India's First Scorpène-Class Diesel-Electric Attack Submarine INS Kalvari Rolled Out!

[lasttry]

Even if it could carry more firepower, it does not have range and endurance to engage in open sea combat.

Pernicious range and endurance of SSKs was the sole reason why SSNs were required to begin with.

The kilos have enough range to sail upto Hainan. I dont know what you are talking about when you say no range.

 

[temp1994]

Why is it technically impossible? You just need a large enough sub. The Amur class has VLS for Bramhos as well as AIP options when they offered to India.

Secondly, why does an SSN need AIP? I think you confused this with something else.

Amur varient that has VLS does not has AIP.

Yes, a large enough Sub would do the trick, but such sub does not exist atm. There are speculations about U-216.

Also remember that diesel is not an energy intensive fuel. Larger the sub, more diesel it would have to carry for propulsion. Thus increasing size of SSK has law of diminishing return acting on it.

The kilos have enough range to sail upto Hainan. I dont know what you are talking about when you say no range.

It has 400 miles range submerged. Hainan is 8000 Km away via mallaca strait.

 

[lasttry]

Amur varient that has VLS does not has AIP.

Yes, a large enough Sub would do the trick, but such sub does not exist atm. There are speculations about U-216.

Also remember that diesel is not an energy intensive fuel. Larger the sub, more diesel it would have to carry for propulsion. Thus increasing size of SSK has law of diminishing return acting on it.




It has 400 miles range submerged.

Russia offered the AMUR with VLS and DRDO developed AIP.

Of course submerged range is only 400. It has to surface for oxygen. But range is more than 5000 miles. Three Kilos have enough to go to Hainan and clean out their entire naval base.

 

[Storm Force]

NICE NICE NICE

 

[sancho]

The delays would not have taken place (or would have been minimised to a significant degree) if the previous DM had done his job and monitored the progress of defence projects- this has been echoed by not just the new DM

India Plans First Scorpene Submarine Induction By 2015 - Mar 19, 2012

India expects to induct its first Scorpene submarine beginning in 2015, three years behind the original schedule.

All six submarines will be in service by 2018 at a revised cost of 235.62 billion rupees ($4.7 billion), nearly a 50-billion-rupee increase from the originally approved cost of 187.98 billion rupees, Defense Minister A.K. Antony tells the lower house of the Indian Parliament...

...The delay in construction of Scorpene submarines is attributable to initial teething problems in absorption of new technology, delay in augmentation of industrial infrastructure at MDL and delay in procurement of items by MDL due to their high cost as compared to the earlier indicated cost,” Antony continues. “Most of the teething problems have been resolved and various plans have been put in place to minimize delays.”

m.aviationweek.com/defense/india-plans-first-scorpene-submarine-induction-2015

So the delay was caused by the lack of know how of MDL to absorb the techs and provide the necessary infrastructure (which DCNS officials stated in interviews too) and the fact that we see the first sub being ready now, according to the plan from 2012 after the problems was solved, should make it obvious, that the project was monitored way before the new DM came in and that the new MoD had nothing to do with it.

As I keep telling you, it wasn't all as bad as you or the public might "think"! Indian forces are doing pretty good, important upgrades (fighters, subs, transport aircrafts, tanks) were done to keep the modernisation on going, plenty of additional procurements (at least for IAF and IN) were passed and even the right policies for getting the privat Indian industry in the game were initiated by him. So the current government took over from a more than decent level, which is also why, a year without any major procurement, didn't made Indian forces any weaker.
In fact, policy change to invite privat Indian partners, which is the base of the Make in India campaign in defence and the tougher stand against DRDO, were initiated by Antony and now thankfully followed by the NDA government.

Just as his blanket bans were a mistake, it's a mistake to generalize and say everything was bad.

 

[uparyupari]

m.aviationweek.com/defense/india-plans-first-scorpene-submarine-induction-2015

So the delay was caused by the lack of know how of MDL to absorb the techs and provide the necessary infrastructure (which DCNS officials stated in interviews too) and the fact that we see the first sub being ready now, according to the plan from 2012 after the problems was solved, should make it obvious, that the project was monitored way before the new DM came in and that the new MoD had nothing to do with it.

As I keep telling you, it wasn't all as bad as you or the public might "think"! Indian forces are doing pretty good, important upgrades (fighters, subs, transport aircrafts, tanks) were done to keep the modernisation on going, plenty of additional procurements (at least for IAF and IN) were passed and even the right policies for getting the privat Indian industry in the game were initiated by him. So the current government took over from a more than decent level, which is also why, a year without any major procurement, didn't made Indian forces any weaker.
In fact, policy change to invite privat Indian partners, which is the base of the Make in India campaign in defence and the tougher stand against DRDO, were initiated by Antony and now thankfully followed by the NDA government.

Just as his blanket bans were a mistake, it's a mistake to generalize and say everything was bad.

LOL...ever the Congress and Sonia fanboy

 

[babbar]

So who decided to go for a non AIP sub in the 21st century in the first place?

 

[magudi]

The more I hear about Saint Antony's saga the more I get convinced to convinced to convert

 

[uparyupari]

So who decided to go for a non AIP sub in the 21st century in the first place?

AIP technology was not mature back then.

Indian-built Scorpene to carry critical DRDO system - The Hindu

Subs to stay under water for 20 days, says DRDO chief - Pune Mirror

 

[Kinetic]

m.aviationweek.com/defense/india-plans-first-scorpene-submarine-induction-2015

So the delay was caused by the lack of know how of MDL to absorb the techs and provide the necessary infrastructure (which DCNS officials stated in interviews too) and the fact that we see the first sub being ready now, according to the plan from 2012 after the problems was solved, should make it obvious, that the project was monitored way before the new DM came in and that the new MoD had nothing to do with it.

As I keep telling you, it wasn't all as bad as you or the public might "think"! Indian forces are doing pretty good, important upgrades (fighters, subs, transport aircrafts, tanks) were done to keep the modernisation on going, plenty of additional procurements (at least for IAF and IN) were passed and even the right policies for getting the privat Indian industry in the game were initiated by him. So the current government took over from a more than decent level, which is also why, a year without any major procurement, didn't made Indian forces any weaker.
In fact, policy change to invite privat Indian partners, which is the base of the Make in India campaign in defence and the tougher stand against DRDO, were initiated by Antony and now thankfully followed by the NDA government.

Just as his blanket bans were a mistake, it's a mistake to generalize and say everything was bad.

fanboys of 'do-nothing' minister!!

Antony did nothing as a defence minister, other than signing some documents and allowing few purchases. This is not the role of a defence minister.

 

[sancho]

So who decided to go for a non AIP sub in the 21st century in the first place?

The question is not who selected Scorpene, but why? The German U214 offer, was reportedly cheaper, included AIP and might had been easier, since we have similar subs in the fleet and produced them under licence in the past. But would we have got the same level of ToT? Doubtful, since the French are known to be more open to ToT of critical techs. Were techs for our nuclear sub development part of the deal? Could be. Was the fact that the French allowed DRDO to integrate an own AIP a factor? Possible, since the French AIP wasn't ready back then, it might had opened an option to negotiate in favour for the DRDO system.
So while it's bad for the operational side of IN, the deal might had some important points for the industry. The only sad thing is, that we waste all the know how we gained so, if we don't go for a follow Scorpene order or an own SSK development and may start from scratch again, by having to set up infrastructure and a know how base at a new ship yard, possibly even of a different type of sub.

 

[temp1994]

Secondly, why does an SSN need AIP? I think you confused this with something else.

SSN does not need AIP. Where has I stated otherwise?

What I stated was that India could be looking to procure some critical submarine tech in guise of ToT which it could use in its SSN project.

Russia offered the AMUR with VLS and DRDO developed AIP.

Amur has two variants; one with VLS (Amur-950) another with AIP (Amur-1650).


It is not possible to fit both VLS and AIP in same Amur as they occupy same compartment in Amur's design.

Of course submerged range is only 400. It has to surface for oxygen. But range is more than 5000 miles. Three Kilos have enough to go to Hainan and clean out their entire naval base.

Kilo would not survive long at snorkeling depth in SCS and would not make pass PLAN's anti-Sub screen. They do not have capability to remain submerged for longer period, their stealth is outdated, and worst thing is that China knows them inside out which also include Sonar signature.

 

[Srinivas]

There are two assumptions here

1) Either DRDO and other Indian defence organizations are highly motivated to get all kind of tech and know how, integrate them, build the products and looking forward to establish world class R&D and infrastructure here in India.

2) MoD has no idea of how to procure defence toys, they are clueless and are doing the past mistakes again.

These times are very crucial, on one side rising China and on the other side we have Pakistan which is backed by China and other countries. Till now we do not have even a decent airforce leave about technological edge.

And these guys are still stuck on signing deals ,investigating corruption and black listing firms.

The question is not who selected Scorpene, but why? The German U214 offer, was reportedly cheaper, included AIP and might had been easier, since we have similar subs in the fleet and produced them under licence in the past. But would we have got the same level of ToT? Doubtful, since the French are known to be more open to ToT of critical techs. Were techs for our nuclear sub development part of the deal? Could be. Was the fact that the French allowed DRDO to integrate an own AIP a factor? Possible, since the French AIP wasn't ready back then, it might had opened an option to negotiate in favour for the DRDO system.
So while it's bad for the operational side of IN, the deal might had some important points for the industry. The only sad thing is, that we waste all the know how we gained so, if we don't go for a follow Scorpene order or an own SSK development and may start from scratch again, by having to set up infrastructure and a know how base at a new ship yard, possibly even of a different type of sub.

 

[sancho]

Antony did nothing as a defence minister, other than signing some documents and allowing few purchases.

If that would be true, why was Arun Jaitley not even capable of doing the same and signing some documents to actually purchase something too? Why didn't he changed the DPP like Antony did or like Parrikar now wants to do it, to give MoD a proper direction? Why couldn't he invite a single additional Indian privat player to the Avro tender, than Antony could? Why is his sole track record of 6 month as the DM, to do the same DAC clearances, that Antony passed in his last 6 months anyway?

There are two assumptions here

1) Either DRDO and other Indian defence organizations are highly motivated to get all kind of tech and know how, integrate them, build the products and looking forward to establish world class R&D and infrastructure here in India.

2) MoD has no idea of how to procure defence toys.

It's a mix of both imo. IF there was critical techs involved in the deal, that benefits our SSN/SSBN developments, the Scorpene choice was not bad, but we should had procured AIP modules from DCNS, as soon as the production delay was evident. That at least would had given IN 2 ot 3 state of the are SSK's as and a save stop gap till the indigenous system is ready and implemented into the latter 3. But one problem for the procurement side is, that we don't use the option clause that is implemented in the DPP, to get 50% (in this case 3 more subs) right away, without holding a new tender. That would had made the P75 Scorpene production line worth it, even if we select a different P75I, or had given us time to develop an own SSK, based on the know how of the Scorpene and the indigenous know how we already have.

 

[Srinivas]

It's a mix of both imo. IF there was critical techs involved in the deal, that benefits our SSN/SSBN developments, the Scorpene choice was not bad, but we should had procured AIP modules from DCNS, as soon as the production delay was evident. That at least would had given IN 2 ot 3 state of the are SSK's as and a save stop gap till the indigenous system is ready and implemented into the latter 3. But one problem for the procurement side is, that we don't use the option clause that is implemented in the DPP, to get 50% (in this case 3 more subs) right away, without holding a new tender. That would had made the P75 Scorpene production line worth it, even if we select a different P75I, or had given us time to develop an own SSK, based on the know how of the Scorpene and the indigenous know how we already have.

I think by not opting for AIP, they are planning to use the same tech to design SSN. Based on the current hull structure and other designs.