Indonesia Aerospace Forum

[AlohanAkua]

Thanks for the translation buddy.....So yes it has larger than C -103 design. And yes, several days ago there is confirmation that the government will continue the program but they still want to renegotiate. There is parliament backing on the program so I am still optimistic that Indonesia is still in.

Can you give me the link in Korea please ?

Can't find that specific article sorry, in fact had to paste that translation from a previous post I made. I can give you this article that covers a lot of similar ground: http://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/1S0ZX8CNSD

Also, I've heard Indonesia is seeking to renegotiate certain terms of the agreement, would you know more about that?

Edit: Ah, found the og article! Same publication http://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/1S0TIC8G6S/GE05

 

[Indos]

Can't find that specific article sorry, in fact had to paste that translation from a previous post I made. I can give you this article that covers a lot of similar ground: http://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/1S0ZX8CNSD

Also, I've heard Indonesia is seeking to renegotiate certain terms of the agreement, would you know more about that?

Edit: Ah, found the og article! Same publication http://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/1S0TIC8G6S/GE05

Thanks for the link,

Regarding the renegotiation what I know is that Indonesian side cannot have certain technology and dont have the right to export the plane, so the renegotiation will be focusing on those things. Talking about export right, I think Indonesia want to have export right in South East Asia region.

And this is from Jane: "He also confirmed Indonesia’s access to related technologies had been restricted due to export controls applied by the US government." https://www.janes.com/article/79727/indonesia-wants-to-renegotiate-kfx-fighter-project

 

[AlohanAkua]

Thanks for the link,

Regarding the renegotiation what I know is that Indonesian side cannot have certain technology and dont have the right to export the plane, so the renegotiation will be focusing on those things. Talking about export right, I think Indonesia want to have export right in South East Asia region.

And this is from Jane: "He also confirmed Indonesia’s access to related technologies had been restricted due to export controls applied by the US government." https://www.janes.com/article/79727/indonesia-wants-to-renegotiate-kfx-fighter-project

Thanks for the insight. Yeah, heard about US resistance to ToT; LM had to withhold 4 of the 25 technologies in the f-35 offset deal, but that means they did give 21. Honestly that might be tough, I don't see the US budging.

In terms of export, I also don't see SoKor giving up those rights either, certainly not for 20% burden. It was because SoKor wanted to retain all rights that the deal w/ Turkey fell thru, who agreed to 40% and were probly willing to go 50/50, but insisted on full ToT & export.

Hmm, trying to be as objective/3rd party as possible, what I picture happening is:
- As per agreement, Indonesia gets one of the 1st batch of prototypes
- Indonesia license assembles 60 IF-Xs (and more as they require)
- PT Dirgantara (correct name?) assembles a certain % of parts for IF-X

Renegotiation may do the following (just my guesses):
- The % of parts produced in Indonesia increases, particularly those parts that most require repair/replacement, so Indonesia is more self-sufficient
- If economics make sense (cost-savings even w/ shipping, quality assured), Indonesia produces those certain parts for KF-X also, becoming a contractor for the entire project not just IF-X, financial benefit to recoup investment
- Indonesia becomes licensed repair/maintenance center for the SE Asia region

This is the wildcard:
- Non-US ToT that gets Indonesia closer to indigenously developing a light jet trainer akin to the KAI T-50, after which they progress as they are able

Well, those are my thoughts, cannot back them up w/ sources. Fingers crossed that things go relatively smoothly

 

[Indos]

Thanks for the insight. Yeah, heard about US resistance to ToT; LM had to withhold 4 of the 25 technologies in the f-35 offset deal, but that means they did give 21. Honestly that might be tough, I don't see the US budging.

In terms of export, I also don't see SoKor giving up those rights either, certainly not for 20% burden. It was because SoKor wanted to retain all rights that the deal w/ Turkey fell thru, who agreed to 40% and were probly willing to go 50/50, but insisted on full ToT & export.

Hmm, trying to be as objective/3rd party as possible, what I picture happening is:
- As per agreement, Indonesia gets one of the 1st batch of prototypes
- Indonesia license assembles 60 IF-Xs (and more as they require)
- PT Dirgantara (correct name?) assembles a certain % of parts for IF-X

Renegotiation may do the following (just my guesses):
- The % of parts produced in Indonesia increases, particularly those parts that most require repair/replacement, so Indonesia is more self-sufficient
- If economics make sense (cost-savings even w/ shipping, quality assured), Indonesia produces those certain parts for KF-X also, becoming a contractor for the entire project not just IF-X, financial benefit to recoup investment
- Indonesia becomes licensed repair/maintenance center for the SE Asia region

This is the wildcard:
- Non-US ToT that gets Indonesia closer to indigenously developing a light jet trainer akin to the KAI T-50, after which they progress as they are able

Well, those are my thoughts, cannot back them up w/ sources. Fingers crossed that things go relatively smoothly

As I heard from Indonesian side, Indonesia will produce some wings part and bottom part for KFX/IFX so it will be for all KFX/IFX fighters, not just for IFX.

We contribute 20 % financially and 30 % design engineers, beside that we promise to buy 50 fighters. I think we deserve more than just assembling and make some parts. Export right is something that is stressed by our Minister of Defense. If we dont get export right, we should get more TOT then.

Luckily with all of the problem arise, we still manage to finish primary (basic) design phase and now are heading to detail design phase. I hope the program can be successful and our relationship getting stronger

Here the article talking about why Indonesia renegotiating @AlohanAkua

Is South Korea’s future fighter jet partnership with Indonesia falling apart?
By: Jeff Jeong   May 7
KF-X fighter jet development partnership between South Korea and Indonesia is in tatters, according to defense sources in South Korea and Indonesian media reports.

On May 1, Indonesia’s Antara news agency reported the Indonesian Defence Ministry is renegotiating the joint fighter development program.

“The renegotiation is necessary to make clear Indonesia’s gain from the program, as the project would financed with fund from the state budget,” ministerial spokesman Brig. Gen. Totok Sugiharto was quoted as saying.

Totok said Indonesia may neither sell the IF-X aircraft to other countries nor locally produce some components due to contract restrictions.

He added his country sees no future for cooperation, partly due to U.S. intervention that is restricting research that would help produce the aircraft, according to the news agency. He did note, however, that he hopes the joint program will continue.

Earlier, the prospect of Jakarta’s termination of the IF-X participation rose after the Indonesian government failed to pay some $130 million of its contribution, which was due in December. About 80 Indonesian workers taking part in IF-X development and production returned home earlier this year, stoking speculation that something was awry.

An engineer with Korea Aerospace Industries, or KAI, said Indonesian engineers dispatched to South Korea had difficulty studying and researching key KF-X technologies.

“Frankly, the Indonesian delegation was restricted from accessing many part of KF-X technologies and studies, particularly from the ones regarding the U.S.,” the engineer told Defense News, speaking on condition of anonymity. “Given Indonesia foots one-fifth of the KF-X development costs, it was reasonable in some sense that Indonesian engineers could feel cramped about technical advantages through the joint program.”

Full article in here

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...jet-partnership-with-indonesia-falling-apart/

 

[AlohanAkua]

As I heard from Indonesian side, Indonesia will produce some wings part and bottom part for KFX/IFX so it will be for all KFX/IFX fighters, not just for IFX.

We contribute 20 % financially and 30 % design engineers, beside that we promise to buy 50 fighters. I think we deserve more than just assembling and make some parts. Export right is something that is stressed by our Minister of Defense. If we dont get export right, we should get more TOT then.

Luckily with all of the problem arise, we still manage to finish primary (basic) design phase and now are heading to detail design phase. I hope the program can be successful and our relationship getting stronger

Ah, did not know about the wings/underside, or about 30% of engineers (only heard 80 of them in SK), so good to know (btw would you have a source?).

The export issue may be a non-starter, but Indonesia may very well get more ToT, if for no other reason than we can expect the final project cost to be higher than projected now. Initial estimate was $8 billion US; now last I heard, its closer to $15 billion.

Block 1 is not stealth, just low-RCS w/ "future-proofing" of the airframe for blocks 2/3, so costs are lower than straight-up stealth development. But gremlins always pop up in testing, real-world issues that could not be predicted in simulation, so I can easily see the pricetag passing $20 billion. And Indonesia would still be responsible for 20% of it

Indonesian desire for renegotiation is understandable, considering the financial risk. Ultimately I don't think whatever terms are settled on will be vastly different from the initial contract signed, because it is still a contract, but for the sake of the partnership I can see SK making some more concessions, in what areas would be up to negotiators.

Edit: Yeah, I read about that when it came out; its kind of a fluid situation, but I think things have improved since then (except about US ToT, that hasn't changed). And would you have a source about the wings/underside?

 

[Indos]

Ah, did not know about the wings/underside, or about 30% of engineers (only heard 80 of them in SK), so good to know (btw would you have a source?).

The export issue may be a non-starter, but Indonesia may very well get more ToT, if for no other reason than we can expect the final project cost to be higher than projected now. Initial estimate was $8 billion US; now last I heard, its closer to $15 billion.

Block 1 is not stealth, just low-RCS w/ "future-proofing" of the airframe for blocks 2/3, so costs are lower than straight-up stealth development. But gremlins always pop up in testing, real-world issues that could not be predicted in simulation, so I can easily see the pricetag passing $20 billion. And Indonesia would still be responsible for 20% of it

Indonesian desire for renegotiation is understandable, considering the financial risk. Ultimately I don't think whatever terms are settled on will be vastly different from the initial contract signed, because it is still a contract, but for the sake of the partnership I can see SK making some more concessions, in what areas would be up to negotiators.

Edit: Yeah, I read about that when it came out; its kind of a fluid situation, but I think things have improved since then (except about US ToT, that hasn't changed). And would you have a source about the wings/underside?

Here are news talking about Indonesian engineers and KFX/IFX part made in Indonesia in CNN Indonesia :

News:

Dalam pembuatan prototipe pesawat tempur multiperan itu, menurut Kepala Badan Penelitian dan Pengembangan Kementerian Pertahanan Anne Kusmayati, PTDI akan membuat sayap, penguat di bagian bawah sayap, dan ekor.

Pengerjaan jet tempur KF-X/IF-X akan dipusatkan di Sacheon, Provinsi Gyeongsang Selatan, Korea Selatan –kota yang menjadi lokasi markas dan pabrik utama Korea Aerospace Industries.

Sebanyak 200 insinyur Indonesia secara bertahap berangkat ke Sacheon selama satu-dua tahun ini. Mula-mula mereka akan merancang desain pesawat. Para insinyur itu juga akan ikut mendesain seluruh komponen pesawat.

Dari total pekerja kedua negara yang terlibat pembuatan KF-X/IF-X, 30 persen lebih berasal dari Indonesia dan mayoritas sisanya dari Korea Selatan. Ini pula alasan pembuatan pesawat dipusatkan di Sacheon, bukan di Indonesia.

Proporsi 30 persen lebih insinyur Indonesia yang terlibat pengerjaan KF-X/IF-X itu sesungguhnya bertambah dari jumlah semula sebanyak 20 persen. Penambahan pekerja Indonesia itu terjadi seiring berjalannya waktu penggarapan.

“Itu menandakan insinyur Indonesia diperhitungkan Korea. Bahkan ada paket pekerjaan yang satu teknologinya hanya dimiliki orang Indonesia. Dia doktor dari ITB (Institut Teknologi Bandung), satu-satunya yang memiliki kemampuan inlight design. Jadi Korea tak memandang enteng Indonesia,” kata Anne.

Google Translate

In making the prototype of the multi-fighter aircraft, according to Head of the Ministry of Defense's Research and Development Agency Anne Kusmayati, PTDI will make wings, boosters at the bottom of the wing and tail.

Work on KF-X / IF-X fighter jets will be centered in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province, South Korea, the city which is the headquarters and main factory of Korea Aerospace Industries.

A total of 200 Indonesian engineers have gradually departed for Sacheon for one or two years. At first they will design the aircraft design. The engineers will also participate in designing all aircraft components.

Of the total workers of the two countries involved in the making of KF-X / IF-X, 30 percent are more from Indonesia and the majority of the rest are from South Korea. This is also the reason for making aircraft centered on Sacheon, not in Indonesia.

The proportion of more than 30 percent of Indonesian engineers involved in working on the KF-X / IF-X actually increased from the original amount of 20 percent. The addition of Indonesian workers occurred as time went by cultivation.

"It signifies that Indonesian engineers count on Korea. There is even a work package whose technology is only owned by Indonesians. He is a doctor from ITB (Bandung Institute of Technology), the only one who has inlight design capabilities. So Korea does not take Indonesia lightly, "Anne said.

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...ur-ri-buatan-sendiri-mengangkasa-9-tahun-lagi

 

[AlohanAkua]

Here are news talking about Indonesian engineers and KFX/IFX part made in Indonesia in CNN Indonesia :

News:

Dalam pembuatan prototipe pesawat tempur multiperan itu, menurut Kepala Badan Penelitian dan Pengembangan Kementerian Pertahanan Anne Kusmayati, PTDI akan membuat sayap, penguat di bagian bawah sayap, dan ekor.

Pengerjaan jet tempur KF-X/IF-X akan dipusatkan di Sacheon, Provinsi Gyeongsang Selatan, Korea Selatan –kota yang menjadi lokasi markas dan pabrik utama Korea Aerospace Industries.

Sebanyak 200 insinyur Indonesia secara bertahap berangkat ke Sacheon selama satu-dua tahun ini. Mula-mula mereka akan merancang desain pesawat. Para insinyur itu juga akan ikut mendesain seluruh komponen pesawat.

Dari total pekerja kedua negara yang terlibat pembuatan KF-X/IF-X, 30 persen lebih berasal dari Indonesia dan mayoritas sisanya dari Korea Selatan. Ini pula alasan pembuatan pesawat dipusatkan di Sacheon, bukan di Indonesia.

Proporsi 30 persen lebih insinyur Indonesia yang terlibat pengerjaan KF-X/IF-X itu sesungguhnya bertambah dari jumlah semula sebanyak 20 persen. Penambahan pekerja Indonesia itu terjadi seiring berjalannya waktu penggarapan.

“Itu menandakan insinyur Indonesia diperhitungkan Korea. Bahkan ada paket pekerjaan yang satu teknologinya hanya dimiliki orang Indonesia. Dia doktor dari ITB (Institut Teknologi Bandung), satu-satunya yang memiliki kemampuan inlight design. Jadi Korea tak memandang enteng Indonesia,” kata Anne.

Google Translate

In making the prototype of the multi-fighter aircraft, according to Head of the Ministry of Defense's Research and Development Agency Anne Kusmayati, PTDI will make wings, boosters at the bottom of the wing and tail.

Work on KF-X / IF-X fighter jets will be centered in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province, South Korea, the city which is the headquarters and main factory of Korea Aerospace Industries.

A total of 200 Indonesian engineers have gradually departed for Sacheon for one or two years. At first they will design the aircraft design. The engineers will also participate in designing all aircraft components.

Of the total workers of the two countries involved in the making of KF-X / IF-X, 30 percent are more from Indonesia and the majority of the rest are from South Korea. This is also the reason for making aircraft centered on Sacheon, not in Indonesia.

The proportion of more than 30 percent of Indonesian engineers involved in working on the KF-X / IF-X actually increased from the original amount of 20 percent. The addition of Indonesian workers occurred as time went by cultivation.

"It signifies that Indonesian engineers count on Korea. There is even a work package whose technology is only owned by Indonesians. He is a doctor from ITB (Bandung Institute of Technology), the only one who has inlight design capabilities. So Korea does not take Indonesia lightly, "Anne said.

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...ur-ri-buatan-sendiri-mengangkasa-9-tahun-lagi

The way I see it, if even SK engineers feel Indonesian engineers aren't getting a fair deal, equal to their contributions and abilities, then that must be close to the truth because they would know the situation best. There's not much SK can do about US denial of ToT, that tech does belong to the US, but the goal is for this project to be beneficial for both countries, so here's to hoping SK & Indon. can work things out to mutual satisfaction

 

[Var Dracon]

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

The beast of Cibinong

 

[Logam42]

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

The beast of Cibinong

wrong forum mate

 

[Indos]

KFX/IFX 109

 

[AlohanAkua]

KFX/IFX 109

Can see from the 1st pic comparing the fighters, KF-X C-109 is now larger than F-35 (and also C-104)

F-35:

• Length: 50.5 ft[486] (15.67 m)
• Wingspan: 35 ft[c] (10.7 m)
• Height: 14.2 ft[d] (4.33 m)
• Wing area: 460 ft²[85] (42.7 m²)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Specifications_(F-35A)

KF-X/IF-X:

• Length: 16.9 m (55.4 ft)
• Wingspan: 11.2 m (36.7 ft)
• Height: 4.7 m (15.3 ft)
• Wing area: 46.5 square meters (500 square feets)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_KF-X#Specifications

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

KF-X is only on paper. Even if it gets built, South Korea has no jet engine. It cannot be said to be a Korean fighter. Jet engine is the heart of a jet. No engine. No jet.

 

[AlohanAkua]

KF-X is only on paper. Even if it gets built, South Korea has no jet engine. It cannot be said to be a Korean fighter. Jet engine is the heart of a jet. No engine. No jet.

? They're using the F414-GE-400, twin engine.

If you mean completely indigenous, then yeah they took the path of least resistance. But then, you could say the Saab Gripen isn't really a Swedish jet cuz they also use that US engine

 

[Indos]

Can see from the 1st pic comparing the fighters, KF-X C-109 is now larger than F-35 (and also C-104)

F-35:

• Length: 50.5 ft[486] (15.67 m)
• Wingspan: 35 ft[c] (10.7 m)
• Height: 14.2 ft[d] (4.33 m)
• Wing area: 460 ft²[85] (42.7 m²)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Specifications_(F-35A)

KF-X/IF-X:

• Length: 16.9 m (55.4 ft)
• Wingspan: 11.2 m (36.7 ft)
• Height: 4.7 m (15.3 ft)
• Wing area: 46.5 square meters (500 square feets)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_KF-X#Specifications

Wow Wikipedia is quick

It is as big as F/A 18 Hornet, not bad

It can be bigger for block 2 just like Hornet becomes Superhornet

KF-X is only on paper. Even if it gets built, South Korea has no jet engine. It cannot be said to be a Korean fighter. Jet engine is the heart of a jet. No engine. No jet.

South Korea will build the engine (by Hanwa) but the engine design is from USA

This project is not 100 % indigenous but it is still a good step for South Korea and Indonesia to start learning how to make a jet fighter while in the same time not compromising the quality either, thats why this program still has so many Western tech (Particularly US).

 

[AlohanAkua]

Wow Wikipedia is quick

It is as big as F/A 18 Hornet, not bad

It can be bigger for block 2 just like Hornet becomes Superhornet

South Korea will build the engine (by Hanwa) but the engine design is from USA

This project is not 100 % indigenous but it is still a good step for South Korea and Indonesia to start learning how to make a jet fighter while in the same time not compromising the quality either, thats why this program still has so many Western tech (Particularly US).

Going bigger for block 2 may not be a bad idea, because it'll all be internal bays then. There's concern fuel capacity/range must shrink to make room; performance compromises for stealth.

Block 3 almost seems more like block "2.5"; countries that purchase block 2 would just be waiting to upgrade, apply radar absorbent coating once its fully developed, making it block 3 (unless there are a lot of improvements under the hood).

Also @undertakerwwefan developing indigenous engines may have pushed things back by 10 yrs or more, and likely more than doubled the cost (China & India can attest to this)