India's bridge, China's bunker block road to detente on LAC

[doorstar]

What he said is a fact. Most Indian women after they get married becomes oil barrel.

I think for most of Sub-continental women to look like the Michelin man is a sign of opulence, being like stick insect means you're poor

 

[Cookie Monster]

Since BJP came to power, they have made the population relatively more nationalistic

All BJP has done is create more hatred...between India/Pak...and between its own communities(mainly Hindu/Muslim but others are also included)...
...
This is what I don't understand...why is it that the definition of nationalism in India is to hate on Pakistan? I have not seen that in any country I've been to...not even in Pakistan where u might expect the same hatred in retaliation to Indian hatred. In Pakistan the hatred against India only surfaces when Pakistanis read some news about India firing on LoC or Indian military saying some bull crap about "teaching Pak a lesson". Other than that...nationalism mostly revolves around making the country better...mostly in terms of leadership(getting rid of corrupt leaders), economy, better living standards, etc. U won't see Pakistani news channels constantly pushing out crap like u guys do about "Pak ki napaak saajish" and self centered anchors yelling their delusions at others...bcuz it wouldn't sell. In India they do it bcuz it clearly sells...how does a nation of a billion ppl think that constant hating on a country serves as "nationalism"?

Wouldn't nationalism be providing more jobs, eliminating poverty, providing housing to the millions living in slums, raising living standards, etc?

 

[Robbie]

All BJP has done is create more hatred...between India/Pak...and between its own communities(mainly Hindu/Muslim but others are also included)...
...
This is what I don't understand...why is it that the definition of nationalism in India is to hate on Pakistan? I have not seen that in any country I've been to...even Pakistan where u might expect the same hatred in retaliation to Indian hatred. In Pakistan the hatred against India only surfaces when Pakistanis read some news about India firing on LoC or Indian military saying some bull crap about "teaching Pak a lesson". Other than that...nationalism mostly revolves around making the country better...mostly in terms of leadership(getting rid of corrupt leaders), economy, better living standards, etc. U won't see Pakistani news channels constantly pushing out crap like u guys do about "Pak ki napaak saajish" and self centered anchors yelling their delusions at others...bcuz it wouldn't sell. In India they do it bcuz it clearly sells...how does a nation of a billion ppl think that constant hating on a country serves as "nationalism"?

Wouldn't nationalism be providing more jobs, eliminating poverty, providing housing to the millions living in slums, raising living standards, etc?

Its an interesting question. Nationalism in India is not one or the other - which is to say eliminating poverty, sanitation, OR hating on Pakistan.

I would define it more as doing the exact opposite of what Congress did over the years. It has broadly three components - National security, legal system related to religion and development.

1. National security: Congress has been weak on this - this is not just with respect to Pakistan, but overall. So now nationalism means being aggressive against anyone and everyone
   
   
2. Legal system: Congress built and used the legal system to discriminate against the Hindus and also cultivated Muslims as a vote bank: An example would be that

• All major Hindu temples are controlled by the Government but Mosques and Churches are not controlled by the Government.
• The revenue earned by Temples is controlled by the Government but revenue from Mosques and Churches are not.
• Muslims have legal rights of polygamy, nikah which are not given to Hindus (triple talaq now made illegal).
• Right to Education laws that govern running schools are only applicable to Hindus but not to Muslims or Christians.
• Using the legal system to delay cases that pertain to Hindu faith like the Ram mandir case that had been dragging for decades.
  
  These are just some of the examples of why there is almost a hatred of Congress and also a building resentment against Muslims who are seen to be in cahoots with Congress

3. Development: Congress was leading India to a Venezuelan style socialist paradise. Basic infrastructure which should have been done decades ago languished. Most people did not have bank accounts, India had the worlds largest population practising open defecation, highways were barely being built, massive corruption, etc.​

BJP has done a LOT of good work on this. More than 300 million bank accounts for poor people opened in 4 years, now over 99% of households have at least one bank account and over 70% of individuals have their own bank accounts. Massive investment in sanitation leading to a dramatic reduction of hundreds of millions of people practising open defecation. very low corruption as all subsidies are electronically transferred to consumer bank accounts etc.​

Now depending on the context, one of these three pillars rises. So while you as a Pakistani only tend to focus on the tv debates and voices on national security and Pakistani, you miss out on equally vociferous & ferocious debates on development and legal systems.

So, depending on the context, nationalism will focus on one or a mixture of these three broad pillars.

This is my view. I think @Joe Shearer might have more to add to this conversation.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well, I do. It's just that while your listing the symptoms is very very good, your diagnosis is rather poor. The question is, should I interfere? It's too long an explanation, and doesn't address @Cookie Monster
directly.

I'm not too sure I should be spending time elaborating on what @Robbie has already explained, wrong though it is. After all, the results are exactly as he describes; so why waste everyone's time on analysis?

Its an interesting question. Nationalism in India is not one or the other - which is to say eliminating poverty, sanitation, OR hating on Pakistan.

I would define it more as doing the exact opposite of what Congress did over the years. It has broadly three components - National security, legal system related to religion and development.

1. National security: Congress has been weak on this - this is not just with respect to Pakistan, but overall. So now nationalism means being aggressive against anyone and everyone
   
   
2. Legal system: Congress built and used the legal system to discriminate against the Hindus and also cultivated Muslims as a vote bank: An example would be that

• All major Hindu temples are controlled by the Government but Mosques and Churches are not controlled by the Government.
• The revenue earned by Temples is controlled by the Government but revenue from Mosques and Churches are not.
• Muslims have legal rights of polygamy, nikah which are not given to Hindus (triple talaq now made illegal).
• Right to Education laws that govern running schools are only applicable to Hindus but not to Muslims or Christians.
• Using the legal system to delay cases that pertain to Hindu faith like the Ram mandir case that had been dragging for decades.
  
  These are just some of the examples of why there is almost a hatred of Congress and also a building resentment against Muslims who are seen to be in cahoots with Congress

3. Development: Congress was leading India to a Venezuelan style socialist paradise. Basic infrastructure which should have been done decades ago languished. Most people did not have bank accounts, India had the worlds largest population practising open defecation, highways were barely being built, massive corruption, etc.​

BJP has done a LOT of good work on this. More than 300 million bank accounts for poor people opened in 4 years, now over 99% of households have at least one bank account and over 70% of individuals have their own bank accounts. Massive investment in sanitation leading to a dramatic reduction of hundreds of millions of people practising open defecation. very low corruption as all subsidies are electronically transferred to consumer bank accounts etc.​

Now depending on the context, one of these three pillars rises. So while you as a Pakistani only tend to focus on the tv debates and voices on national security and Pakistani, you miss out on equally vociferous & ferocious debates on development and legal systems.

So, depending on the context, nationalism will focus on one or a mixture of these three broad pillars.

This is my view. I think @Joe Shearer might have more to add to this conversation.

 

[xeuss]

Its an interesting question. Nationalism in India is not one or the other - which is to say eliminating poverty, sanitation, OR hating on Pakistan.

I would define it more as doing the exact opposite of what Congress did over the years. It has broadly three components - National security, legal system related to religion and development.

1. National security: Congress has been weak on this - this is not just with respect to Pakistan, but overall. So now nationalism means being aggressive against anyone and everyone
   
   
2. Legal system: Congress built and used the legal system to discriminate against the Hindus and also cultivated Muslims as a vote bank: An example would be that

• All major Hindu temples are controlled by the Government but Mosques and Churches are not controlled by the Government.
• The revenue earned by Temples is controlled by the Government but revenue from Mosques and Churches are not.
• Muslims have legal rights of polygamy, nikah which are not given to Hindus (triple talaq now made illegal).
• Right to Education laws that govern running schools are only applicable to Hindus but not to Muslims or Christians.
• Using the legal system to delay cases that pertain to Hindu faith like the Ram mandir case that had been dragging for decades.
  
  These are just some of the examples of why there is almost a hatred of Congress and also a building resentment against Muslims who are seen to be in cahoots with Congress

3. Development: Congress was leading India to a Venezuelan style socialist paradise. Basic infrastructure which should have been done decades ago languished. Most people did not have bank accounts, India had the worlds largest population practising open defecation, highways were barely being built, massive corruption, etc.​

BJP has done a LOT of good work on this. More than 300 million bank accounts for poor people opened in 4 years, now over 99% of households have at least one bank account and over 70% of individuals have their own bank accounts. Massive investment in sanitation leading to a dramatic reduction of hundreds of millions of people practising open defecation. very low corruption as all subsidies are electronically transferred to consumer bank accounts etc.​

Now depending on the context, one of these three pillars rises. So while you as a Pakistani only tend to focus on the tv debates and voices on national security and Pakistani, you miss out on equally vociferous & ferocious debates on development and legal systems.

So, depending on the context, nationalism will focus on one or a mixture of these three broad pillars.

This is my view. I think @Joe Shearer might have more to add to this conversation.

Can't believe the level of incorrect information and myths in this post. Did you pull this all from a WhatsApp forward?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Can't believe the level of incorrect information and myths in this post. Did you pull this all from a WhatsApp forward?

It's unbelievable. The best part is that he sincerely believes in it.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Its an interesting question. Nationalism in India is not one or the other - which is to say eliminating poverty, sanitation, OR hating on Pakistan.

I would define it more as doing the exact opposite of what Congress did over the years. It has broadly three components - National security, legal system related to religion and development.

1. National security: Congress has been weak on this - this is not just with respect to Pakistan, but overall. So now nationalism means being aggressive against anyone and everyone
   
   
2. Legal system: Congress built and used the legal system to discriminate against the Hindus and also cultivated Muslims as a vote bank: An example would be that

• All major Hindu temples are controlled by the Government but Mosques and Churches are not controlled by the Government.
• The revenue earned by Temples is controlled by the Government but revenue from Mosques and Churches are not.
• Muslims have legal rights of polygamy, nikah which are not given to Hindus (triple talaq now made illegal).
• Right to Education laws that govern running schools are only applicable to Hindus but not to Muslims or Christians.
• Using the legal system to delay cases that pertain to Hindu faith like the Ram mandir case that had been dragging for decades.
  
  These are just some of the examples of why there is almost a hatred of Congress and also a building resentment against Muslims who are seen to be in cahoots with Congress

3. Development: Congress was leading India to a Venezuelan style socialist paradise. Basic infrastructure which should have been done decades ago languished. Most people did not have bank accounts, India had the worlds largest population practising open defecation, highways were barely being built, massive corruption, etc.​

BJP has done a LOT of good work on this. More than 300 million bank accounts for poor people opened in 4 years, now over 99% of households have at least one bank account and over 70% of individuals have their own bank accounts. Massive investment in sanitation leading to a dramatic reduction of hundreds of millions of people practising open defecation. very low corruption as all subsidies are electronically transferred to consumer bank accounts etc.​

Now depending on the context, one of these three pillars rises. So while you as a Pakistani only tend to focus on the tv debates and voices on national security and Pakistani, you miss out on equally vociferous & ferocious debates on development and legal systems.

So, depending on the context, nationalism will focus on one or a mixture of these three broad pillars.

This is my view. I think @Joe Shearer might have more to add to this conversation.

Well if we r talking economic development under BJP...
...I admit that I wouldn't know as much as an Indian citizen who would be glued to the happenings in the news regarding his country...but from reading the news every now and then...and trying my best to sift through all the politically biased fake news to get to an ounce of truth...
...my take is that while BJP talked big...it didn't deliver much.
1) The much touted currency ban was more a disaster and yielded little result.
2) The make in India policy and the various efforts to improve the trade imbalance with China didn't take off the ground as much as it was hyped.
3) Economic growth slowed...inflation rose...
...though the foreign exchange reserves did grow I believe.

In any case...what I'm interested in is...though economy may have flourished and money may have been made(mostly by the elites)...did it improve the conditions for the average Joe? IMO...I don't think it made any difference.

see how I dragged u into this Joe?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well if we r talking economic development under BJP...
...I admit that I wouldn't know as much as an Indian citizen who would be glued to the happenings in the news regarding his country...but from reading the news every now and then...and trying my best to sift through all the politically biased fake news to get to an ounce of truth...
...my take is that while BJP talked big...it didn't deliver much.
1) The much touted currency ban was more a disaster and yielded little result.
2) The make in India policy and the various efforts to improve the trade imbalance with China didn't take off the ground as much as it was hyped.
3) Economic growth slowed...inflation rose...
...though the foreign exchange reserves did grow I believe.

In any case...what I'm interested in is...though economy may have flourished and money may have been made(mostly by the elites)...did it improve the conditions of the average @Joe Shearer ?

see how I dragged u into this?

I noticed.

Their economic policy would be comic if it were not so tragic. They take their lead from certifiable idiots like Gurumurthy. You have to watch his interview with a sycophantic acolyte - forget his name - to understand how unbelievably dumb their best people are. Jagdish Bhagwati met him once (being a BJP fellow-traveller) and was appalled:"If he is an economist, I am a Bharat Natyam dancer."

The economy did NOT flourish; whatever they showed is due to voodoo statistics. The government's own statisticians protested, the chief statistician quit. Their finance minister is the most incredibly confused person in their ministry, in which, other than Nitin Gadkari, not a single person performs.

As for the average Joe, there has NEVER been a more callous government, never one more wrapped up in its self-obsession and disengaged from the troubles of the poor.

This is what it is now. We have a bunch of thoroughly incompetent non-performers, with a neurotic heading it, and a psychopathic killer for his number two.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I noticed.

Their economic policy would be comic if it were not so tragic. They take their lead from certifiable idiots like Gurumurthy. You have to watch his interview with a sycophantic acolyte - forget his name - to understand how unbelievably dumb their best people are. Jagdish Bhagwati met him once (being a BJP fellow-traveller) and was appalled:"If he is an economist, I am a Bharat Natyam dancer."

The economy did NOT flourish; whatever they showed is due to voodoo statistics. The government's own statisticians protested, the chief statistician quit. Their finance minister is the most incredibly confused person in their ministry, in which, other than Nitin Gadkari, not a single person performs.

As for the average Joe, there has NEVER been a more callous government, never one more wrapped up in its self-obsession and disengaged from the troubles of the poor.

This is what it is now. We have a bunch of thoroughly incompetent non-performers, with a neurotic heading it, and a psychopathic killer for his number two.

@Robbie care to comment on the above?

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Robbie care to comment on the above?

He's a nice guy. I'd rather drop out of this discussion, and delete my post.

 

[Cookie Monster]

He's a nice guy. I'd rather drop out of this discussion, and delete my post.

I'm not saying he is not nice...nor mocking him in any way. The goal was objective discussion(as it always is unless I'm purposefully trolling trolls).

The discussion started with his post regarding "since BJP came into power nationalism is on the rise...and that has made India unwilling to talk to Pak"(I'm paraphrasing)
...to which I replied "why is nationalism centered around hating Pak? Shouldn't it be centered around nation building?"...
...And now we r down this rabbit hole.

So circling back...if BJP didn't really deliver on the economic front...then why do ppl let it get away with the whole narrative of diverting attention away from domestic issues and creating a boogeyman(Pak)? Shouldn't the average joe be waking up?

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I know. You are getting enough Pakistanis women. Found that out in this forum only.

Reported to MODs

 

[Joe Shearer]

I'm not saying he is not nice...nor mocking him in any way. The goal was objective discussion(as it always is unless I'm purposefully trolling trolls).

The discussion started with his post regarding "since BJP came into power nationalism is on the rise...and that has made India unwilling to talk to Pak"(I'm paraphrasing)
...to which I replied "why is nationalism centered around hating Pak? Shouldn't it be centered around nation building?"...
...And now we r down this rabbit hole.

So circling back...if BJP didn't really deliver on the economic front...then why do ppl let it get away with the whole narrative of diverting attention away from domestic issues and creating a boogeyman(Pak)? Shouldn't the average joe be waking up?

It's a complex story. I have a paper on it. Would you read it?

 

[Cookie Monster]

It's a complex story. I have a paper on it. Would you read it?

Yes plz do send it my way

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes plz do send it my way

I'd appreciate your comments.