Indians look into Russia’s fifth-generation jet fighter

[gubbi]

Spot on!!! All are defense experts nowadays.LOL

what do you mean!!!!!

@ Benny

 

[Devianz]

Won't that be a compromise on stealth then ? I think they are trying to make it internal.

The size of weapons bay ~ 5 X 1.1m. I don't see how brahmos can be minimized to that size. I know air launched version would be smaller and it won't be having the rocket stage... still to reduce its length to around ~4.5m may not be possible.

You may need a bay this big to carry brahmos internally.

 

[Machoman]

whatever it is very sexy machine. Congrats to Indian.

 

[Kinetic]

Hi Kinetic -

Long time. Hope u r doing good.

So, do u think they can carry barhmos internally???, I think they really have to reduce the size for that.

Thanks dude.

I don't think PAK FA can carry current Brahmos internally and there is very little possibility that it will carry current version of Brahmos. By the time of induction of PAK FA Hypersonic Brahmos will be ready and I think it will be smaller than current Brahmos.

 

[Kinetic]

Under Engines!!!

Then Pak-Fa will not be stealth anymore!
BTW it is really interesting to see how few naive people start discussing jets as if they are engineers/defence analysts by birth.

Though there are little possibilities that current version of Brahmos will be there to arm PAK FA rather than hypersonic version (around 2015/16) but Brahmos is itself stealthy....

This is what Brahmos official website says....

"Stealth technology and guidance system with advanced embedded software provides the missile with special features."

"Feature: Low radar signature."

http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10

 

[Dash]

I think, like Gambit had mentioned somewhere, this aircraft has been designed with different set of priorities. Radar LO is a prerequisite but then some of that has been traded off for super-maneuverability. And with that trade-off comes external pylons to carry such munitions. FGFA, I think, surely would come with provisions for external payloads!
PAKFA is, honestly, overkill in the region (or for that matter for any region where F-22 does not play) for atleast, very conservative estimates, a couple of decades more!

Very true...
I have read somewhere that they will modify the hypersonic brahmos, and make it smaller so that it can carry Brahmos internally. Because it a deep strike role, if you add brahmos to it on external pylons, you are doing too much trade off stealth perse...

and that wont be good as airborne radars and ground sams can detect you sooner.

The other point is as the range of Brahmos is 300 kms, in case of any escalations in the region you still dont need a PAKFA or Su-30 Mki to carry it, when you can launch it from ground, in case of real deep strike missions, lets say when the targets is 600 Kms (min) you would want PAKFA to carry a brahmos (iam saying from the fact that, Brahmos will be used to take out imp installations, so it will be used first in a combat).

Now if there is a situation like that, and PAKFA will carry brahmos or even FGFA, then its a big trade off, something which u wouldnt want.

let me see if a link is available for miniaturization of brahmos.

 

[Dash]

Thanks dude.

I don't think PAK FA can carry current Brahmos internally and there is very little possibility that it will carry current version of Brahmos. By the time of induction of PAK FA Hypersonic Brahmos will be ready and I think it will be smaller than current Brahmos.

Yes, thats what I have heard, Brahmos with external pylon will be suicidal.
Mostly internally...but that at a later stage.

A brahmos ading to RCS of Su30 MKI is not a bog deal, but a big deal to PAKFA.

 

[gubbi]

Very true...
I have read somewhere that they will modify the hypersonic brahmos, and make it smaller so that it can carry Brahmos internally. Because it a deep strike role, if you add brahmos to it on external pylons, you are doing too much trade off stealth perse...

and that wont be good as airborne radars and ground sams can detect you sooner.

I dont see any advantage trying to get the air launched Brahmos fit into a bay just to maintain stealth.
Any deep strike attack will not rely on a single aircraft. The strike aircrafts carrying the Brahmos will be accompanied with air-superiority fighters supported by AWACS and SEAD. It will never be a "rambo" or a "lone wolf" scenario. Also, the whole strike group would try to evade enemy installations and interceptions as much as possible.
FTW, IAF is going to order 200 FGFAs and around 50 PAK-FAs. We already have ~120 Su-30MKIs in air-superiority role. Take your pick as to what specific roles these aircraft would be assigned.

The other point is as the range of Brahmos is 300 kms, in case of any escalations in the region you still dont need a PAKFA or Su-30 Mki to carry it, when you can launch it from ground, in case of real deep strike missions, lets say when the targets is 600 Kms (min) you would want PAKFA to carry a brahmos (iam saying from the fact that, Brahmos will be used to take out imp installations, so it will be used first in a combat).

Now if there is a situation like that, and PAKFA will carry brahmos or even FGFA, then its a big trade off, something which u wouldnt want.

Doesnt matter. Its a trade off and for a particular reason. Once the munitions are launched, radar LO returns and the multi-role aspect of the aircraft comes into play which will be a force-multiplier in aiding the accompanying air-superiority fighters to ward off enemy interceptions.
Brahmos is a supersonic (even maybe a hypersonic) missile with a good enough range. To try to miniaturize the missile to fit into a bay by trading off its vital range advantage seems illogical, IMHO.

And like I said, PAK-FA or FGFA, even with external pylons and compromised radar LO, is still overkill for the region or anywhere where F-22 dont play.

 

[Dash]

I dont see any advantage trying to get the air launched Brahmos fit into a bay just to maintain stealth.
Any deep strike attack will not rely on a single aircraft.

Thats one side of it, I am looking at both sides. What I mean here is why would you want to reduce the aircraft stealth by adding brahmos. Without getting into technicality, we all know that current PAKFA has stealth trade off from front side as well. So adding a brahmos is also a no-no..
I dont just want to restrict the view in the region, Iam talking abt PAKFA in over all. Now that you know that China is not coming up with a 5th gen soon so we can relax and its Valid

However someday China will come up with a 5th Gen and Pak will also get a 5th Gen from China. Now we need to think a little beyond. At that time if FGFA or brahmos carry a brahmos then how good it will be for another 5th Gen radar. (now we will agree that the world is not fielding fully operational UCAVs very soon, 5th Gen fighters are here to stay)...

So comparing that...

It will never be a "rambo" or a "lone wolf" scenario. Also, the whole strike group would try to evade enemy installations and interceptions as much as possible.

Now lets say MKI are also there with PAKFA, and MKI is carrying Brahmos and PAKFA is not, which goes with the above logic is fine.

But I wanted to know what if they have to carry brahmos themselves externally. If MKIs are carrying on their behalf then there is no point in adding brahmos to PAKFA, both internally and externally.

Brahmos is a supersonic (even maybe a hypersonic) missile with a good enough range. To try to miniaturize the missile to fit into a bay by trading off its vital range advantage seems illogical, IMHO

they are already doing it for the current version, there are minimizing the weight and length to be carried by aircrafts. They are already reducing teh size of the booster, coz the air launch will compensate the loss of kinematic performance due to the booster being taken off.

They might come up with an even smaller platform and we never know.

 

[anathema]

Doesnt matter. Its a trade off and for a particular reason. Once the munitions are launched, radar LO returns and the multi-role aspect of the aircraft comes into play which will be a force-multiplier in aiding the accompanying air-superiority fighters to ward off enemy interceptions.
Brahmos is a supersonic (even maybe a hypersonic) missile with a good enough range. To try to miniaturize the missile to fit into a bay by trading off its vital range advantage seems illogical, IMHO.

And like I said, PAK-FA or FGFA, even with external pylons and compromised radar LO, is still overkill for the region or anywhere where F-22 dont play.

Agreed ! And coupled with the fact that Brahmos has a mid course guidance / update system means that you launch Brahmos at stand off range (which will be more than 300) due to a/c's own velocity..and then let the AWACS or other a/c's hovering over the target feed the co-ordinates.

However on a side note -- If Brahmos is added externally and if its position is compromised -- then enemy anti aircraft and sams generally have an idea of where the a/c is or to where they are headed-- but the risk is neglible since LO will return once mijhile is launched.

 

[ganimi kawa]

AFAIK, the primary operational task for the PAK FA will be "air superiority". The capability to carry brahmos2 while being desirable , is certainly not essential for this craft.


*Speculation alert*

The MCA is supposed to be the future strike platform of IAF , so there is every chance that it may be designed keeping in mind specs of brahmos 2 ( which btw are evolving right now). Until then, Su 30 mki will continue to carry this large stick!

A strike package of brahmos 2 delivered by MCAs which in turn are escorted by PAK FAs!.......... Sounds nice, doesn't it!

 

[sancho]

If Brahmos will be integrated on Pak Fa / FGFA, it will only be used from the wing stations, because Brahmos is simply too heavy and big in size to carry it internally. The Brahmos version that will be ready by 2013, is expected to be between 7 and 8m long, with a weight of 2.5t and even for MKI that is too heavy to carry them on the wing stations. The Irkut CEO confirmed at Defexpo that a lighter version is under developmen, with the aim to carry up to 3 Brahmos (1 centerline and 1 on each wing) on the Flanker class fighters and these will most likely be available for Pak Fa / FGFA too.

Guys, don't forget stealth is only one part of 5.gen fighters, they still will do any role that actual fighters have to do too. If the Flankers carry heavy A2G missiles and bombs now, so will Pak Fa / FGFA, but of course with cover, or in later stages of war. Also don't forget that the US stealth fighters have the same problems to carry heavy weapons internally. F35 can't carry long range cruise missiles like JASSM, Storm Shadow, the JSOW glide bomb, or even Harpoon anti ship missiles internally, so it isn't a big deal that Brahmos will be carried externally.

 

[d14gtc]

the FGFA will be predominantly using weapons of Indian origin such as Astra, a Beyond Visual Range missile being developed by India, although in keeping with the Russian BVR doctrine of using a vast variety of different missiles for versatility and unpredictability to countermeasures, it can be expected to have compatibility with many different missile loadouts though but carrying Current version of Brahmos is by far any means seems to be not possible.

 

[Tshering22]

PAK FA might get hypersonic Brahmos. They are already considering Brahmos for PAK FA.

Good to see they are working closely. 250 PAK FA will be a good punch.

Guys, where do you think is going to be the internal carriage for weapons? According to reports now, there's going to be 8 internal points and 8 external. From the design, do you think they will have a rotating feed for missiles? Or will it be conventional like Raptor's internal bays?

 

[Tshering22]

And like I said, PAK-FA or FGFA, even with external pylons and compromised radar LO, is still overkill for the region or anywhere where F-22 dont play.

Gubbi, if you take a look at our surroundings, I think an overkill is what we exactly need and to use that overkill a couple of times so that our enemies are alarmed too about what we can do in future rather than the typical underestimating of enemy that Nehru did in 1962, costing us Aksai Chin.