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India's Cold Start Is Too Hot


I did! And it says ... and I quote "Pakistan also considers transferring production of this system from China." even in links provided by yourself.

Insofar as production of the said system by Pakistan goes, there is no reference available and is speculative at best. Why would China offer a ToT of a major foreign currency/leverage provider for free?

When I asked for reference from jungi, it was to his claims for having the same produced in Pakistan, as such still considering the production at home and doing so is a different aspect. So shall be grateful if you could provide me with the links of some source saying Pakistan is infact producing them and not only simply evaluating and thinking of getting a ToT.
 
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I agree it appears this is what the plan is, but India is not even close to obtaining that fire power that is required to break through and overwhelm the PA defenders. Your assumption has a major flaw because it takes into account the modernization that the IA is going through, but fails to factor in the modernization PA has taken upon to counter the IA

Ok. IA has no firepower and we have not factored your modernization!


Okay so for arguments sake, lets say the IBG's break through and capture 60 km of Pakistani territory. Now they are sitting there static, there is nothing that is stopping the PA from regrouping. Unless the IBG's break through and continue driving down to Islamabad keeping the attack momentum, there is nothing that will stop the PA from regrouping. Your failing to see the flaw in this doctrine, unless the IBG's keep the attack momentum, there is nothing that is stopping the PA from regrouping and launching a counter attack.

Ok IA has to go to Islamabad too.

Excellent; move them forward, i will personally send a 'Thank You' note to the Indian Army. The PAF can simply launch its stand off weapons at these supply depots or the PA can shell them with either rockets or artillery, i cant believe the IA would implement a policy such as this. Sorry to say India does not has the capability to establish long secure supply lines inside the enemy territory, it simply does not has the infrastructure in place to do that. Take it with a pinch of salt when i say this, Indian Army is good very good for the likes of a 3rd World Nation, but is no way near capable of fighting warfare deep inside enemy territory like NATO or Former USSR.

Fair enough. IAF does not exist and PAF has complete air superiority. In addittion stockpiling has been done in open for PA arty to hit easily! Send the thank you note!!!!

Putting in Tier II troops is contrary to what the CDS suggests, but if IA does plan to bring in its Holding Corps in to the battlefield, this changes the whole scenario. As soon as you put your Holding Corps on alert, it will take atleast 24-48 hours for them to prepare and get ready for the war. This activity will not go unnoticed by PA and they will put their forces on full alert. The element of surprise is gone and the PA defenders would be ready and waiting for the attack.

The moment you said Holding Corps, you lost my respect. There is nothing called a HOLDING CORPS anymore in Indian Army. The same is now called a Pivot Corps.

If you look at the axis of advances, there is only Sindh where the Indians can fight a mobile battlefield. Punjab is full of canals, the PA defenders and the natural soil will serve as a barrier to Indian advancement thus the battles are going to be much more static. Sindh-Rajashtan is where the real action is going to take place, and trust me the PA has enough armoured/mechanized/infantry assets in Sindh to ensure to beat any multiple attacks. Thus, for India to launch a full mechanized war, the most tempting option is to launch an attack from the desert.

Really? Only Sindh? Well I do know the axis, all of them, but then thats not in public fora so sorry cant discuss.

It is sufficient but not sufficient enough to cater to the doctrine that the IA is envisioning. I fail to understand how does India has the advantage in employing its artillery. The Indians would have to move up their tubed artillery with their limited SP artillery, and setting up the tubed artillery takes time. While on the other hand PA which has enough 203MM and 155MM artillery already set up, as soon as the Indians cross the border they will start blasting towards advancing Indian Armour Formations and trust me on this one, they will be deadly accurate as this has been proved in several exercises and the operations against the TTP in FATA. The American, Chinese and Turkish artillery in our possession is very accurate and they use excellent guidance systems. So no you dont have a slight edge in the artillery department and neither do you have the capability to neutralize it in the opening phases of the war. You had the Smerch, but that option has been cancelled out.

Am sure all your arty guns are fielded to blunt all offensive actions. And also am sure you have ranged them!!!

I am just looking at the facts on the ground, conducting a few meagre exercises here and there does not change things. I am yet to see any real reorganizations in IA Divisions or Brigade level


Come over and see. Be my guest.

Than you have failed to explain to me how does PA fail to match the IA in a shooting conventional war in a short conflict. You have gone round and round in circles, but have failed to provide me any logical reasoning. I have put forward my arguments, you are more than welcome to do so too.

Since you have outdated info about IA, its no point in discussing.And anyways its Cold Start discussion thread and not IA vs PA war scenario here. What is being done is rationale explanation for the same. You can digest it, or simply fight it.

No arguments there, but India at current does not has the mobility or immense firepower to tame PA in the battlefield. If that was possible, trust me IA Armour Formations would have crossed over to duel out with PA Armour Formations.

And trust me, IA would NEVER do that. Even if another terror strike of Mumbai magnitude takes place. You have dug your graves and you are fighting inside your own homes, why would we be foolish to engage you. What do we get? A dissected state that shall be more unstable than the current Pakistani state giving the nutty islamists to wage war on us with full impunity? Give me a break. Think in logical terms and you shall know why India does not attack you. Its not out of weakness, but out of sheer fun of watching you fight in your own homes against your own people and take your state towards anarchy. Period.
 
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I agree it appears this is what the plan is, but India is not even close to obtaining that fire power that is required to break through and overwhelm the PA defenders. Your assumption has a major flaw because it takes into account the modernization that the IA is going through, but fails to factor in the modernization PA has taken upon to counter the IA



Okay so for arguments sake, lets say the IBG's break through and capture 60 km of Pakistani territory. Now they are sitting there static, there is nothing that is stopping the PA from regrouping. Unless the IBG's break through and continue driving down to Islamabad keeping the attack momentum, there is nothing that will stop the PA from regrouping. Your failing to see the flaw in this doctrine, unless the IBG's keep the attack momentum, there is nothing that is stopping the PA from regrouping and launching a counter attack.



Excellent; move them forward, i will personally send a 'Thank You' note to the Indian Army. The PAF can simply launch its stand off weapons at these supply depots or the PA can shell them with either rockets or artillery, i cant believe the IA would implement a policy such as this. Sorry to say India does not has the capability to establish long secure supply lines inside the enemy territory, it simply does not has the infrastructure in place to do that. Take it with a pinch of salt when i say this, Indian Army is good very good for the likes of a 3rd World Nation, but is no way near capable of fighting warfare deep inside enemy territory like NATO or Former USSR.



Putting in Tier II troops is contrary to what the CDS suggests, but if IA does plan to bring in its Holding Corps in to the battlefield, this changes the whole scenario. As soon as you put your Holding Corps on alert, it will take atleast 24-48 hours for them to prepare and get ready for the war. This activity will not go unnoticed by PA and they will put their forces on full alert. The element of surprise is gone and the PA defenders would be ready and waiting for the attack.

If you look at the axis of advances, there is only Sindh where the Indians can fight a mobile battlefield. Punjab is full of canals, the PA defenders and the natural soil will serve as a barrier to Indian advancement thus the battles are going to be much more static. Sindh-Rajashtan is where the real action is going to take place, and trust me the PA has enough armoured/mechanized/infantry assets in Sindh to ensure to beat any multiple attacks. Thus, for India to launch a full mechanized war, the most tempting option is to launch an attack from the desert.



True, but the use of SF will be essential in my opinion.



It is sufficient but not sufficient enough to cater to the doctrine that the IA is envisioning. I fail to understand how does India has the advantage in employing its artillery. The Indians would have to move up their tubed artillery with their limited SP artillery, and setting up the tubed artillery takes time. While on the other hand PA which has enough 203MM and 155MM artillery already set up, as soon as the Indians cross the border they will start blasting towards advancing Indian Armour Formations and trust me on this one, they will be deadly accurate as this has been proved in several exercises and the operations against the TTP in FATA. The American, Chinese and Turkish artillery in our possession is very accurate and they use excellent guidance systems. So no you dont have a slight edge in the artillery department and neither do you have the capability to neutralize it in the opening phases of the war. You had the Smerch, but that option has been cancelled out.



I am just looking at the facts on the ground, conducting a few meagre exercises here and there does not change things. I am yet to see any real reorganizations in IA Divisions or Brigade level.



For a long static war, if India decides to fight a long static war, Pakistan will loose. So our first strike nuclear doctrine is based to ensure that India does not fights a long static war with us. Indians should have thought about it twice before they decided to explode a nuke.



Than you have failed to explain to me how does PA fail to match the IA in a shooting conventional war in a short conflict. You have gone round and round in circles, but have failed to provide me any logical reasoning. I have put forward my arguments, you are more than welcome to do so too.



No arguments there, but India at current does not has the mobility or immense firepower to tame PA in the battlefield. If that was possible, trust me IA Armour Formations would have crossed over to duel out with PA Armour Formations.

1. You are only arguing keeping army in mind but you are forgetting that CSD have a major element of air force too.

a.) If you look at the acquisition of most advance and lethal CBU-105 cluster bomb by India

b.) The addition of AH-64D Apache Longbow + weaponised Dhurav WSI + LCH.

2. Acquisition of M777 howitzer.

The whole game changes drastically.

3. You are not aware of the infrastructure roads, rail links, bridges, tunnels which have been build in keeping the learning of Op Parakram or the infrastructure projects which we are progressing.

Just to make sure swift operation and maintaining reliable/multiple supply chains.

4.) Whenever there is a debate on CSD you people says that pakistan can move its forces because they and pakistan's assets are near Indian border but when we says that we are also moving many of our assets and forces near pakistani border for swift deployment you poses as a happy men and say that look PA/PAF goona swat them.

You can't have the cake and east it too. So talk real.
 
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Iam actually baying for blood since 26/11 and am yet to be satisfied by that bloodlust.Indians want blood and you know whose

In order to satisfy your blood lust make sure you don't end up paying the price of your country. :lol:
 
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@hellfire. Since clearly you couldn't counter my arguments rationally, you resorted to sarcasm and cheap shots. No need to act like a sore looser that i have ripped your arguments apart, Good Day.

1. You are only arguing keeping army in mind but you are forgetting that CSD have a major element of air force too.

What about the Air Force? Is IAF proficient enough to tame PAF in 72-96 hours? I have my sincere doubts over that. NATO conducted 30 days of intense bombing against Iraq, and even after that Iraqi Air Defence System was intact.

a.) If you look at the acquisition of most advance and lethal CBU-105 cluster bomb by India

PAF has its own cluster bombs, but obviously CBU105 is the most advanced one. But that being said, i fail to understand how is that a game changer. For India to effectively use its CBU 105, it would need complete air superiority. Seeing how things stand, that does not look like a possible scenario.

b.) The addition of AH-64D Apache Longbow + weaponised Dhurav WSI + LCH.

2. Acquisition of M777 howitzer.

The whole game changes drastically.

How are these game changers? Is that enough fire power to tame PA's Armour in battlefield, i dont think so. Look at what the enemy is fielding and what it is capable of doing and you will see what i am talking about.

3. You are not aware of the infrastructure roads, rail links, bridges, tunnels which have been build in keeping the learning of Op Parakram or the infrastructure projects which we are progressing.

Excellent, but is PA sitting static there. No matter how much India tries, it can never beat Pakistan to the border when it comes to mobilization.

4.) Whenever there is a debate on CSD you people says that pakistan can move its forces because they and pakistan's assets are near Indian border but when we says that we are also moving many of our assets and forces near pakistani border for swift deployment you poses as a happy men and say that look PA/PAF goona swat them.

And which genius told you that Pakistan's Armoured Assets are parked right next to the border? PA is not that complacent, the cream assets of our Armoured Core are held back to preserve them in case a war breaks out. If they were parked right next to the border, the Indians would just simply move up the Smerch and cream them from stand off range. What Pakistanis argue that there is no way Indian Armour can beat Pakistan's Mechanized Units to the border.
 
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I did! And it says ... and I quote "Pakistan also considers transferring production of this system from China." even in links provided by yourself.

Insofar as production of the said system by Pakistan goes, there is no reference available and is speculative at best. Why would China offer a ToT of a major foreign currency/leverage provider for free?

When I asked for reference from jungi, it was to his claims for having the same produced in Pakistan, as such still considering the production at home and doing so is a different aspect. So shall be grateful if you could provide me with the links of some source saying Pakistan is infact producing them and not only simply evaluating and thinking of getting a ToT.

Speculations? heck it wasnt even confirmed tht we had procured the system... Untill the joint Drill "azme nau".......... No network or source had even reported abt it!

Also i know tht myself coz they just raised a new unit of the AR1A in the garrison where my father is posted....

Pakistan to Produce A100 MLRS


Authoritative sources from the Pakistani defence industry sector told Kanwa that the Suparco factory in Karachi is poised to produce the Chinese-designed A100 10-barrel Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS).
(For full story, please refer to August 2010 issue of Kanwa Asian Defence.)
 
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@hellfire. Since clearly you couldn't counter my arguments rationally, you resorted to sarcasm and cheap shots. No need to act like a sore looser that i have ripped your arguments apart, Good Day.

Your arguments can be countered, but only with a flexible mind. When you are not even aware of the reorganization of IA, how can one tell you what the salient features are and what does exist (with references from open sources) to achieve it. The example of you using "HOLDING CORPS" term is one such. That term is out as the same corps were designated "Pivot Corps" which have been organized now to not only hold ground but also launch own offensive operations as part of strategy to hold ground. So when you come up with deficient knowledge, you do fail to see the issue in the broader spectrum.

As for the Cold Start and whether we can achieve our objectives, I assure you I have quite an in depth knowledge, and not from sources/articles. So Good day to you too sir. See you after a couple of months.
 
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Speculations? heck it wasnt even confirmed tht we had procured the system... Untill the joint Drill "azme nau".......... No network or source had even reported abt it!

Also i know tht myself coz they just raised a new unit of the AR1A in the garrison where my father is posted....

Well the place where your father is posted, is that where these systems are being produced? Or is it one of the 2 units that have been equipped with A100s?

Anyways, I can assure you that Ordnance Factories in Pakistan are not yet producing them otherwise it would have been in the print media!!!
 
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That is surely happening. Along with that, India is also preparing for the war that may come when push comes to shove. How that extra money is being spent is what i am talking about. In what capabilities that money is being spent to counter what exactly is my point.

First I like the Cold Start Idea, which was proposed by India, but the concept has failed at the critical moments for India, for example Parliment attack and recently Mumbai attack. This showed the Pakistanies, that twice India today is not capable, so be it....

Pakistan today is incapable to launch any attacks because it has grown weaker then it has ever pondered, which is by itself an advantage for India...

But I do agree that Infrastructure has to be build for better mobility not because of Pakistanie threat, but more so of the Chinese....
 
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What Pakistan does is divert our budget unnecessarily into elements which would be of limited use against the real threat -

Look as Indians the threat is everywhere, but How we allocate and build, proves the strength of our country, not only for defense reasons but also for our population.

For example, Mexico was not in the picture of US interms of enemies, but they are today gaining control of US bit by bit. Infact, second language in US has become Spanish....

So, crying wolf is not doing any good here.
 
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notorious_eagle

No, where did you get this idea from? The Osama killing was a Special Ops, get in undetected, take out the enemy and get out. The Cold Start Doctrine means the crossing of your Armoured Formations inside Pakistan, literally using a hammer to tame Pakistan.

You can name it in different format, but the fundamental concept of Cold Start is to break Pakistanie souverignty for your countries benefit, so prove me wrong if US did not do this for it's own benefit.......
 
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You can name it in different format, but the fundamental concept of Cold Start is to break Pakistanie souverignty for your countries benefit, so prove me wrong if US did not do this for it's own benefit.......

So, in a similiar manner al qaeda did it to U S when the planes struck the towers---or when that baluch Kid took out the agency operators outside their office in washington----this kind of argument can get vague by the minute---. Now would it pertain to mumbai attacks---or the attack on the parliament as well----. Can the terrorists also have their cold start doctrine and implement it as they feel good about it!
 
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from what I have understood the rawlpindi wants to glow real green from indian nukes then they are welcome to glow real green

Would it be appropriate to say that there will be the feel of real orange glow across the border before rawalpindi feels to glow green---.
 
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So many seem to have the death wish here. Many from a safe distance with no possibility to a bodily harm to themselves.

So few who would do the right thing!

Unlike them, we have no death wish. India will not give them a chance to commit a national suicide if we can help it. Some may take it as cowardice, we will see who comes out tops in the long term.
 
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@vinod you are saying there will be a day when PA will cease to have the largest lathi then warlordism will start we can play a game of grand theft auto

---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

with pakistan as the plotbase
 
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