Indoneasia in $25 billion deal with France for Fighters and Subs

[Indos]

I don't think US will help South Korea to build F-35 competitors. Even Israel Lavi canceled because of US sanction.

That is correct, that is why US doesnt allow 4 critical technologies to supply the program but the program still continue without US support on that 4 technologies.

The US still support the program for other technology like jet engine since there is European consortium who will help the program if US back down. Previous tender on engine and others are a competition between US and European companies and since the contract to supply the engine has been signed by US, I believe they will not betray the contract. Eurofighter consortium even previously bring the proposal to include financial support for KFX/IFX program for 20 % of the total development cost if Korean chose European instead of US to help the program.

The engine is also made by US company who is not part of F 35 program, so I believe letting GE to contribute in our program is inline with US government interest to keep their defense companies alive by selling the engine to the program.

 

[vi-va]

That is correct, that is why US doesnt allow 4 critical technologies to supply the program but the program still continue without US support on that 4 technologies.

The US still support the program for other technology like jet engine since there is European consortium who will help the program if US back down. Previous tender on engine and others are a competition between US and European companies and since the contract to supply the engine has been signed by US, I believe they will not betray the contract. Eurofighter consortium even previously bring the proposal to include financial support for KFX/IFX program for 20 % of the total development cost if Korean chose European instead of US to help the program.

The engine is also made by US company who is not part of F 35 program, so I believe letting GE to contribute in our program is inline with US government interest to keep their defense companies alive by selling the engine to the program.

Profit is one thing, another reason I think US would keep influence of Korea as well as Indonesia.

As long as Korea and Indonesia jet use US parts, you will have to sign terms which you can't sell overseas without US agreement. Also under potential sanctions when US needs.

Korea has never developed fighter jet before, I think Korea will face tremendous issues and delay the projects for many years. US will leverage those issues and pressure Korea for something else they need.

Indonesia's bet on Korea will not be fruitful I think. The project will not give Indonesia what you need. Not competitive enough to counter potential rival, such as Australia F-35 or other 5th generation jet, also the cost will be very high because limited orders.

Korea will not TOT even if they promised, the most sensitive technologies come from US which no TOT at all.

I think this project will fail. Sorry to say that.

I have seen many projects involves too many partners. None of them did well.

If I am project decision maker, I would suggest Indonesia military buy J-10C just like Pakistan, but use a hell of a lot of jet orders as bait for TOT.

 

[powastick]

Only corrupt countries deal with French, many of their deals including Malaysia. Their deal includes kickback and assassination.

 

[Whizzack]

Our request for F-35 has been denied, not that there was much chance of it in the first place.. But it also seems that the US is reluctant to offer F-15s, perhaps it's still considered too sensitive for the likes of Australia and Singapore... What's on offer is the F-16V and likely the F-18...

However Indonesia also likely doesn't want to put all their eggs in the US basket, the memories of the recent embargo still fresh in the minds of many, and thus seeks to diversify.. Traditionally the alternative would be Russian jets, we are operating Su-27/30s afterall.. but due to CAATSA it's unlikely we'll be able to add more, at least in the short to medium term... and hence the French option..

Among western European countries, France is still considered as the "more independent" of the US, and also usually less fussy about how we use their equipment..

However we still need to see whether this negotiations with the French is actually a serious effort to obtain French arms, or is it just an effort to gain more leverage during negotiations with the US.. The fact that this news first came from a French source and later confirmed by their defence minister, gives some hope that this actually a serious effort from our part..

 

[IblinI]

48 jets, 4 subs and 2 covertte cost more than 25 billion usd?! The fact that indonesias annual defence budget is merely 10 billion, if true, this is going to be a deal which will last for a decade or more.

 

[Whizzack]

48 jets, 4 subs and 2 covertte cost more than 25 billion usd?! The fact that indonesias annual defence budget is merely 10 billion, if true, this is going to be a deal which will last for a decade or more.

Actually according to the earlier French article, it is the negotiations regarding the Rafale jets that is already in the advanced stage.. and the qty is for 36 units instead of 48... While for the subs and frigates, it is still less certain as "Indonesia is also still considering other options as of this time".

So yes, even if this is just for the 36 Rafale jets, procurement will still be multi-years as there's no way we will be able to pay for it in just a single fiscal year...

 

[The Maverick]

Actually according to the earlier French article, it is the negotiations regarding the Rafale jets that is already in the advanced stage.. and the qty is for 36 units instead of 48... While for the subs and frigates, it is still less certain as "Indonesia is also still considering other options as of this time".

So yes, even if this is just for the 36 Rafale jets, procurement will still be multi-years as there's no way we will be able to pay for it in just a single fiscal year...

it will be paid over decade
Rafale is the best jet outside of f35 that anybody can buy

f35 are very difficult to buy too many strings to operate

 

[IblinI]

Actually according to the earlier French article, it is the negotiations regarding the Rafale jets that is already in the advanced stage.. and the qty is for 36 units instead of 48... While for the subs and frigates, it is still less certain as "Indonesia is also still considering other options as of this time".

So yes, even if this is just for the 36 Rafale jets, procurement will still be multi-years as there's no way we will be able to pay for it in just a single fiscal year...

I guess we will have to take this price tag with a pinch of salt at this stage.

 

[khanmubashir]

F 35 were denied by the Americans

.

 

[Whizzack]

I guess we will have to take this price tag with a pinch of salt at this stage.

That's for sure! The USD 25B - 28B cost is probably the estimated total value if we take the whole package (jets/ships/subs/missiles/etc) as mentioned in the defenseworld article... However we don't know yet the actual price tag for the individual items on offer, or even what items we will eventually procure (if any)...

What surprises a lot of defense enthusiasts in Indonesia is actually the statement by the French defense minister that the deal for the Rafales is not only progressing smoothly but that it is actually already in advanced stage of negotiations! It's unexpected since the F-16V has always been seen as the top dog in this competition while the Rafale was considered more of a sideshow... even though we are aware that our defense minister has been windows shopping for other options for some time now.

And additionally, adding to the excitement, is the recent news that negotiations for the purchase of the 15 ex-Austrian Typhoons is also progressing well and is now already in the technical details stage of negotiations... So does this means we will be purchasing both...? also what about the F-16Vs.. will it be totally dropped? Or perhaps all of these is just an effort to pressure the US to give us more favorable terms for the Viper purchase..? or maybe even to allow us to get F-15s..?

Totally interesting times ahead for Indonesian military enthusiasts...!

 

[casual]

This means KFX is dead?

 

[manga]

Right, so french boycott by muslim coutries is no more relevant or it was jsut a hoax ?
25 bn deal is huge.

 

[Aryeih Leib]

.

Gotta fly ‘em all: Indonesia offered F-16 Viper instead of F-35 - AeroTime

The Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto expressed interest to acquire a number of F-35As for the country’s air force. But his U.S. counterpart Mark Esper turned down the prospect and made a counteroffer by proposing a number of F-16 “Viper” fighters, the last version of...

www.google.com

 

[khanmubashir]

Gotta fly ‘em all: Indonesia offered F-16 Viper instead of F-35 - AeroTime

The Indonesian Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto expressed interest to acquire a number of F-35As for the country’s air force. But his U.S. counterpart Mark Esper turned down the prospect and made a counteroffer by proposing a number of F-16 “Viper” fighters, the last version of...

www.google.com

Well f16 v r more cost effective with comparable capabilities to rafales
But at lower price
So can buy more in same price

Perhaps may even get f15 X even better jet but still costing less

 

[DavidSling]

I thought france was the enemy of all muslim