India's Worst Fears and Our Military Options For Sir Creek,Kutch and Kathiawar Regions of Gujrat

[Joe Shearer]

Sigh,while everything is being done of India,Pakistan sits idle hence gap continues each hour.
M777, it would solve all issues and it would outgun PA arty also.

The numbers, Sir, are that its normal range is a shade over 25 kms, 24.7 kms., 30 kms with rocket-assisted rounds. The closest flat ground suitable for artillery emplacement is the forest block just north of a village called Kalaroos, close to Kupwara, north of Sopore; the as_the_crow_flies distance to Sharda is 25 kms., to Kel, or to Karan or Atmuqam, all about 27 to 28 kms. Either the Bofors or the M777 might reach the Neelum Valley at extreme range. Both the Bofors re-build from originals, the Dhanush, and the DRDO fresh design, the ATAGS, are 39 and 45 kms respectively, but are both very, very heavy.

I have a list of Pakistani artillery types and their ranges, but they are not at my fingertips, as the Indian artillery pieces ranges are.

There are other problems as well, and I have mentioned some of them elsewhere.

Recently, some gunners, looking for a suitable piece of flat ground on which to place their pieces, picked the school playground in a little village called Panzgam. They nearly got killed by the local mothers; it was not the rape of the school playground that angered them, it was the fear of counter-battery fire, that would definitely, positively come down right on top of their houses.

It is a source of great embarrassment and pain to me that in all these years, we have not managed to dig out gun platforms on the hillsides, far from the villages. This is really unforgivable.

Sigh,while everything is being done of India,Pakistan sits idle hence gap continues each hour.
M777, it would solve all issues and it would outgun PA arty also.

To be honest, we all know that rationalising these boundaries is next to impossible. While the attacking superiority in the plains should be in the region of 3:1, in the mountains, it is really closer to 9:1. Considering the numbers of NLI and the Mujahedin Regiment backing up the rest of the Army, it would be prohibitive to assemble that number of soldiers, guns and sappers with their equipment in attacking distance of the targets.

Nothing realistic or practical about these thoughts.

 

[Armchair]

@Signalian check this thread out, our ideas are still echoing! You remember the time an Indian publication took these ideas of Kutch to be an actual Pakistani military plan?

 

[Sine Nomine]

The numbers, Sir, are that its normal range is a shade over 25 kms, 24.7 kms., 30 kms with rocket-assisted rounds. The closest flat ground suitable for artillery emplacement is the forest block just north of a village called Kalaroos, close to Kupwara, north of Sopore; the as_the_crow_flies distance to Sharda is 25 kms., to Kel, or to Karan or Atmuqam, all about 27 to 28 kms. Either the Bofors or the M777 might reach the Neelum Valley at extreme range. Both the Bofors re-build from originals, the Dhanush, and the DRDO fresh design, the ATAGS, are 39 and 45 kms respectively, but are both very, very heavy.

Still good old Mountain guns are worthy equipment as compared to 155's and 130's.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Still good old Mountain guns are worthy equipment as compared to 155's and 130's.

Certainly compared to the 130s, but regarding the Bofors, it proved its efficacy in combat 21 years ago.

But perhaps you mean that the old guns that could be disassembled and transported on mules, and still performed very well in mountain conditions, straight up and down,and a lot of indirect fire. If that is what you mean, you have a point. Nothing we have now comes close to that effectiveness.

 

[Jackdaws]

You may be but we are not happy with what we have.

That's understandable. Too bad.

 

[ARMalik]

Pour resources in Air Force, AWACS and other net centric and get Integrated war planning right with AF leading the way. All advantages India ever had, including land mass and larger military, will evaporate in thin-air as if they never existed.

GET IT RIGHT FOR GOD'S SAKE and stop living in this self imposed weakness. I am really frustrated with Pakistan's military planners.

 

[War Historian]

Since your historical claims are mostly based on the respective kings ruling over those lands which you feel should rightfully belong to Pak after the partition

On that note, the whole of J&K was acceded to India by Maharaja Hari Singh...let's start with that and handover the whole of AJK & GB after which we can start consultations about your claims

Your leaders already did it, now its our choice and our offence . You are only on the receiving end of missiles and artillery.

How so?
In what administrative field has GoP outperformed GoI and how does that translate to better management of a territory markedly bigger than what they have.

Or are we giving up Territories based on religion again?
If so then you missed the bus in 47.

Its time for new Pakistani territory inside old india for new Pakistanis.

Its simply putting unachievable goalposts to keep the money flowing in and giving the public some hope of greater victory after the embarrassment in 71. Its understandable.

Same goes for your govt since 1987,when they were aware about the Pakistani nukes by Gen Zia ul Haq. Every time your military gather at the borders 1987,1998,1999,2001,2008,2016,2019. Lives there 2 to 6 months and then return to barracks. Because your leader don't have the courage to attack on Pakistan, fear of nuclear holocaust is waiting at their doorstep.
So keep your fool people engage with truck mounted Samoosa jet, arjun and other scrap products.

Pour resources in Air Force, AWACS and other net centric and get Integrated war planning right with AF leading the way. All advantages India ever had, including land mass and larger military, will evaporate in thin-air as if they never existed.

GET IT RIGHT FOR GOD'S SAKE and stop living in this self imposed weakness. I am really frustrated with Pakistan's military planners.

You are right Sir.
Since the WW 2 and after that, every war was won by the respective country's air force. But our planners never gave importance to this field.
That's a sad part.

 

[Sine Nomine]

But perhaps you mean that the old guns that could be disassembled and transported on mules, and still performed very well in mountain conditions, straight up and down,and a lot of indirect fire. If that is what you mean, you have a point. Nothing we have now comes close to that effectiveness.

Yes.

Certainly compared to the 130s, but regarding the Bofors, it proved its efficacy in combat 21 years ago.

Current 155's are many step above 130's but there weight is massive downside in Mountain Warfare,though M777 is an exception along with Chinese AH-4 and AHS-4.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes.

No doubt about that.

Current 155's are many step above 130's but there weight is massive downside in Mountain Warfare,though M777 is an exception along with Chinese AH-4 and AHS-4.

Sir, did you know that the old 130s in inventory, several thousands of them, are being re-engineered to 155 mm by the Ordnance Factories? The cost of conversion is about a crore (Indian) and the first few conversions have been very successful indeed, combining the rugged mechanism of the Russian systems with the increased bore of the modern howitzer. You can imagine the huge market abroad for re-engineering these systems at this price!

I mention this because it is a hopeful sign that we are at last getting our artillery house in order, although I have personally very serious doubts about what seems to be a complete abandonment of the old workhorse 105 mm field guns. Also the lack of self-propelled guns other than the Korean K-9.

 

[Krptonite]

Its time for new Pakistani territory inside old india for new Pakistanis.

It's well within your rights to dream, to wish or to fantasize.

Without the "how" though, they will remain as such.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Sir, did you know that the old 130s in inventory, several thousands of them, are being re-engineered to 155 mm by the Ordnance Factories? The cost of conversion is about a crore (Indian) and the first few conversions have been very successful indeed, combining the rugged mechanism of the Russian systems with the increased bore of the modern howitzer. You can imagine the huge market

Yeah i read about this long ago,if i am not wrong Israel was first which started this re-barrel program for IA in mid of last decade though it was later terminated due to QC issues.
I can't comment on market since there are almost 3 other vendors who offer same upgarde and i havn't seen any state other than India going for this upgarde in bulk.

 

[BL33D]

Same goes for your govt since 1987,when they were aware about the Pakistani nukes by Gen Zia ul Haq. Every time your military gather at the borders 1987,1998,1999,2001,2008,2016,2019. Lives there 2 to 6 months and then return to barracks. Because your leader don't have the courage to attack on Pakistan, fear of nuclear holocaust is waiting at their doorstep.

That's a sad part.

Because the cost benefits for such a large scale op doesnt make sense. We dont eye your territory. And Kashmir is a stalemate. Its you that cant cope with a status quo as your armies existence and future depends on some sort of action against India. Indian actions have always been a reaction. And IA doesnt have any such existential crisis like that of PA's. So stop overhyping your importance that we will go to war. What do you exactly have ? A border with one of the most tumultuous regions on earth filled with Islamic extremist groups. It acts as a good buffer. As much as we feel sad why we didnt march forward in Lahore, we were all aware about the needs of a buffer state for all the worst things from our west.

@Joe Shearer @Nilgiri

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian check this thread out, our ideas are still echoing! You remember the time an Indian publication took these ideas of Kutch to be an actual Pakistani military plan?

The map i made is getting famous

 

[KhanBaba2]

As much as we feel sad why we didnt march forward in Lahore, we were all aware about the needs of a buffer state for all the worst things from our west.

If we had gone towards Lahore, we would have got caught is an intense urban warfare situation even if we had succeeded.

 

[Armchair]

There is nothing else to do but indulge in these nightmares.



Perhaps with a few rationalisations.

Haji Pir Pass, for instance; at present, it serves as a junction for transiting adventurers for their three months of life of adventure.

The Neelum Valley, for another; it only serves to site artillery bases for the other side, and the sooner this is taken away from them, the better.

@Armchair

Have you been infecting little Nightmare here? It sounds suspiciously familiar.

Its not all my nightmare, its also @Signalian 's as well. Actually we consider it a pleasant dream. More and more people seem to be sharing our dreams

In reality, this is the dream of Allama Iqbal. There is no PaKistan without Kashmir. And it was the direct command, the dying with of Mohammad Ali Jinnah to liberate Kashmir. At that time the Pakistan Army could not obey.

But someday the Pakistan Army will fulfill that dream in'sha'Allah. (if Allah wills).