India's Cold Start Is Too Hot

[ziaulislam]

unforttuneatly for india pakistan is not small sate that it can easily bully..we have population of 200 million..and have a strong militery..if their is a war..we can hold our ground..

people usually think of 71 but forget the odds..the reason we failed in 71 was not only being outnumbered heavily (1 million troops to 60,000 troops; 30,000 civilian workers) but laso the complete lack of public support

the bangladeshi fighters alone could have easily toppled the 60,000 troops without the indian support.. india just walked in to get itself glory..otherwise a few years back in 1965 the picture was completly different.

one last thing is people talk of techn ..india was been way ahead and will be ahead in techn in past and present ..
in 1971 india were operating a generation ahead of fighter airplanes then we were..same goes for their navy or landforces
today the techn gap has relativly closed in.

 

[The enlightened]

Till the politician are rulling pakistan , I think there will be no WAR with India.

Pakistani Politician should pray that there is no big terrorist attack on India as they cannot control it.

If there is then end of Political system in Pakistan and another dictatorship.

I think after the Speech from Hafiz sayeed they will be some young and hot blood want to become a Martyrs.

We should stop these radical and look for better friendship and prosperity.

Even if there is a big terrorist attack, I doubt if the UPA government would do anything much about it. Even our intel agencies have failed repeatedly, all they seem to do is come after the attack has taken place, and tell that so and so material in so and so quantity was used by these terrorists and they may belong to so and so organization. I know that they have actually prevented a lot of attacks from materializing but the numbers of terrorist activities that slips past them is just unacceptable. Coming back to the govt. , they just don't have the b@LL$, though it ain't a bad thing either. We must focus on our economic devolopement, while quietly enhancing the capabilities of our intelligence agencies so much so that they can bleed pakistan from the inside, incase of another mishap. But presently I just don't see it happening. Just too many security reforms are caught up in the Red Tape.
I don't see the pakistani side much capable of change either. They will continue to let these terrorists operate freely and even a Imran Khan can't do $%^t about it.

 

[SQ8]

I don't see the pakistani side much capable of change either. They will continue to let these terrorists operate freely and even a Imran Khan can't do $%^t about it.

Not up to Imran Khan..
These terrorists are hiding behind religion.. its their greatest cover.
A majority of pakistanis are completely ignorant about their own beliefs.
As such they are afraid to question or raise voices against them as only a few Quranic verses thrown about leaves them baffled.
While the verses and their translation/interpretation may be absolutely irrelevant to the subject.. the effect of hearing/reading Quran leaves them speechless as they have no knowledge to contest the disinformation.

Yet.. as religion is a powerful "motivator" in Pakistani society.. it helps these terrorists recruit mindless drones.
Would it surprise you to know that even "Kajra re"(from Bunty and babli) was used to spread hate against India.
Here's the surprising example..
the song 'Kajra re' has a verse which says "Kali Kabli waley ko yaad kar ke.." if you have heard it and recall.
Now from the times of united India and various Qawwalis and other praise of the Prophet Mohammed he has been referred to as the "Kali Kabli waley" as he is known to have worn a black shawl... whether or not the song reffered to it, the Mullah at this particular mosque not too far away from the old Indian consulate in karachi was decrying the song as an attempt to blaspheme the prophet and called for severe punishment and death to the "Kaffirs" who composed it and to all those "Murtids(those who forsake Islam)" who listened to it. How do you contest that? How can you ask ANYONE to guarantee that such loose cannons can be brought in control and that one of them will not end up doing something ridiculous and inhumane??
Pakistan is going through turmoil.. and India is now not under focused threat from a single entity, but from splintered nutjobs.
At this time, its best bet is to do its best to help democracy in Pakistan and cautiously work for a stalemate solution. Kashmir does not need to be on the cards.. all that has to be done is to assure the PA that India no longer wishes to harm Pakistan as long as there is no establishment effort to harm India.
There need be no hugs.. no kisses. just a quiet closing of the window that opens to the noisy neighbors house.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Huh Santro, when do the terrorists that killed so many Pakistanis take cover behind religion? They always said that by aiding American occupiers of their land (they don't consider Afghanistan exactly foreign as you know), Pakistanis had become American occupiers themselves. Read their statements in local media.

 

[pmukherjee]

Not up to Imran Khan..
These terrorists are hiding behind religion.. its their greatest cover.
A majority of pakistanis are completely ignorant about their own beliefs.
As such they are afraid to question or raise voices against them as only a few Quranic verses thrown about leaves them baffled.
While the verses and their translation/interpretation may be absolutely irrelevant to the subject.. the effect of hearing/reading Quran leaves them speechless as they have no knowledge to contest the disinformation.

Yet.. as religion is a powerful "motivator" in Pakistani society.. it helps these terrorists recruit mindless drones.
Would it surprise you to know that even "Kajra re"(from Bunty and babli) was used to spread hate against India.
Here's the surprising example..
the song 'Kajra re' has a verse which says "Kali Kabli waley ko yaad kar ke.." if you have heard it and recall.
Now from the times of united India and various Qawwalis and other praise of the Prophet Mohammed he has been referred to as the "Kali Kabli waley" as he is known to have worn a black shawl... whether or not the song reffered to it, the Mullah at this particular mosque not too far away from the old Indian consulate in karachi was decrying the song as an attempt to blaspheme the prophet and called for severe punishment and death to the "Kaffirs" who composed it and to all those "Murtids(those who forsake Islam)" who listened to it. How do you contest that? How can you ask ANYONE to guarantee that such loose cannons can be brought in control and that one of them will not end up doing something ridiculous and inhumane??
Pakistan is going through turmoil.. and India is now not under focused threat from a single entity, but from splintered nutjobs.
At this time, its best bet is to do its best to help democracy in Pakistan and cautiously work for a stalemate solution. Kashmir does not need to be on the cards.. all that has to be done is to assure the PA that India no longer wishes to harm Pakistan as long as there is no establishment effort to harm India.
There need be no hugs.. no kisses. just a quiet closing of the window that opens to the noisy neighbors house.

Excellent post.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Not up to Imran Khan..
These terrorists are hiding behind religion.. its their greatest cover.
A majority of pakistanis are completely ignorant about their own beliefs.
As such they are afraid to question or raise voices against them as only a few Quranic verses thrown about leaves them baffled.
While the verses and their translation/interpretation may be absolutely irrelevant to the subject.. the effect of hearing/reading Quran leaves them speechless as they have no knowledge to contest the disinformation.

Yet.. as religion is a powerful "motivator" in Pakistani society.. it helps these terrorists recruit mindless drones.
Would it surprise you to know that even "Kajra re"(from Bunty and babli) was used to spread hate against India.
Here's the surprising example..
the song 'Kajra re' has a verse which says "Kali Kabli waley ko yaad kar ke.." if you have heard it and recall.
Now from the times of united India and various Qawwalis and other praise of the Prophet Mohammed he has been referred to as the "Kali Kabli waley" as he is known to have worn a black shawl... whether or not the song reffered to it, the Mullah at this particular mosque not too far away from the old Indian consulate in karachi was decrying the song as an attempt to blaspheme the prophet and called for severe punishment and death to the "Kaffirs" who composed it and to all those "Murtids(those who forsake Islam)" who listened to it. How do you contest that? How can you ask ANYONE to guarantee that such loose cannons can be brought in control and that one of them will not end up doing something ridiculous and inhumane??
Pakistan is going through turmoil.. and India is now not under focused threat from a single entity, but from splintered nutjobs.
At this time, its best bet is to do its best to help democracy in Pakistan and cautiously work for a stalemate solution. Kashmir does not need to be on the cards.. all that has to be done is to assure the PA that India no longer wishes to harm Pakistan as long as there is no establishment effort to harm India.
There need be no hugs.. no kisses. just a quiet closing of the window that opens to the noisy neighbors house.

I agree with much of your points, the same argument is true of most "religious" terrorists all over the world. The "scholars" preaching such hanous crimes are nothing but bigoted, ignorant hate filled cowards. However regarding your point to peace with India, it seems to me that, to a large extent, India is pretty much following your script verbatim. Additionally whilst many would fear the CSD for being "Pakistan-centric" it is far from it, as the Indian COAS has said countless times, the Army is a theatre based force and as such as contingencies and plans for all theatres and the CSD is just one contingency. The IA also has plans for airborne humanitarian assistance, intervention, force protection, infrastructure protection etc you can't expect the IA to leave their country defenceless and open to attack surely.


And surely your suggestions only work if Pakistan is willing/able to sort out her own internal issues them self?

 

[SQ8]

Huh Santro, when do the terrorists that killed so many Pakistanis take cover behind religion? They always said that by aiding American occupiers of their land (they don't consider Afghanistan exactly foreign as you know), Pakistanis had become American occupiers themselves. Read their statements in local media.

Hmm.. I remember one or two statements in the media that had that tone and those too did not leave religion out of it.

 

[SQ8]

And surely your suggestions only work if Pakistan is willing/able to sort out her own internal issues them self?

Pakistan's issues at the current are focused on the very nature of its existence.. a question that was partially asked in 71 but never paid attention to.
Is Pakistan to exist BECAUSE India exists?
The massive turmoil in the country both in religion and ethnicity is begging for an answer.
Pakistan does not have to answer a thing.. the land is ancient.. it breeds and grows excellent humans on a whole.
I think the question needs to be rephrased to are Pakistanis willing/able to sort out their issues by themselves without blaming and/or asking others for help?
But there is a need.. and when I say need.. I mean urgent selfless empathy.. the sort that doesnt really exist in this world for Indians to realize this internal conflict and do the best thing they can in this situation. Stay away, keep yourself safe.. but avoid confrontation as MUCH as possible. You are dealing with a nation which is analogous to a good,decent human being that has fallen prey to the ills of society.. drugs, booze , gambling ...bad relationships and apparently also has some form of cancer.
It needs basic encouragement for its conscience to sort itself out... but antagonizing it will not only make it worse for itself but for all that are close to it.
This is a family that needs to be left alone to decide where they want to go and how they want to go.
If they want to split.. let it be.. one cannot predict what disasters it will bring(or not)
if they want to try staying together and fix their house.. let it be... one cannot predict what good it will bring(or not)
However if you interfere.. try to push them towards any side.. chances are that you too will be caught in the domestic troubles that plagues the house and may be hurt badly.
Smile at them, say "all is well" and close the window. One member from the house throws trash at you , be firm but polite in your angst and warnings of consequence, it might even cause somebody else from the house to take the offending member to task.
But first and foremost, detach yourself..

Even for those looking for some torture of Pakistan(i-s): I have the same advice.. NOTHING burns nationalistic Pakistanis more than seeing a prospering India. Your taunts to them mean naught.. your praise by another party means the world.

Doctrines(or false ones) like cold start and belligerent statements do not "fix" Pakistan, it only ignites anti-India sentiments and makes you the target of the blames for their ills. which gives an imploding(exploding) situation a few more years or months of delay.

P.S Abidongboy.. there are statements by the current IA COAS that have pointed to actions directly against Pakistan.. such as the one about being in Rawalpindi within two days was it..

 

[The enlightened]

P.S Abidongboy.. there are statements by the current IA COAS that have pointed to actions directly against Pakistan.. such as the one about being in Rawalpindi within two days was it..

Could you please explain the quoted part, didn't get it at all.
Btw another great post

 

[thinkingcap81]

@Santro

Why so negative? Of late this is what you seem to try to make everyone hear. A bit like MastanKhan.

At present since i live in a rapidly improving country the vast multitude of the have-nots of my motherland is somewhat divorced from my daily thoughts --- it is as though i know they will eventually get better --- not the best idea but still...

The all pervasive negative thoughts even in people like you --- young and supposed to be full of life --- is the greatest danger any country can have. The supposedly rational powers that cause and perpetuate such dismal thoughts must realize this --- for they make the future a slave of the present.

 

[IND151]

First.. what the hell was that post or where was it from?

Second: there are weak sectors on both sides which is analyzed by them from time to time.
India has the advantage of having an economy to reinforce the weak without compromising the strong.
Pakistan cannot match that.. to strengthen a weak sector, some resources from the strong have to be reassigned.

sir, i meant

Pak may have survelliance on all border but we can find some places where its defences are weak. these places will face IBG thrust.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

Pakistan's issues at the current are focused on the very nature of its existence.. a question that was partially asked in 71 but never paid attention to.
Is Pakistan to exist BECAUSE India exists?
The massive turmoil in the country both in religion and ethnicity is begging for an answer.
Pakistan does not have to answer a thing.. the land is ancient.. it breeds and grows excellent humans on a whole.
I think the question needs to be rephrased to are Pakistanis willing/able to sort out their issues by themselves without blaming and/or asking others for help?
But there is a need.. and when I say need.. I mean urgent selfless empathy.. the sort that doesnt really exist in this world for Indians to realize this internal conflict and do the best thing they can in this situation. Stay away, keep yourself safe.. but avoid confrontation as MUCH as possible. You are dealing with a nation which is analogous to a good,decent human being that has fallen prey to the ills of society.. drugs, booze , gambling ...bad relationships and apparently also has some form of cancer.
It needs basic encouragement for its conscience to sort itself out... but antagonizing it will not only make it worse for itself but for all that are close to it.
This is a family that needs to be left alone to decide where they want to go and how they want to go.
If they want to split.. let it be.. one cannot predict what disasters it will bring(or not)
if they want to try staying together and fix their house.. let it be... one cannot predict what good it will bring(or not)
However if you interfere.. try to push them towards any side.. chances are that you too will be caught in the domestic troubles that plagues the house and may be hurt badly.
Smile at them, say "all is well" and close the window. One member from the house throws trash at you , be firm but polite in your angst and warnings of consequence, it might even cause somebody else from the house to take the offending member to task.
But first and foremost, detach yourself..

Even for those looking for some torture of Pakistan(i-s): I have the same advice.. NOTHING burns nationalistic Pakistanis more than seeing a prospering India. Your taunts to them mean naught.. your praise by another party means the world.

Doctrines(or false ones) like cold start and belligerent statements do not "fix" Pakistan, it only ignites anti-India sentiments and makes you the target of the blames for their ills. which gives an imploding(exploding) situation a few more years or months of delay.

P.S Abidongboy.. there are statements by the current IA COAS that have pointed to actions directly against Pakistan.. such as the one about being in Rawalpindi within two days was it..

Great introspective post, I must say.. though a little too negative in my view.. But sir, the last line is a surprise to me.. I am not sure if any Indian COAS has recently made comments about reaching Pindi in 2 days.. I may have missed it and will appreciate if you point me to a source.. thx..

 

[SQ8]

@Santro

Why so negative? Of late this is what you seem to try to make everyone hear. A bit like MastanKhan.

At present since i live in a rapidly improving country the vast multitude of the have-nots of my motherland is somewhat divorced from my daily thoughts --- it is as though i know they will eventually get better --- not the best idea but still...

The all pervasive negative thoughts even in people like you --- young and supposed to be full of life --- is the greatest danger any country can have. The supposedly rational powers that cause and perpetuate such dismal thoughts must realize this --- for they make the future a slave of the present.

Great introspective post, I must say.. though a little too negative in my view.. But sir, the last line is a surprise to me.. I am not sure if any Indian COAS has recently made comments about reaching Pindi in 2 days.. I may have missed it and will appreciate if you point me to a source.. thx..

It is true, my statements have been increasingly acerbic when it comes to my country.. or rather my countrymen.
The reason has been slightly personal as well since I was involved and witness to the apathy of many "drawing room" gossipers who refused to contribute for a noble cause(Arfa). They were willing to talk the talk.. support change either by IK or Musharraf...or even Hizbi organizations. But could only make bellicose statements.
Initial attempts to urge them to move through reason seem to have failed... its time to hit them where it hurts. Show them the mirror in a last ditch attempt to awaken some sort of concience.
You see.. the uneducated masses never move a nation( many will try to give the example of the advent of Islam.. but they should read up on multiple histories of the prophet and his companions before making such statements). The blind always need the one eyed man to tell them where to go. It is the moral responsibility now.. nay.. it is compulsory now for every educated and ethical Pakistani to start moving to make a change.. attending a rally/concert is no movement. If you wish for change through democracy.. spread the awareness to vote.. spread the awareness to value your vote and fight for it.
If you wish to end corruption.. stop paying bribes to policemen.. spend the 5 hours of hell they will give you for not doing so...but do it publicly and do it with pride.
All those men and women of small and big drawing rooms.. of CEO's and assistant engineers would not do more than just talk about Arfa's inability to get treatment abroad. The Media giants did not take my calls for plea's for a single chartered aircraft to be equipped with a ventilator(WHICH WAS DONE FOR PAGARA through the prodding of the GoP).
When reason fails.. use whatever means necessarily in a last ditch attempt to make people move.
Let me be clear.. I love my countrymen.. there is no one like them in this world.. and no one.. in my view that can match them ppound for pound in intelligence and bravery. But being intelligent.. does not save your from being stupid.
I have seen too many intelligent people surpassed by shrewd simpletons who used their opportunistic luck.
We need to shake ourselves up.. those waiting for some miracle or punishment by god for an awakening call for this nation will find that it came, did the damage and is now gone with the future of the country in tatters(as it is).

I am not the same bitter and cynical person when I meet the less privileged and less educated class of my nation.. as they are ignorant and deserve my patience..and not the opposite..rather I have softened up even more to them.

As for the statement of the IA Chief.. I erred in mistaking Lt-gen Lamba for the Chief..who has been more cautious.

This is thread discussing general Lamba's provocative statements:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/42831-india-getting-ready-fight-china-pakistan-simultaneously-indian-army-chief-41.html

 

[thinkingcap81]

...I was involved and witness to the apathy of many "drawing room" gossipers who refused to contribute for a noble cause(Arfa). They were willing to talk the talk.....

Don't we all know them... except we do not have the guts to realize that we could well be one of them.

I am currently doing my PhD at one of the best science institutes in India and probably the best in my field in India, and i am shocked at the lack of concern, guts and extreme selfishness shown by those in charge. Even more flummoxed by my colleagues who have accepted the status quo and do not try to improve/change.

It is hard to challenge yourself. But how do you serve your motherland if you think you are serving --- only by doing all the rotten things and furthering nothing but your self-interest?

A tragedy of epic proportions --- and that is an understatement.

 

[KRAIT]

Don't we all know them... except we do not have the guts to realize that we could well be one of them.

I am currently doing my PhD at one of the best science institutes in India and probably the best in my field in India, and i am shocked at the lack of concern, guts and extreme selfishness shown by those in charge. Even more flummoxed by my colleagues who have accepted the status quo and do not try to improve/change.

It is hard to challenge yourself. But how do you serve your motherland if you think you are serving --- only by doing all the rotten things and furthering nothing but your self-interest?

A tragedy of epic proportions --- and that is an understatement.

Goodluck for ur thesis and publications.

Fellow researcher

Cheers.