Indonesia Defence Forum

[UMNOPutra]

Congrate to Indonesia ...This is also a good trend for the region to counter and balance of PRC at SCS..

We hope you can succeed to realize to purchase your Iver class without any flip-flop as you did to your SU-35....

 

[HellFireIndo]

Congrate to Indonesia ...This is also a good trend for the region to counter and balance of PRC at SCS..

We hope you can succeed to realize to purchase your Iver class without any flip-flop as you did to your SU-35....

See that big red "X" button at the upper right corner of your screen? click that

 

[HellFireIndo]

Yes but we need more capital ships with patrol capability to guard our vast ocean. Dude we used to be the unchallenged naval power in SEA now even vietnam and myanmar are catching up. We should at least be twice more powerful than our neer peer neighbor in terms of capital ships(with the exception of SG of course)


I think we should differentiate between frontline state of the art frigate like iver huidfledt with patrol corvette/frigate like Martadinata's. Both cant be in the same league. One is an expensive but very capable hull the other one is a workhorse for the navy, still quite advanced but much more economical to operate. Personally i think we need more updated DPN class or opv's to replace our parchim fleet.

Ummm...my thing is that economic size and leverage = key. No matter how these neighbors trying to flex anything on the region, it's simply the fact that Indonesian economy is still more than twice bigger than the second largest economy in the region, and that speaks a lot even with a lax tax enforcement.

Economic power sustain all other power, as people would provide diplomatic favor out of economic necessity, and economy buys and sustains military organization and operation, so having money = having power.

People seems to be catching up simply because we are a rabbit sleeping under a tree and not wanting to rush anything, a bad habit ofc, but the key is the willingness and priority, which both are not currently inside the mind of the current Incumbent. As of now, there's very little incentive to rapidly develop the Military, as we already have the second largest budget in ASEAN, and positioned far south out of the trouble, and that multiplied by the fact that we are an island nation, the sea provides a sense of security and isolation that kinda spoils us, made us thought no one will be at our doorstep.

But here is my viewpoint : Indonesia is to ASEAN, is kinda like how the US is to NATO, but ofc the economic and military figure in comparison is not as much. The problem (or not?) is that The US have Military-Industrial Complex controlling their government's policy, it constantly hungers for war, influence abroad and military production, motivating the US government and Americans with reason to produce weapons and wage war abroad. The parallel cultural aspect of us, is that we both have Island mentality, of having a narrow and deluded viewpoint to the rest of the world due to our isolation by the sea, we (US and Indonesia) sees the world in a stereotypical viewpoint, VietKongs, Commies, Imperialist, Poor, Rich, Surrender Monkeys, Enemy, Rival, Friendly and so on..

That made us less engaged with anyone out there in a really "intimate" relation the way the French and the English been rival for nearly a millenium, we just see countries as either "trouble" or "opportunity", "good" or "bad", rarely as a nation we put a close-up interest in anyone, heck we even banned Military Alliance, cementing the fact that we don't give a shit to anyone, and anyone should return the same favor. But deep down, most Indonesian (and the American also), secretly judged everyone with our own standard, but refused to even listen to the other person, only believing in what their own mind's tells what's right.

But i still saw this as a nice parallel of "what we could be", and frankly there's already some nice doctrine and strategy proven to be effective by the Americans, starting with the "speak softly and carry a big stick" doctrine AKA Gunboat Diplomacy, this one is what we should be aiming to achieve in the Ideal Essential Force, of combining economic significance, diplomatic lobby and military domination over the region, to finally cement our position as The First and Foremost Among Equals, which i believe is the key to peace and neutrality over ASEAN, where its' countries would have a quasi-authority among it's own members (Indonesia) that would prevent any third party (outside Great Powers) from ever completely influencing an ASEAN nation for it's own behalf, the same way the US check-and-balance the Americas with it's Gunboat Diplomacy and the Monroe Doctrine.

 

[Nike]

Ummm...my thing is that economic size and leverage = key. No matter how these neighbors trying to flex anything on the region, it's simply the fact that Indonesian economy is still more than twice bigger than the second largest economy in the region, and that speaks a lot even with a lax tax enforcement.

Economic power sustain all other power, as people would provide diplomatic favor out of economic necessity, and economy buys and sustains military organization and operation, so having money = having power.

People seems to be catching up simply because we are a rabbit sleeping under a tree and not wanting to rush anything, a bad habit ofc, but the key is the willingness and priority, which both are not currently inside the mind of the current Incumbent. As of now, there's very little incentive to rapidly develop the Military, as we already have the second largest budget in ASEAN, and positioned far south out of the trouble, and that multiplied by the fact that we are an island nation, the sea provides a sense of security and isolation that kinda spoils us, made us thought no one will be at our doorstep.

But here is my viewpoint : Indonesia is to ASEAN, is kinda like how the US is to NATO, but ofc the economic and military figure in comparison is not as much. The problem (or not?) is that The US have Military-Industrial Complex controlling their government's policy, it constantly hungers for war, influence abroad and military production, motivating the US government and Americans with reason to produce weapons and wage war abroad. The parallel cultural aspect of us, is that we both have Island mentality, of having a narrow and deluded viewpoint to the rest of the world due to our isolation by the sea, we (US and Indonesia) sees the world in a stereotypical viewpoint, VietKongs, Commies, Imperialist, Poor, Rich, Surrender Monkeys, Enemy, Rival, Friendly and so on..

That made us less engaged with anyone out there in a really "intimate" relation the way the French and the English been rival for nearly a millenium, we just see countries as either "trouble" or "opportunity", "good" or "bad", rarely as a nation we put a close-up interest in anyone, heck we even banned Military Alliance, cementing the fact that we don't give a shit to anyone, and anyone should return the same favor. But deep down, most Indonesian (and the American also), secretly judged everyone with our own standard, but refused to even listen to the other person, only believing in what their own mind's tells what's right.

But i still saw this as a nice parallel of "what we could be", and frankly there's already some nice doctrine and strategy proven to be effective by the Americans, starting with the "speak softly and carry a big stick" doctrine AKA Gunboat Diplomacy, this one is what we should be aiming to achieve in the Ideal Essential Force, of combining economic significance, diplomatic lobby and military domination over the region, to finally cement our position and The First and Foremost Among Equals, which i believe is the key to peace and neutrality over ASEAN, where its' countries would have a quasi-authority among it's own member (Indonesia) that would prevent any third party (outside Great Powers) from ever completely influencing an ASEAN nation for it's own behalf, the same way the Americans check-and-balance the Americas with it's Gunboat Diplomacy.

Lol, the American in their first 100 years of history is much introvert as us today, they are at the time already having big economy and having large population backed with large industry but with very narrow minded and close to seclution policy. Their openning operation in Japan, and war against Spain is just to secure their economy interest (in which they abandoned Japan as soon as Perry fleets depart from Yokohama and not be seen again for decades). Their love for democracy is as great as our founding father who use their declaration as template of ours. Indonesia need baptism of fire to open our eyes, much the same when the sinking of Lusitania in WWI along with attacks on Pearl in WWII opened the eyes of American people if a great country as big as them cant leave the international politics and leave them to the mercy of others to decide.

Well if it is upon myself to decide this country course, to pursue economy development is a must and priority number one. Military can be build to serve our economy might and ensure all what we had built is protected and people feeling secured to have a strong military. As long as the world order is stay in the current phase we can free riding to pursue our economy goals. I am all for Indonesia to pursue blue Navy power and strong Air force policy at long term to ensure our independence and Freedom as we had been blessed by gods with such country and natural fortess

 

[striver44]

Ummm...my thing is that economic size and leverage = key. No matter how these neighbors trying to flex anything on the region, it's simply the fact that Indonesian economy is still more than twice bigger than the second largest economy in the region, and that speaks a lot even with a lax tax enforcement.

Economic power sustain all other power, as people would provide diplomatic favor out of economic necessity, and economy buys and sustains military organization and operation, so having money = having power.

People seems to be catching up simply because we are a rabbit sleeping under a tree and not wanting to rush anything, a bad habit ofc, but the key is the willingness and priority, which both are not currently inside the mind of the current Incumbent. As of now, there's very little incentive to rapidly develop the Military, as we already have the second largest budget in ASEAN, and positioned far south out of the trouble, and that multiplied by the fact that we are an island nation, the sea provides a sense of security and isolation that kinda spoils us, made us thought no one will be at our doorstep.

But here is my viewpoint : Indonesia is to ASEAN, is kinda like how the US is to NATO, but ofc the economic and military figure in comparison is not as much. The problem (or not?) is that The US have Military-Industrial Complex controlling their government's policy, it constantly hungers for war, influence abroad and military production, motivating the US government and Americans with reason to produce weapons and wage war abroad. The parallel cultural aspect of us, is that we both have Island mentality, of having a narrow and deluded viewpoint to the rest of the world due to our isolation by the sea, we (US and Indonesia) sees the world in a stereotypical viewpoint, VietKongs, Commies, Imperialist, Poor, Rich, Surrender Monkeys, Enemy, Rival, Friendly and so on..

That made us less engaged with anyone out there in a really "intimate" relation the way the French and the English been rival for nearly a millenium, we just see countries as either "trouble" or "opportunity", "good" or "bad", rarely as a nation we put a close-up interest in anyone, heck we even banned Military Alliance, cementing the fact that we don't give a shit to anyone, and anyone should return the same favor. But deep down, most Indonesian (and the American also), secretly judged everyone with our own standard, but refused to even listen to the other person, only believing in what their own mind's tells what's right.

But i still saw this as a nice parallel of "what we could be", and frankly there's already some nice doctrine and strategy proven to be effective by the Americans, starting with the "speak softly and carry a big stick" doctrine AKA Gunboat Diplomacy, this one is what we should be aiming to achieve in the Ideal Essential Force, of combining economic significance, diplomatic lobby and military domination over the region, to finally cement our position as The First and Foremost Among Equals, which i believe is the key to peace and neutrality over ASEAN, where its' countries would have a quasi-authority among it's own members (Indonesia) that would prevent any third party (outside Great Powers) from ever completely influencing an ASEAN nation for it's own behalf, the same way the US check-and-balance the Americas with it's Gunboat Diplomacy and the Monroe Doctrine.

Growing economic power demand the increase of defence needs of a country. If we are talking about a third world country in Africa, sure i would be happy if ones even own a functioning armed forces.
We are talking here a $1 trillion economy country, a G20 members which happened to be sorrounded by troublesome neigbours. One in the north who thinks they owned the entire sea and the other one in the south which had some kind of worrisome mentality towards us. Adding to the fact that our neighbor once riverine navy had turned into/transforming into a full fledged war navy with frigates, submarines,which happen not to be friendly with our fishermen/apparatus in our northern gate .

We could not rest our security in the false premise on some Kind of ASEAN stability utopia. ASEAN IS NOT NATO. First ASEAN is a political/economic/cultural bloc while NATO is a military alliance, second Indonesia is not what the US is for NATO, NATO is dependant on the US for its mere existance while most ASEAN countries are independent in its politics , Indonesia has no say in what policy of singapore.vietnam., thailand etc. ASEAN members are one within the US orbit and the other already inside China's grip. NATO meanwhile had a common enemy to be united.thus there is no such thing as ASEAN brotherhood, and one should not depend on it.

Next is our geography, which dictate that we MUST have a top tier Navy and air force. Yes t provide us with a sense of security, but it didnt provide security. Being an island nation is a curse for the military, as mobility is severely hampered and startegic maneuvers by armies arw hampered by bodies of water which makes the navy even to be more vital. Lets say the navy is destroyed then we will see our armies turned into pockets and picked one by one by future aggressors.

Having a powerful and ready armed forces (especially the Navy and Air force), thus give us more card in a game of regional geopolitics. Soft power is when you have a **** ton of money to throw around your neighbors to atleast buy their allegiance, which in our case is not. So its hard power like the military that gave the goverment leverage in regional and international politics aswell as careful startegic planning of geopolitics.

 

[Nike]

Growing economic power demand the increase of defence needs of a country. If we are talking about a third world country in Africa, sure i would be happy if ones even own a functioning armed forces.
We are talking here a $1 trillion economy country, a G20 members which happened to be sorrounded by troublesome neigbours. One in the north who thinks they owned the entire sea and the other one in the south which had some kind of worrisome mentality towards us. Adding to the fact that our neighbor once riverine navy had turned into/transforming into a full fledged war navy with frigates, submarines,which happen not to be friendly with our fishermen/apparatus in our northern gate .

We could not rest our security in the false premise on some Kind of ASEAN stability utopia. ASEAN IS NOT NATO. First ASEAN is a political/economic/cultural bloc while NATO is a military alliance, second Indonesia is not what the US is for NATO, NATO is dependant on the US for its mere existance while most ASEAN countries are independent in its politics , Indonesia has no say in what policy of singapore.vietnam., thailand etc. ASEAN members are one within the US orbit and the other already inside China's grip. NATO meanwhile had a common enemy to be united.thus there is no such thing as ASEAN brotherhood, and one should not depend on it.

Next is our geography, which dictate that we MUST have a top tier Navy and air force. Yes t provide us with a sense of security, but it didnt provide security. Being an island nation is a curse for the military, as mobility is severely hampered and startegic maneuvers by armies arw hampered by bodies of water which makes the navy even to be more vital. Lets say the navy is destroyed then we will see our armies turned into pockets and picked one by one by future aggressors.

Having a powerful and ready armed forces (especially the Navy and Air force), thus give us more card in a game of regional geopolitics. Soft power is when you have a **** ton of money to throw around your neighbors to atleast buy their allegiance, which in our case is not. So its hard power like the military that gave the goverment leverage in regional and international politics aswell as careful startegic planning of geopolitics.

In this era, to create a strong armed forces one need a strong economy, a healthy and educated population backed by a ridiculous strong industry and logistic infrastructure support. One cant depend upon false security provided by the available of shining toys but not backed by educated yet brave soldiers to manned those toys and logistick to support them along with tonnes of money. Saudi is a case, along with Emirates and other middle east countries as they keep bought the lattest toys but when they toss them into real Battlefield against peer opponent they had been badly bruished.

When in the region we lie is in peacefull condition albeit in a falsehood as your said, i would prefer them to increase my country economy stature and muscle first, build the necessary infrastructure in which most can served dual purpose either in peace or war (you should taking notices, what this admin build is mostly serve dual purpose either for military purpose or civic like airport, ports, railway, tollways, highways, border roads, border and custom base equipped with military garnisun, electricity toward border area even in remote PNG RI border, dam and irigation) , and evenmore we are currently doing that in pace, scale and efficiency more greater even than India in which got more budget than us. Thus the government trying to spread the center of industry and markets (along with logistick to support them) toward out of Java. What it means? It means a lot, it means we can di fighting in and around Papua as hard as when fighting in Java with all the logistick chain support. Just taking a look back when we are prepared Trikora, it look like we are fighting in an alien lands, foreign to soldiers from Java or even from Sulawesi, throwing in middle of primitive jungle. But today with economy and infrastructure development there our fighter like F16 or Su 30 can do refueling and simple maintenance in Biak, before doing show of force even above Papua New Guinea sky as usual just like what we do above Java or Sumatra airspace.

I would not dare to say i am not in support toward military building, but it had to have a meaningful purpose, to protect our people and economy is one of them. It will harm us more if we do like what Pakistan or Indian do instead.

 

[Kansel]

We can get other alternative like Denel Ukhomto IR VLS missiles, using RBS 15 instead Exocet and SAAB FCS radar and Naval radar though. There is many choices out there as long as it can bring benefit to us.

Damn, I won't do that to my navy lol,but if u see the situations right now it most likely we'll take american arms (nato for specific) and the diplomacy wont take long time since US senior senator just visited us its a green light to purchase high restrictions US arsenal for us tho

Anyone getting triggered by this brand new RKHUP and another pasal-pasal bullshit?

 

[Kansel]

Nay, the budget is there and available. But we still not decided (although lean toward itver class based design)

Our budget restrained neighbor still struggle to rise fund for more Gowind class, they kinda stuck with the three lay on their Shipyard (with only one is ready to test the water after so many years)



We will stuck with two PKR, period. For the heavy frigates we will have them as the true replacement for van Speijk class

Well with our current budget and situation iver is a sure tho, Denmark already visited pt pal and cooperate fir shipbuilding (you know what's that mean)

 

[Nike]

caracal is in Papua

https://twitter.com/x/status/1173469274859433984

 

[striver44]

In this era, to create a strong armed forces one need a strong economy, a healthy and educated population backed by a ridiculous strong industry and logistic infrastructure support. One cant depend upon false security provided by the available of shining toys but not backed by educated yet brave soldiers to manned those toys and logistick to support them along with tonnes of money. Saudi is a case, along with Emirates and other middle east countries as they keep bought the lattest toys but when they toss them into real Battlefield against peer opponent they had been badly bruished.

When in the region we lie is in peacefull condition albeit in a falsehood as your said, i would prefer them to increase my country economy stature and muscle first, build the necessary infrastructure in which most can served dual purpose either in peace or war (you should taking notices, what this admin build is mostly serve dual purpose either for military purpose or civic like airport, ports, railway, tollways, highways, border roads, border and custom base equipped with military garnisun, electricity toward border area even in remote PNG RI border, dam and irigation) , and evenmore we are currently doing that in pace, scale and efficiency more greater even than India in which got more budget than us. Thus the government trying to spread the center of industry and markets (along with logistick to support them) toward out of Java. What it means? It means a lot, it means we can di fighting in and around Papua as hard as when fighting in Java with all the logistick chain support. Just taking a look back when we are prepared Trikora, it look like we are fighting in an alien lands, foreign to soldiers from Java or even from Sulawesi, throwing in middle of primitive jungle. But today with economy and infrastructure development there our fighter like F16 or Su 30 can do refueling and simple maintenance in Biak, before doing show of force even above Papua New Guinea sky as usual just like what we do above Java or Sumatra airspace.

I would not dare to say i am not in support toward military building, but it had to have a meaningful purpose, to protect our people and economy is one of them. It will harm us more if we do like what Pakistan or Indian do instead.

the debacle that middle eastern military faced today is a result of poor leadership combined with over reliance on one's allies and technology and the use of unskilled personell, basically what we see are donkeys leading a bunch of donkeys. we saw the lack of initiative in of emirati forces in aden, the saudis in the northern mountains despite having the latest toys, so it's mainly about the quality of the armed forces not because of logistical constraints like you said or even under educated men, emirati's and saudis enjoy the best the US has to offer in terms of logistics and fuel so this failure is mainly organizational leadership failure which is endemic in ALL ARAB militaries . even militaries with lack of logistics like idlib militants or even ISIS show that when combine with efficient C2 and motivated men could make a difference in battlefield.
The infrastructure you mention will have 0 (zero) effect for the overall mobility of the army, if we talk regional mobility (such as tran java movement of material and arms ) yes maybe we can do it efficiently, but what about inter island transport????? without the adequate air and naval umbrella our men are dead meat in the water. so Im not exagerating when i say that the AF and NAVY should be given priorities with the best money can buy, I mean come on, a huge fleet of f16's,awacs,tankers, and AAW frigate will not increase regional tensions the way nuclear does.

So im all in for the development and equipping of the armed forces but not towards militaristic society, but ratehr a fully professional fighting oriented armed forces which to be a professional arme forces the TNI should be under civillian control,

 

[Gundala]

Well Politics stability, sustainable economic growth, military. These are 3 things one country in every part of the world is aiming at, including us. Those 3 are corelated to each other as well as contradict each other in a way. For example; building military with a cost of economic growth or vice versa, political stability in "pemerataan pendapatan" and vice versa, Totalitarian for speedy growth/stability with the cost of human right index vice versa. See the dilemma here?

Now do we have to worry about neighbour having better ships/fighters? Yes and no. Imho no, why? Invisible hand in marketing system can be apply in balance of power in region. If one country surpass others heavily they will have tendency to slow it down but still maintain overall advantage (Regional Asean). Why? they still need economic growth. Thats why the purpose of our military development is to balance the power (mengimbangi). With interconnection of economic relation it is unlikely this region will attack one another in full scale war. Not to mention having 2-4 heavy frigate can make one country dominate others? it is far more complex than that.

So what to do? As others said here, the aim is to become economic giant with sustainable economic growth and complex industrial systems that can support either economy and military while still maintaining Political stability along the way. There are better news then having the new frigate or fighters if we look at our defense from Holistic approach such as this news.

http://bumn.go.id/barata/berita/1-M...rno-Resmikan-Workshop-Heavy-Machining-Center-

Quote: "
Workshop yang dibangun dengan dana Penyertaan Modal Negara (PMN ) itu juga dilengkapi fasilitas mesin CNC bending untuk material baja dengan ketebalan 120 milimeter dengan kapasitas terbesar di Indonesia yang diharapkan bisa dimanfaatkan bersama PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) untuk pengerjaan fabrikasi kapal selam.

Selain itu, workshop HMC juga akan digunakan untuk area fabrikasi dan assembly produk-produk konstruksi bervolume tinggi, seperti Pressure Vessel, Komponen Energi Terbarukan (Wind Power), Bullet Tank, Komponen/Body Kapal Selam, Crane Pelabuhan, Kiln, dan lainnya."

As we all see we are going on the right path. It wont be easy, there will always be a challange, detour might be needed to adjust our way point but in the end since the begining of our MEF systems our economic and defense have found its way. I am proud of it tho perbaikan is still needed but to me we are now "tersesat di jalan yang benar".

 

[barjo]

Well Politics stability, sustainable economic growth, military. These are 3 things one country in every part of the world is aiming at, including us. Those 3 are corelated to each other as well as contradict each other in a way. For example; building military with a cost of economic growth or vice versa, political stability in "pemerataan pendapatan" and vice versa, Totalitarian for speedy growth/stability with the cost of human right index vice versa. See the dilemma here?

Now do we have to worry about neighbour having better ships/fighters? Yes and no. Imho no, why? Invisible hand in marketing system can be apply in balance of power in region. If one country surpass others heavily they will have tendency to slow it down but still maintain overall advantage (Regional Asean). Why? they still need economic growth. Thats why the purpose of our military development is to balance the power (mengimbangi). With interconnection of economic relation it is unlikely the this region will attack one another in full scale war. Not to mention having 2-4 heavy frigate can make one country dominate others? it is far more complex than that.

So what to do? As others sad here, the aim is to become economic giant with sustainable economic growth and complex industrial systems that can support either economy and military while still maintaining Political stability along the way. There are better news then having the new frigate or fighters if we look at our defense from Holistic approach such as this news.

http://bumn.go.id/barata/berita/1-M...rno-Resmikan-Workshop-Heavy-Machining-Center-

Quote: "
Workshop yang dibangun dengan dana Penyertaan Modal Negara (PMN ) itu juga dilengkapi fasilitas mesin CNC bending untuk material baja dengan ketebalan 120 milimeter dengan kapasitas terbesar di Indonesia yang diharapkan bisa dimanfaatkan bersama PT PAL Indonesia (Persero) untuk pengerjaan fabrikasi kapal selam.

Selain itu, workshop HMC juga akan digunakan untuk area fabrikasi dan assembly produk-produk konstruksi bervolume tinggi, seperti Pressure Vessel, Komponen Energi Terbarukan (Wind Power), Bullet Tank, Komponen/Body Kapal Selam, Crane Pelabuhan, Kiln, dan lainnya."

As we all see we are going on the right path. It wont be easy, there will always be a challange, detour might be needed to adjust our way point but in the end since the begining of our MEF systems our economic and defense have found its way. I am proud of it tho perbaikan is still needed but to me we are now "tersesat di jalan yang benar".

The may have bigger surface fleet (tetangga) but we have larger undersea hunter, we cant match all the our neighbourh surface fleet number but atleast we can match them in the deep

 

[Kucing itu imut]

basically what we see are donkeys leading a bunch of donkeys.

Yes, indeed. It's basically because of rampant KKN. Arab Saudi and it's neighbors weren't countries run with meritocracy. Family relationships is all you need to become a high profile figure in the military, not because of competency.

The royalty and their retainers got lots of family members but only one who can ascend the throne. Guess where the rest will go to? Yes, military. In other words, the military is a playground for children of royalty.

Incompetence leaderships coupled with rigid bureaucracy, any changes in battlefield will make them difficult to keep up with battlefield developments.

And you know the results.

 

[Whizzack]

Damn, I won't do that to my navy lol,but if u see the situations right now it most likely we'll take american arms (nato for specific) and the diplomacy wont take long time since US senior senator just visited us its a green light to purchase high restrictions US arsenal for us tho

Anyone getting triggered by this brand new RKHUP and another pasal-pasal bullshit?

Considering that our navy has always been European centric in their alutsista (missiles, cms, radar, hull, etc), it's actually rather extraordinary if they were to suddenly switch to American naval alutsista... it's possible, but seems unlikely in the short term... even Chinese naval subsystems is probably more likely (unfortunately)...

And yeah this new RKUHP is dangerous, it's basically going to criminalize a lot of people, especially the part where every sexual activity out of marriage will be outlawed... at the very least this law can be used as 'bancakan' to blackmail people... It's strange that no one seems to care about this though.. it's basically an invasion of our privacy by the state..

 

[Kansel]

Considering that our navy has always been European centric in their alutsista (missiles, cms, radar, hull, etc), it's actually rather extraordinary if they were to suddenly switch to American naval alutsista... it's possible, but seems unlikely in the short term... even Chinese naval subsystems is probably more likely (unfortunately)...

And yeah this new RKUHP is dangerous, it's basically going to criminalize a lot of people, especially the part where every sexual activity out of marriage will be outlawed... at the very least this law can be used as 'bancakan' to blackmail people... It's strange that no one seems to care about this though.. it's basically an invasion of our privacy by the state..

Its still nato compatible so not a really surprise the reason why I'm really confident why we will purchase massive american arms "embargo sawit" from EU, just look at it 32 viper with possibility of 16 more,aim&amraam,kc 46 have higher rank in tender rather than a330 mrtt i heard rumors that aewc and mpa is leaning towards boeing too

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Why we're still hoping for C17 lol the production line has been shutdowned tho but if there's a chance to procure that we should then