia's procurement of the Su-35s had stalled due to several factors, including the Indonesian presidential election held in April of that year, funding and countertrade issues, and concerns in Jakarta about US legislation - notably the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) - under which Washington seeks to penalise defence customers of Russia

Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to Jane's unrivalled data and insight, learn more about our subscription options at janes.com/products

Another article countering the Bloomberg article..
MILITARY

• Asia-Pacific , Aircraft and Anti-Aircraft

Why Indonesia Likely Hasn’t Cancelled its Su-35 Purchase Plans: U.S. Reports Remain Dubious With No Conformation From Jakarta or Moscow

March-17th-2020

Su-35 '4++ Generation' Heavyweight Fighters

The U.S. based Bloomberg news agency has reported that Indonesia has terminated plans to aquire Su-35 Flanker-E ‘4++ generation’ heavyweight air superiority fighters from Russia, which would provide the country’s Air Force with by far its most sophisticated and capable combat aircraft. The purchase follows Indonesian acquisitions of Su-27 and Su-30 fighters in the 1990s which are derived from the same original Flanker airframe design, with Jakarta moving to purchase Russian arms in response to an U.S. arms embargo and a resulting perceived lack of American reliability as an arms provider. This and the fact that no other party was willing to provide Indonesia with high end heavyweight fighter jets ultimately led the country to become one of the first clients for elite Flanker aircraft.

Indonesian Air Force Su-27 and Su-30 Heavyweight Fighters

While Bloomberg’s report, citing anonymous sources, has been widely re-reported by Western outlets, it has not been confirmed by any official parties on either side of the deal. Dmitry Shugaev, director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, stated on March 17th regarding the unverified American report: “There is no official refusal, no one sent us any papers in this regard and did not verbally informed us, so I think this is poorly verified information. We hope that this contract will be implemented, especially since Indonesia is interested in acquiring this aircraft.” This would hardly be the first time that Bloomberg made a false report regarding a major Russia arms sale, and in 2019 the outlet reported that Russia had refused an Iranian request to purchase S-400 long range hypersonic surface to air missile batteries. The report again cited anonymous sources. This was later strongly refuted by both parties, with Russia stating that it had received no request from Tehran to buy the system but was willing to provide it if required.

Su-35 Demonstrates Manoeuvrability with Three Dimensional Thrust Vectoring

While the United States has threatened Indonesia with economic sanctions should it purchase the Su-35 fighter, part of a broader policy to undermine Russian arms exports and expand market share for more expensive Western armaments, the Su-35 remains a very difficult fighter for Indonesia to replace. The aircraft’s similarity with the older Su-27 and Su-30 fighters mains it is compatible with much the same maintenance infrastructure and weapons systems, and that pilots can very easily transfer between the classes. With China not offering heavyweight fighters for export, the only other option for Indonesia to aquire such aircraft would be to purchase he F-15EX from the United States. As Indonesia is already reliant on American F-16s for its lightweight fighter units, acquiring the F-15 would create an excessive reliance on American systems which the Air Force has specifically been trying to avoid since the 1990s. The F-15 is not only a much more costly aircraft, but it would create additional maintenance and training difficulties for Indonesia and lacks many of the Su-35’s advanced capabilities - from thrust vectoring engines and side looking radars to a radar cross section reducing profile and access to 400km range hypersonic air to air missiles.

F-16 Lightweight Fighter and Su-27 Heavyweight Fighters

Jakarta has pledged not to terminate the Su-35 deal despite American threats, and while it may take time the deal is highly likely to go through - if anything to avoid losing face. The capabilities and cost effectiveness of alternative fighters from countries other than the U.S. or Russia have been throughly underwhelming. A likely option is that Indonesia will purchase F-16V fighters from the U.S. to placate Washington and avoid sanctions, and while the F-16 has been in service for over 42 years this conservative upgrade of the lightweight jet is being sold for over 50% more unit than the much more capable Su-35. Such a political purchase of American arms on Indonesia’s part appears the most likely path for Jakarta to avoid sanctions and still acquire the Russian heavyweight fighters it requires.

Su-35 '4++ Generation' Heavyweight Fighters

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...tcm7a9fcLn5IEQMatyCwWmMzWUaU_DICD4YDPsdsW4c84

Bloomberg's article which was written by Indonesian reporter came from a leak from someone in our MoD. Both articles above are "sangkalan" from Moscow (they said no official cancelation yet, It doesn't mean It won't come later though). Still no official statement from us. So Let's wait until April.

It seems Prabowo is gone for sometimes now. He didn't do rapat online with jokowi either. I'm pretty sure this is related to Working Groups alman helvas talking about. There is some big discussion going on at MoD right now.

 

[Raduga]

 

[V3NOM12]

Bloomberg's article which was written by Indonesian reporter came from a leak from someone in our MoD. Both articles above are "sangkalan" from Moscow (they said no official cancelation yet, It doesn't mean It won't come later though). Still no official statement from us. So Let's wait until April.

It seems Prabowo is gone for sometimes now. He didn't do rapat online with jokowi either. I'm pretty sure this is related to Working Groups alman helvas talking about. There is some big discussion going on at MoD right now.

Ok lets pretend that bloomberg is right, but why we have to buy patrol ship from Cina. Our local (non bumn) industri can do the job very well in that matter

 

[NEKONEKO]

Ok lets pretend that bloomberg is right, but why we have to buy patrol ship from Cina. Our local (non bumn) industri can do the job very well in that matter

My guess is that its some kind of ship that's is not being offered by our ship building industries, and some Chinese company have the product that we need and its already in production and its a proven design, thus our institution prefer to buy it from China rather than contacting local company and ask them to design new ship.
If its just a simple patrol ship for polair or for customs its okay.

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Polri ready to order new support vessels from PT PAL

tindak lanjut arahan Presiden Republik Indonesia Bapak Joko Widodo saat Rapat Terbatas Tanggal 27/01/2020 mengenai alat utama sistem persenjataan. Komitmen pemerintah untuk mengutamakan industri dalam negeri dalam pemenuhan alutsista nasional.
Its seems that they are not serious about this.

 

[V3NOM12]

My guess is that its some kind of ship that's is not being offered by our ship building industries, and some Chinese company have the product that we need and its already in production and its a proven design, thus our institution prefer to buy it from China rather than contacting local company and ask them to design new ship.
If its just a simple patrol ship for polair or for customs its okay.


tindak lanjut arahan Presiden Republik Indonesia Bapak Joko Widodo saat Rapat Terbatas Tanggal 27/01/2020 mengenai alat utama sistem persenjataan. Komitmen pemerintah untuk mengutamakan industri dalam negeri dalam pemenuhan alutsista nasional.
Its seems that they are not serious about this.

If its a simple patrol ship then the more we have to buy it from our local company. If we want to buy something from outside then it should be the high tech ship that we can not produce it by ourself.

 

[Indos]

My guess is that its some kind of ship that's is not being offered by our ship building industries, and some Chinese company have the product that we need and its already in production and its a proven design, thus our institution prefer to buy it from China rather than contacting local company and ask them to design new ship.
If its just a simple patrol ship for polair or for customs its okay.

If its a simple patrol ship then the more we have to buy it from our local company. If we want to buy something from outside then it should be the high tech ship that we can not produce it by ourself.

I believe the reporter just made a wrong report about the ships. As far as I know we never have any history buying any Chinese ship even since Soeharto period.

 

[Raduga]

I believe the reporter just made a wrong report about the ships. As far as I know we never have any history buying any Chinese ship even since Soeharto period.

probably they mixed up with malaysia who sought LMS patrol ship from chinese company.

anyway alman said the bid for KRI Usman Harun Future SAM still ongoing , i really hoping even though the VL MICA was the strongest candidate , CAMM-ER (italian sea ceptor variants) for more range , would give our bung tomo atleast medium range local area air defense .

"European guided weapons house MBDA (Hall D, Stand D210) is pushing its new Sea Ceptor local area anti-air missile system as a potential retrofit for the Indonesian Navy’s three Bung Tomo-class corvettes, writes Richard Scott."