Indo-Russian 5th Generation PAK-FA/FGFA is dead

[Pulsar]

I think India would go for F-16s or F-18s under Make in India and go for the F-35s as and when they are available. The problem with F-35s is that India is at the back of the line and may have to wait for another 8-10 years for its turn.

The SU-35 is the way to go.

First off, the Su-35 will get an improved air-frame, which will dramatically increase its service life to 6,000 hours, 30 years of operation (the time before the first test and recondition and the between-repairs period has been increased to 1,500 hours, or 10 years of operation). Aerodynamically it is similar to the Su-27.

But unlike the Su-30MKI it will feature no canard fins. All the three channels will have electrically signaled control without mechanical cabling. The use of a new integrated control system (developed by MNPK Avionika Moscow-based Research and Production Association) simultaneously performing functions of several systems – remote control, automatic control, limiting signals system, air signals system, chassis wheels braking system – will enhance the fighter’s handling capability and maneuverability.

The “heart” of the aircraft

Another important difference of the Su-35 from predecessors from the Su-27 family is the use, in its power plant, of new engines with an increased thrust. Those engines, known as 117S, have been developed by NPO Saturn Research and Production Association.

In terms of engineering, the engines are substantially modified AL-31F production engines employing fifth-generation technologies. They use a new fan, new high and low pressure turbines, and a new digital control system. A provision is made for using a vectored thrust nozzle. The modernization has increased the engine special mode thrust by 16%, up to 14,500 kgf. In the maximum burner-free mode it reaches 8,800 kgf. Compared to today’s AL-31F engines, their capabilities will grow substantially, by 2 to 2.7 times. For instance, the between-repair period will grow from 500 to 1,000 hours (the operating period before the first overhaul is 1,500 hours). The designed period will vary between 1,500 and 4,000 hours.

New onboard systems

The distinctive feature of Su-35 is the employment of a new suite of onboard instruments. Its core is the information management system (IMS), which integrates functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex that ensures the interaction between the crew and equipment. The IMS includes two central digital computers, commutation and information devices and an indication system built on the “all-glass cockpit” concept.

The core of the Su-35 cockpit instrumentation suite are two full-color multi-function liquid crystal displays of MFI type, a multi-function panel with a built-in display processor, a wide angle collimatory display on the windshield and a control and indication panel.

“Eyes and ears”

The core of the Su-35 armament is a new radar control system with a phased antenna array (Irbis-E). It features unique capabilities in terms of the target detection range. This is a development V V Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrument Production. In design, this is an X-waveband multi-role radar with a passive phased antenna array (PAA) mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit (in azimuth and roll). The antenna device scans by an electronically controlled beam in azimuth and angle of elevation in sectors not smaller than 60°. The two-step electro-hydraulic drive unit additionally turns the antenna by mechanic means to 60° in azimuth and 120° in roll. Thus, in using the electronic control and mechanical additional turn of the antenna, the maximum deflection angle of the beam grows to 120°.

Irbis-E radar control system detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, retaining continuity of space observation and engaging up to eight targets. The system detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, without stopping to monitor the airspace.

Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.

Armament

In addition to the armaments onboard the modern Su-30MK, it is planned to additionally arm the Su-35 with new types of air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, including long-range types. The maximum ordnance load of the Su-35 is 8,000 kg. This is placed in 12 weapon stations.

Yes! We should go in for this fighter instead of the F-35 which is bedeviled with problems and almost twice the cost of a SU-35.

 

[dadeechi]

The SU-35 is the way to go.

First off, the Su-35 will get an improved air-frame, which will dramatically increase its service life to 6,000 hours, 30 years of operation (the time before the first test and recondition and the between-repairs period has been increased to 1,500 hours, or 10 years of operation). Aerodynamically it is similar to the Su-27.

But unlike the Su-30MKI it will feature no canard fins. All the three channels will have electrically signaled control without mechanical cabling. The use of a new integrated control system (developed by MNPK Avionika Moscow-based Research and Production Association) simultaneously performing functions of several systems – remote control, automatic control, limiting signals system, air signals system, chassis wheels braking system – will enhance the fighter’s handling capability and maneuverability.

The “heart” of the aircraft

Another important difference of the Su-35 from predecessors from the Su-27 family is the use, in its power plant, of new engines with an increased thrust. Those engines, known as 117S, have been developed by NPO Saturn Research and Production Association.

In terms of engineering, the engines are substantially modified AL-31F production engines employing fifth-generation technologies. They use a new fan, new high and low pressure turbines, and a new digital control system. A provision is made for using a vectored thrust nozzle. The modernization has increased the engine special mode thrust by 16%, up to 14,500 kgf. In the maximum burner-free mode it reaches 8,800 kgf. Compared to today’s AL-31F engines, their capabilities will grow substantially, by 2 to 2.7 times. For instance, the between-repair period will grow from 500 to 1,000 hours (the operating period before the first overhaul is 1,500 hours). The designed period will vary between 1,500 and 4,000 hours.

New onboard systems

The distinctive feature of Su-35 is the employment of a new suite of onboard instruments. Its core is the information management system (IMS), which integrates functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex that ensures the interaction between the crew and equipment. The IMS includes two central digital computers, commutation and information devices and an indication system built on the “all-glass cockpit” concept.

The core of the Su-35 cockpit instrumentation suite are two full-color multi-function liquid crystal displays of MFI type, a multi-function panel with a built-in display processor, a wide angle collimatory display on the windshield and a control and indication panel.

“Eyes and ears”

The core of the Su-35 armament is a new radar control system with a phased antenna array (Irbis-E). It features unique capabilities in terms of the target detection range. This is a development V V Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrument Production. In design, this is an X-waveband multi-role radar with a passive phased antenna array (PAA) mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit (in azimuth and roll). The antenna device scans by an electronically controlled beam in azimuth and angle of elevation in sectors not smaller than 60°. The two-step electro-hydraulic drive unit additionally turns the antenna by mechanic means to 60° in azimuth and 120° in roll. Thus, in using the electronic control and mechanical additional turn of the antenna, the maximum deflection angle of the beam grows to 120°.

Irbis-E radar control system detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, retaining continuity of space observation and engaging up to eight targets. The system detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, without stopping to monitor the airspace.

Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.

Armament

In addition to the armaments onboard the modern Su-30MK, it is planned to additionally arm the Su-35 with new types of air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, including long-range types. The maximum ordnance load of the Su-35 is 8,000 kg. This is placed in 12 weapon stations.

Yes! We should go in for this fighter instead of the F-35 which is bedeviled with problems and almost twice the cost of a SU-35.

Yeah but IAF is least interested. IAFsmells the blood now and would go full throttle on the government to procure 126 RAFALEs.

 

[Joseph Goebbels]

Russia will only 'sell' russian built 5th gen fighters to india and this government new it from very early thats why new defence minister was so much involved with AMCA and the fact since india and USA have agreed to work jointly on IAC-2 INS VISHAL chances are of F-35C with tilt rotor based E2D/E AWACS are very bright so better to work on our own concept and rope in Israel and Japan in the project

 

[PRC]

It's very funny that people are accusing me of baseless claims while totally ignoring the concrete actions taken by the incumbent government which are inefficient at best and sinister at worst.

Also it is amusing people are questioning why I am questioning BJP. If the action is taken by a BJP government, how can I attribute the blame on Congress, AAP or CPIM?

If you care to read my post carefully you would realize the fallacy of your argument. I am not stopping you to argue or comment against the incumbent government ,infact I encourage you to do that by posting a separate relevant thread for that. My disagreement is with your claim which you made in your previous post that Russia has declined to offer S-400 which is factually incorrect and nothing to do with the incumbent Govt. At the same time most of your post has no relevance to the topic of this thread and merely commenting against the incumbent govt. only proves your political bias. Your another hysterical comment that it better to cede Kashmir and Arunachal is another example of your senseless innuendos. By comments like these you appear more like an charlatan, impostor who original intention is different from what he is trying to portray.
Either you are a dumb charlatan as you are not able to hide your political bias or you are genuinely low on intelligence who is unable to relate to the subject and post accordingly.

 

[Pulsar]

Yeah but IAF is least interested. IAFsmells the blood now and would go full throttle on the government to procure 126 RAFALEs.

But 1 x Rafale cost = 2 x Su-35s.

In other words, we could get 252 SU-35s for the cost of 126 Rafales! And both are 4++ gen.

 

[dadeechi]

If you care to read my post carefully you would realize the fallacy of your argument. I am not stopping you to argue or comment against the incumbent government ,infact I encourage you to do that by posting a separate relevant thread for that. My disagreement is with your claim which you made in your previous post that Russia has declined to offer S-400 which is factually incorrect and nothing to do with the incumbent Govt. At the same time most of your post has no relevance to the topic of this thread and merely commenting against the incumbent govt. only proves your political bias. Your another hysterical comment that it better to cede Kashmir and Arunachal is another example of your senseless innuendos. By comments like these you appear more like an charlatan, impostor who original intention is different from what he is trying to portray.
Either you are a dumb charlatan as you are not able to hide your political bias or you are genuinely low on intelligence who is unable to relate to the subject and post accordingly.

How does anyone know what is a fact? People have to go by what is in the press and deduct inferences and conclusions based on the cumulative information and intelligence.

1) First DM MP confirms the s-400 deal

2) We hear that the deal has been linked to PAK-FA

Russia May Link Sale of S-400 to India With Fighter Development

3) CCS clears s-400 deal

4) S-400 deal was not signed as part of the summit

5) We known that Russia was not interested in FGFA but only in PAK-FA

6) IAF is not interest in PAK-FA/FGFA but rather in RAFALEs

7) Russia sells SU-35s and S-400s to China

8) Announces talks to sell SU-35s to Pakistan

=============================================================

Now you tell me what inferences have you drawn from this and who is to be blamed?

But 1 x Rafale cost = 2 x Su-35s.

In other words, we could get 252 SU-35s for the cost of 126 Rafales! And both are 4++ gen.

RAFALE is a great plane. No doubt about that. Also, the price may come down when we go for 126+.

IAF loves RAFALEs and they will keep finding all types of excuses until their thirst for RAFALEs is quenched.

I hope the below still materializes if not PAK-FA/FGFA.

Could Su-35S Deal Edge Out Rafale in India?

 

[PRC]

How does anyone know what is a fact? People have to go by what is in the press and deduct inferences and conclusions based on the cumulative information and intelligence.

1) First DM MP confirms the s-400 deal

2) We hear that the deal has been linked to PAK-FA

3) CCS clears s-400 deal

4) S-400 deal was not signed as part of the summit

5) We known that Russia was not interested in FGFA but only in PAK-FA

6) IAF is not interest in PAK-FA/FGFA but rather in RAFALEs

7) Russia sells SU-35s and S-400s to China

8) Announces talks to sell SU-35s to Pakistan

=============================================================

Now you tell me what inferences have you drawn from this and who is to be blamed?



RAFALE is a great plane. No doubt about that. Also, the price may come down when we go for 126+.

IAF loves RAFALEs and they will keep finding all types of excuses until their thirst for RAFALEs is quenched.

I hope the below still materializes if not PAK-FA/FGFA.

1) First DM MP confirms the s-400 deal

DM never confirmed the S-400 Deal. He only confirmed the intention to buy S-400.

2) We hear that the deal has been linked to PAK-FA

Which is what I said in one of my post.

3) CCS clears s-400 deal

CCS clearance does not give divine right to demand S-400 from Russian. We still need their approval. CCS clearance was necessary to allocate required budget for this deal.

4) S-400 deal was not signed as part of the summit

There was no commitment either from Indian or Russian side that the deal will be signed during the visit.

5) We known that Russia was not interested in FGFA but only in PAK-FA

Russia never said so. It is IAF which raised this point because of the timelines. Stop spreading lies.

6) IAF is not interest in PAK-FA/FGFA but rather in RAFALEs

The original idea was to buy both RAFALE and PAK-FA. The recent unhappiness with regard to PAK-FA is because of Russia who is not interested in sharing the details with IAF. Again this concerned is raised by IAF. If you really want to blame someone from Indian side then it is IAF, not the govt. (although I would say that in this particular case IAF concerns are genuine).

7) Russia sells SU-35s and S-400s to China

Nothing to do with present incumbent govt. or current visit. This decision was taken long back

8) Announces talks to sell SU-35s to Pakistan

All hot air and unsubstantiated.

Not a single valid point where you can blame the incumbent Govt. and hence I say that you are posting irrelevant comments to satisfy your own personal goal of maligning the present govt. and nothing else.
There is no press report which says that Russia has declined S-400 as you claimed earlier (another lie which you were trying to spread). Regarding PAK-FA, it is India which is hesitating to buy without knowing exactly what it is buying. Russia OTOH is trying every trick in the book to convince India to commit to the PAK-FA or FGFA.

Also, India will not buy Su35s for the simple reason that India has already invested in Super Sukhoi program.

 

[knight11]

The SU-35 is the way to go.

First off, the Su-35 will get an improved air-frame, which will dramatically increase its service life to 6,000 hours, 30 years of operation (the time before the first test and recondition and the between-repairs period has been increased to 1,500 hours, or 10 years of operation). Aerodynamically it is similar to the Su-27.

But unlike the Su-30MKI it will feature no canard fins. All the three channels will have electrically signaled control without mechanical cabling. The use of a new integrated control system (developed by MNPK Avionika Moscow-based Research and Production Association) simultaneously performing functions of several systems – remote control, automatic control, limiting signals system, air signals system, chassis wheels braking system – will enhance the fighter’s handling capability and maneuverability.

The “heart” of the aircraft

Another important difference of the Su-35 from predecessors from the Su-27 family is the use, in its power plant, of new engines with an increased thrust. Those engines, known as 117S, have been developed by NPO Saturn Research and Production Association.

In terms of engineering, the engines are substantially modified AL-31F production engines employing fifth-generation technologies. They use a new fan, new high and low pressure turbines, and a new digital control system. A provision is made for using a vectored thrust nozzle. The modernization has increased the engine special mode thrust by 16%, up to 14,500 kgf. In the maximum burner-free mode it reaches 8,800 kgf. Compared to today’s AL-31F engines, their capabilities will grow substantially, by 2 to 2.7 times. For instance, the between-repair period will grow from 500 to 1,000 hours (the operating period before the first overhaul is 1,500 hours). The designed period will vary between 1,500 and 4,000 hours.

New onboard systems

The distinctive feature of Su-35 is the employment of a new suite of onboard instruments. Its core is the information management system (IMS), which integrates functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex that ensures the interaction between the crew and equipment. The IMS includes two central digital computers, commutation and information devices and an indication system built on the “all-glass cockpit” concept.

The core of the Su-35 cockpit instrumentation suite are two full-color multi-function liquid crystal displays of MFI type, a multi-function panel with a built-in display processor, a wide angle collimatory display on the windshield and a control and indication panel.

“Eyes and ears”

The core of the Su-35 armament is a new radar control system with a phased antenna array (Irbis-E). It features unique capabilities in terms of the target detection range. This is a development V V Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrument Production. In design, this is an X-waveband multi-role radar with a passive phased antenna array (PAA) mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit (in azimuth and roll). The antenna device scans by an electronically controlled beam in azimuth and angle of elevation in sectors not smaller than 60°. The two-step electro-hydraulic drive unit additionally turns the antenna by mechanic means to 60° in azimuth and 120° in roll. Thus, in using the electronic control and mechanical additional turn of the antenna, the maximum deflection angle of the beam grows to 120°.

Irbis-E radar control system detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, retaining continuity of space observation and engaging up to eight targets. The system detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, without stopping to monitor the airspace.

Irbis-E radar detects air targets with an absolute cross section of 3 m2 on a head-on course at a range of up to 400 km.

Armament

In addition to the armaments onboard the modern Su-30MK, it is planned to additionally arm the Su-35 with new types of air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, including long-range types. The maximum ordnance load of the Su-35 is 8,000 kg. This is placed in 12 weapon stations.

Yes! We should go in for this fighter instead of the F-35 which is bedeviled with problems and almost twice the cost of a SU-35.

For Su-35 --- The advantage could be achieved economically with Super Sukhoi 30 MKI easily.

But 1 x Rafale cost = 2 x Su-35s.

In other words, we could get 252 SU-35s for the cost of 126 Rafales! And both are 4++ gen.

There is a difference between the flyaway cost and the total cost of acquisition and when you add the total cost of acquisitions + maintainance + spares + fuel Rafale is cheaper in the long run.

Now why would we wants Rafale because it has been zeroed by both GOI and IAF with a long and detailed MMRCA competition, and Rafale is the Medium wt category fighter meant for Deep Strike Penetration over hostile environment to do ground attack plus with the swing role , so how are we going to replace it with Multirole air superiority fighter plane like SU-35. If you want to go for 9G low altitude DPSA, then SU-34 pullback is more close to it.


For F-35 --- No because India is not a Nato and take all the capabilities of it has to bound to all the US/NATO deals e.g access to the US satellite and communication systems, which India don't want. Explained ellaborately by me in some another thread.

@dadeechi Why are you getting so much nervous and aggerated. First do you find any immediate threat.
Second Chinese would take atleast a decade to get 5th Gen birds, infact F-35 will take years to attain its FOC.
Delay in FGFA is good for India temporarily, because it will help India to equipped iAF with Raffale, and comparing Raffale role and FGFA is the ideotic thing. FGFA is meant to replace/suppliment MKI, which could give its service up to 2035 easily. Third India too have its own 5th Gen program called AMCA, but it is not meant for the role of FGFA, rather as a DPSA complimenting Rafale. Now taking these consideration bellow

1. Defence --- The next war would be short, high intensity, coordinated, and strongly communicated and linked in which FGFA fits our bills to the best but its not mandatory. See France don't have any 5th generation program.

2. Economics --- Problem have been there due to the deals all clashing at the same time aka mrca, fgfa, s400, carrier, lca, amca and india have to find the solutions to stream line all these.

3. Political --- You are making assumption and making speculations like the yellow journalist with the body languages etc, but internal negociattion, technical deadlocks/problems are not clear at the moments nor officially declared. So just one meeting and deal is not signed does not means it is been shelfed, nor it is so easy for both the countries and OEM.

 

[TopCat]

India now can opt for technology transfer from JF-17 and build a 5th generation by itself.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Second Chinese would take atleast a decade to get 5th Gen birds, infact F-35 will take years to attain its FOC.

China will officially begin mass production of J-20 in 2017.

That's literally in the next year or two.

We've launched around 10 prototypes already.

 

[mirage]

Sounds like a good way to bankrupt India.

you better manipulate your dying yuan and economy in recession ,understand ? you might be blindfolded by propaganda of xinhua news agency ,but we are not .

 

[Pulsar]

India must spend at leat 50 billion USD per annum buying Russian weapons for the next 20 years。

A similar amount should be allocated to the purchase of weapons from other countries such as France、the US and Israel etc，annually for the next 20 years。

I like your avatar!!!

 

[knight11]

China will officially begin mass production of J-20 in 2017.

That's literally in the next year or two.

We have been hearing J-10 the F-16 and Rafale beater for Decades, so keep your rants to yourself.

1. For Engine tech it takes Decades for getting mature after it is been developed.
2. For Radar, you are still strugling despite help from Russian OEM like Zhuk, Su-35 deal was also the part of it.
3. Buying off the shelf IPRs and blue prints from Ukraine, then build J11,J12, J15, J16, YJ-12, Does not make you equal to the Soviets or Russian, because Ukrainians or othe CAR won't help you in these field because the tech. like Engines and Radars, and high tech Optronic sensors are deep inside Russia, and the window to get these by hooks and crooks have been closed. And it does not change the facts that China is facing flaws and problems in all the projects
4. Despite been having 2 5th Gen fighter program and several 4+ gen fighter plane you are buying Su-35, shows that you are far away to reach that target.
5. And the last but not the least mr. Chau Chau you should be woried more in replacing your old 2-3rd gen bird like J-7, and illushin airframe, than Indians because India is not facing any threat like Japanese and US battlefield, nor we have despute with nations like Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Philipense, Vietnaam, Indonesia, US, and Russia. India should be the last one.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

5. And the last but not the least mr. Chau Chau

Mr Chau Chau?

Another racist Indian.

Like I said, we are officially going to start mass producing J-20 in 2017, which is only 1 or 2 years away.

Try to debate like a human being at least.

 

[knight11]

Mr Chau Chau?

Another racist Indian.

Like I said, we are officially going to start mass producing J-20 in 2017, which is only 1 or 2 years away.

Try to debate like a human being at least.

Bookmarked this thread, I will be waiting here in PDF pls tag me when you will be able to mass produce J-20.

Now I gave you the Timeline its >2030 Remember

5th Generation does not means just a triangular shape airframe, with RAM and internal weapon Bay, but it consisted of Smart weapons, High speed communication, Sensors, and a strong powerful battlefield management and system. First develop decent Engine , Decent AESA FCR MMR, Decent Sensors, Decent metallurgy.

And thanks for the Negative Rating I didn't like a zero rating in that field.