India's Demand for Russia to Transfer Tech on PAK FA: Practical or Preposterous?

[PakEye]

About twice the number of operational F16/JF17 combined ie

And where as the JF17 and F16 mlu come with no HMD/HOBS missles the indian MKI comes fully loaded for both BVR & WVR dog fighting

what is the number of grounded SU30mki for engine failure ???

 

[Storm Force]

what is the number of grounded SU30mki for engine failure ???

Engine Failure

LOL LOL

Tell us about the ancient RD33 on the Thunders

 

[New World]

Pakistanis getting all hot and bothered about indo Russian contractual negotiation for fgfa.

Russia will bend guaranteed
India will forgo export rights for 50% percent tot. Both sides will get part of what they want

Or alternative is bad very bad for Russia
there arms industry will simply fall to third rate well behind France Israel UK and USA .

You just don't annoy
The fourth biggest military power in the world who has the sixth largest gdp on the planet with a huge market for imported weapons .

It would be suicide for Russia

seems like Russian Federation is only living on money they earned from export of military equipment to india.

what is the number of grounded SU30mki for engine failure ???

more than the twice of combine F-16/JF-17 ie.

 

[LOGICAL BOSSS]

Can India get back its 295 millon $ paid initially for this project ????

The Russians are about to piss off the biggest arms importer of military hardware in the world.

Russia is a also RAN now in arms exports

INDIA IS DELIBERATLY moving way from Russia having had their arses burned ib Gorskhov fiasco and spares and serviceability of both the MIG29 and the SU30MKI

India will ditch the FGFA and SPEND the $25 billion on MORE rafales AS A STOP GAP and pour money into LCA and AMCA development probablt bringing LOCKHEED MARTIN as partners and consultants

RUSSIA can find a new buyer that spends $100 billion over the next ten years

india $100 billion going to ISRAEL FRANCE & USA

Why so much hate in your post towards Russia ?
Its a normal business !! As suitation changes India actually dosent need this project anymore unlike in past where Russia was the only country ready to share there advanced Tech with India. Thats why India demanding tech Transfer and other kinds of Talks, No body in this world will share this with Customer ........

But as we all know unlike USA or French, Russians are needy bunch which already sold there tech to china there is possiblity to extract TOT from them. So, anyhow if they out of need say yes then its a good deal for us.

Same time India is also in talks with grippen to co develop 5th gen AMCA and navel Varient Atogether taking forward current deal if materialized.
I feel grippen has now much better chances then F 16 considering there more readiablity and need as well to work together with DRDO and HAL in future and share TOT as well.
My take India should not go for FGFA anyhow, Joint development with sweden far far better way to move forward.

 

[Storm Force]

seems like Russian Federation is only living on money they earned from export of military equipment to india.



more than the twice of combine F-16/JF-17 ie.

NOW DONT START LOSING SLEEP over THE 250+ SU30MKI in service in indian air force

AND look how those Indians treat the RUSSIANS NOW

 

[New World]

View attachment 383167

View attachment 383168

View attachment 383169

NOW DONT START LOSING SLEEP over THE 250+ SU30MKI in service in indian air force

AND look how those Indians treat the RUSSIANS NOW

View attachment 383170

240 are total mki manufactured yet and only 60% of them are operational...

and if you are thinking to mess with superpower(Russia) then you are doing a grave mistake..

R u graduated from some madrassa ? CHINA HAS MONEY TREE from where it pricks and handover Many billions of dollers to Russia ?

their trade surplus is more than 300 billion dollar.
FDI is nearly 70-80 billion dollar

 

[Storm Force]

240 are total mki manufactured yet and only 60% of them are operational...

LET ME EDUCATE YOU 60% operationally is peace and this is high by international standards.

If you think war time operations is the same your are deluding yourself.

HOW MANY F16 will you have operational in a war with india ......... you think USA will send in spares.

THINK AGAIN

Your going to use a handful of block 52 what 16 or 18 against 250 su30mki

YEAH OK carry on

 

[Star Expedition]

India has talents and funds, only has not decisiveness

Only when she can build fighters herself, she can become a real power

 

[faithfulguy]

So india Failed

IS THIS WHY IAF TODAY FIELD 250 su30mki of which 187 where assembled in india
is this why india send 100S OF SATALITES into space
Is this why india inducted a nuclear powered submarine
is this why india is inducting a 40,000 tonne indengious carrier

Most important is thjis why india exports software IT services earning $90 billion per year

THINK before you write

Of the 90 billion, the majority is tech support or consulting business by providing temporary Indian engineers to western companies. Tell me a major Indian software company that produce its own product?

 

[soundHound]

I won't say Russian and Indian friendship is based only on money. Russia can't be that greedy. After all now they've say in Middle east and to some extent has access to CPEC as well. All will help Russian economy.
Its because of India going to close to US. That's the main problem otherwise Russia won't wait a bit to transfer you guys the technology. Don't mind, what you're telling me is just a lame excuse.

Finally the CPEC word, it's like panacea or something for every thing in world.

I remember Pakistani Air chief marshal one saying we had the option of technology transfer for euro fighter as well when we chose JF 17. reason was simple our industry was not yet ready to absorb and reproduce such advance aircraft. i am not sure if India is still capable to absorb a 5th generation aircraft.

Euro fighter tot, from where Pandora?

India is not asking tot for PAKFA rather FGFA where india is ready to invest and Co develop, what's a wrong if TOT is asked?

 

[mrrehan]

Sources from the Indian Defense Ministry have told The Times of India that Delhi would participate in the joint development of a new PAK FA-derived fifth gen fighter in cooperation with Russia only if the Russian side included full-scale technology transfer as part of the deal. Russian experts are divided over the implications of this ultimatum.
Only last month, Vladimir Drozhzhov, deputy director of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, the agency charged with regulating military-technical cooperation with other countries, told Sputnik that Russia and India had agreed on a draft contract for the joint development of a new fifth-generation aircraft, the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) derived from Russia's Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) stealth multirole fighter.

However, on Thursday, the Times of India reported, citing Defense Ministry sources, that Delhi is conditioning the signing of such a deal with Russia on a full-scale transfer of technology, including the fighter's source codes. In addition, the Indian side is demanding that the FGFA project should directly aid a separate program, India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, as well.

"This is mandatory. A high-level committee headed by an Air Marshal from the Indian Air Force, which includes an Indian Institute of Technology-Kanpur professor and former chiefs of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and National Aerospace Laboratories, is examining all these aspects," a source told the newspaper. "The government will take a call after the report is submitted in April," the source added.

The source complained that Sukhoi's previous contract with Hindustan Aeronautics – involving the delivery of 272 Su-30MKI twinjet multirole air superiority fighters, did not provide for technology transfer; Delhi considers this to have been a miscalculation.

The FGFA project is part of the Make in India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in 2014. Under the deal, Russia's Sukhoi Company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would develop an advanced derivative of the T-50 (PAK FA) fifth generation fighter. The multi-billion dollar project is set to include 43 improvements over the T-50, in areas including engine thrust, stealth capabilities, advanced sensors and onboard avionics, as well as supercruise (sustained supersonic flight) capability. Last year, the two countries agreed to commit $4 billion each to R&D, prototype development, testing and infrastructure for the 127 fighters which India expects to cost a total of $25 billion.

Russian experts are divided over the implications of Delhi's ultimatum.

Speaking to Radio Sputnik, Col. (ret) Andrei Golovatyuk, military observer and senior member of the Russian Officers Union, explained that the issue of technology transfer in general is an extremely sensitive one.

"By transferring our technology, we are creating the conditions in the recipient country to stop purchasing our military equipment over the next 10-15 years, and to use our technology to develop its own instead," the officer said. "This is about the same thing that happened with China in the past. In the 1950s and 1960s, we gave them a number of military technologies, and subsequently Beijing made a huge step forward in the development of weapons and military equipment."

"Something similar could now happen with India," Golovatyuk said. "Of course, this is a very delicate issue – both from the diplomatic and the military-technical perspective. If these are today's technologies, and we have next generation technologies in the wings, then it may be advisable to consider their transfer." Otherwise, the logic is that perhaps Moscow should hold off making the transfer.

The issue is further complicated, the expert noted, by the fact that military-technical cooperation with India is very important for Russia. "There is a saying: 'nature abhors a vacuum'. If we were to 'leave' India, the vacuum would immediately be occupied by the Americans, the Germans, the British or the Chinese, who are moving forward in leaps and bounds toward developing their own military equipment."

"India," Golovatyuk stressed, "occupies one of the leading positions in the purchase of Russian arms and military equipment, and we cannot lose this market. Therefore, we should weigh everything very carefully when making a decision."

For his part, prominent Russian military observer Viktor Litovkin is convinced that Delhi's ultimatum is just a bargaining tactic. India, he noted, "simply doesn't want to pay for a fifth-generation aircraft, and is coming up with all sorts of excuses. In fact, they are demanding that Russia give them all the technology for the plane, which can then be built in India's own plants. That is, they want ultra-modern equipment and technology for a hill of beans."

Litovkin stressed that Sukhoi need not concern themselves too much with the Indian side's demands, pointing out that Russia's Indian partners have always held to the tactic of bargaining for the lowest-possible price.

"Some time ago, they bought our aircraft carrier [the Baku, now known as the INS Vikramaditya] for the price of scrap metal," the expert recalled. They wanted us to make it into a super battle-ready warship. We explained that an aircraft carrier is an expensive combat system, and that it was impossible to acquire it for a red cent. They made a lot of noise about it, but ultimately ended up paying."

Ultimately, Litovkin too said that troubles or not, cooperation with India brings out the best in Russian designers. "In general, we should be forthcoming, listen to their complaints, but calmly proceed to do our work," the expert noted. "Yes, on the other hand, they can be cranky, but on the other hand, it's good for us: they force us to bustle about, to think about how to fulfill the tasks that they set for us."

"Everything will turn out ok," the observer emphasized. "We will make them a fifth generation plane. They just need to pay."

Finally, Mikhail Alexandrov, a senior expert at the Center for Military-Political Studies at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations, pointed out that full-scale technology transfer is outside the practice of any country engaged in the creation of advanced weaponry.

"No state engages in the export of cutting edge weapons systems– especially systems which are still under development. And no one ever sells the technology behind these systems – it simply isn't done," the expert stressed.

Moscow, Alexandrov noted, must clearly and calmly emphasize to its Indian partners "that there are no other countries – the French or the Americans included, willing to share their tech and the intricacies of their aircraft [with India]. I think it's to Delhi's advantage to deal with Russia as things are. We offer them more than other countries, including participation in joint projects, which offers a chance to learn, plus the opportunity to assemble the planes themselves in Indian plants. I do not believe it is worth going beyond that."
https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051455656-russian-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-dispute/

* Indians leanness towards America.
* Indians resistance to expansion from BRICS or BRCS +, because Pakistan is there.
* No on in the world can do TOT with Indian. The level of technology that F-22, T-50, J31 or F-35 alike not even America. Purchasing some F-35 is another story.
* Russia needs to expand their relation and economy too.
* Russia have done this sort of TOT agreement in past with china, but they don't like to do the same for India.
* If Russia say NO to TOT then where India will go to get it? No where. Russia know it as well.
* Even working on T-50 project altogether is a leap for India and only option to access the technology in time.

India is not in position to DEMAND T-50 technology, as this is not a cake.

 

[Storm Force]

India is not in position to DEMAND T-50 technology, as this is not a cake.[/QUOTE]

India cannot afford to give 4billion dollars on a project which is inferior at present to dassiult rafale

 

[faithfulguy]

India will pay for part of the development. In return, Russia will build the plane and sell it back to India with limited TOT. But if India is looking for total TOT, Its a pipe dream that will never happen. India will end up waiting in line for F-35 10-20 years down the road while Pakistani stealth fighters roam the skies if India with impunity.

India need to know that it's a technically backward country in the level of Somalia begging Russian assistance with tech support income.

@waz can you remove the negative check mark as it's done without warrant.

 

[Sucha Kuggu]

India's most of defense deals are to blackmail that country on taking harsh stance against Pakistan, In case the same country goes ahead with some deals with Pakistan.

 

[Saif-ud-Din Qutuz]

Finally the CPEC word, it's like panacea or something for every thing in world.

Well it indeed is something big. It's better to accept the reality rather than arguing about it. All countries are interested in CPEC. If it's not something big, why all countries are interested in CPEC? As our adversary, I can understand your stance but saying CPEC is not something big is a very naive statement.