Indians At It, Again

[RazPaK]

Somebody post the article from the Indian.

 

[Bang Galore]

You know, there is an accepted method to find out what most Pakistanis want. It's called an election. Most Pakistanis made their choice clear. It's you chaps who refuse to accept that truth & therefore spend much of your time slandering the elected politicians, the elected party, the process itself, yet you want the government to be removed/resign & the very same process to be repeated which will probably meet with your acceptance only if your chosen one is elected. Calling others fascists can be easily turned on its head by asking whether your own behavior in refusing to accept any election result & thereby the legitimacy of the government so formed, unless it matches your own preferences isn't a display of fascist tendencies at its basest.

 

[Abingdonboy]

So much anger. It seems a little misdirected. Fair enough you don't like outsiders commenting on internal issues but the fact is these matters clearly don't have purely internal consequences. And who better to comment on the crisis in India (other than Pakistanis but that isn't in vogue right now, I'll accept), it is the Indians who have been closely following events in Paksitan since day one, most American people pre-2001 probably couldn't even point to Pakistan on a map (Bush famously didn't even know who Mussharaf was when asked in 2000) and only now has Pakistan really recieved any attention. Indians are probably the best people after an actual Pakistani to comment as they are very well versed in the nation and have a form grasp on the issues. Now it isn't any Indians fault if a US paper/tv network asks for an Indian to comment instead of a Pakistani (for whatever reasons/predujuces).

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You know, there is an accepted method to find out what most Pakistanis want. It's called an election. Most Pakistanis made their choice clear. It's you chaps who refuse to accept that truth & therefore spend much of your time slandering the elected politicians, the elected party, the process itself, yet you want the government to be removed/resign & the very same process to be repeated which will probably meet with your acceptance only if your chosen one is elected. Calling others fascists can be easily turned on its head by asking whether your own behavior in refusing to accept any election result & thereby the legitimacy of the government so formed, unless it matches your own preferences isn't a display of fascist tendencies at its basest.

What/who exactly is that a response to? Or just a general rant on your part about the impatience of Pakistanis to see results from an elected government?

---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------

Indians are probably the best people after an actual Pakistani to comment as they are very well versed in the nation and have a form grasp on the issues. Now it isn't any Indians fault if a US paper/tv network asks for an Indian to comment instead of a Pakistani (for whatever reasons/predujuces).

Indian's aren't the best choice for analysis/opinion on Pakistan, if unbiased and objective analysis is the goal. This is where the 'self loathing/self flagellating hypocrisy' of Pakistani liberals comes into play, in that they end up making the opinions of Indians such as Dhume look 'accurate' and 'similar to those of the Pakistani intelligentsia', and that is where my criticizm voiced earlier comes in.

 

[RazPaK]

Who gets to decide when a democratically elected government's time is up? To the average Japanese, Indian or American, the answer is obvious: the same people who voted it into office in the first place. Not so for the average Pakistani.

In the country's 64-year history, power has never changed hands purely by the ballot. The army, working alone or in tandem with sympathetic civilians, hasn't let any elected leader finish his term, thanks to which democracy has failed to seep into the country's foundations. Now, if a loose grouping of generals, judges and opposition politicians gets its way, this sorry pattern could repeat itself.

At stake is the fate of the nearly four-year-old Pakistan Peoples Party government headed by President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani. Though the government enjoys a majority in parliament, outside powerful forces have coalesced against it. The Supreme Court is aggressively pursuing corruption charges against Mr. Zardari. The government has called for a vote of confidence in parliament, most likely to shore up political support ahead of a court ruling.

Enlarge Image

European Pressphoto Agency
Is army chief Gen. Kayani (left) plotting to overthrow the fragile government of Prime Minister Gilani (center) and President Zardari?

This recent spike in instability began late last year as the Supreme Court began investigating the "memogate" scandal. This involves a secret letter delivered to then-U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen shortly after the American raid that killed Osama bin Laden last May. Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's former ambassador to the U.S., is accused of secretly proposing to dilute army control of national security in return for American help in warding off a coup. Mr. Haqqani denies any involvement in the memo affair.

Events seemed to snowball into a crisis last week when the army publicly warned the government of "serious ramifications with potentially grievous consequences," after Mr. Gilani told China's People's Daily Online that the army leadership had acted unconstitutionally by making submissions to the court's memogate inquiry without government approval. Meanwhile, cricketer-turned-politician Imran Khan, widely believed to have the tacit backing of the generals, warned the government of a "tsunami march" of protestors should it disregard a Supreme Court decision that could, among other possibilities, dismiss Mr. Zardari.

To be sure, many Pakistanis have good reason to wish to see the back of their unpopular president. Some regard Mr. Zardari as the undeserving beneficiary of a sympathy vote in 2008 following the assassination of his wife, former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. Mr. Zardari has never shaken a reputation for sticky fingers—when his wife was in power he was dubbed Mr. 10%. He denies any wrongdoing. Perhaps the defining image of Mr. Zardari's presidency was a 2010 visit to his chateau in Normandy while floods deluged much of Pakistan. Neither Mr. Zardari nor Mr. Gilani is about to win any awards for good governance.

As for the memo scandal, the accusation that the government was willing to barter away national sovereignty to cling to power has further wounded the president. Though the charges are unproven and though some question the credibility of the chief accuser, Pakistani-American businessman Mansoor Ijaz, many believe that Mr. Haqqani is guilty—and by extension, Mr. Zardari as well.

Yet, whatever their frustrations, Pakistanis need to be wary of a cure that's worse than the disease. Simply put, the costs to the country of yet another government turfed out prematurely—whether by the courts or the army—far outweigh any benefits. How can democracy be expected to take root when undemocratic forces yank it out of the ground every few years?

Pakistanis must also understand that none of the main protagonists in this drama can credibly claim to be placing national interests over parochial ones. The Supreme Court has gone out of its way to target Mr. Zardari and Mr. Haqqani while ignoring older cases. Don't hold your breath for the good justices to investigate the role of the army's Inter-Services Intelligence in influencing national elections, or claims that the ISI canvassed Middle Eastern countries to support a coup last summer. And then there's the mystery of why the world's most wanted terrorist was comfortably ensconced a stone's throw from Pakistan's premier military academy in Abbottabad.

Over six decades the army has perfected the art of dressing up self-interest as patriotism. In most democratic countries, army chief Gen. Ashfaq Kayani and the spymaster Gen. Pasha would have been sacked long ago for incompetence or insubordination. No institution has done more to dilute Pakistan's sovereignty, tarnish its reputation by backing terrorism, or slow down development by devouring the lion's share of the national budget. In that sense, Gens. Kayani and Pasha follow a long tradition of Pakistani military officers better at political intrigue than at fighting either enemies abroad or terrorists within.

Pakistan once again finds itself at a crossroads where it can choose between strengthening democracy and perpetuating the malign influence of a politicized army. At this point, those baying for Mr. Zardari's blood ought to remember one simple fact: that the democratic process is more important than a single individual.

If the current government is allowed to complete its term, and elections held on schedule in 2013, the country will pass an important milestone on the road to genuine democracy. If not, we have to expect even more turmoil from what is already dubbed the most dangerous place on earth.

Here's the entire article from Sadanand Dhume.

 

[RazPaK]

Why is this Indian making a big stink when PA always goes through the supreme court? Is the ousting of the government not within Democratic parameters?

 

[cyphercide]

Both of those are tied into Pakistan wanting legitimacy for its nuclear program and an equal application of international rules on nuclear trade. There is also a significant security concern tied into the exception granted to India by the NSG, in that it allows India to potentially divert more domestic nuclear fuel into its weapons program, thereby increasing its warhead capacity manifold.

While you may want to make a simple comparison here to denigrate Pakistan, Pakistan's position on the NSG exemption is well reasoned and legitimate.


Sorry, lost here, what are you referring to exactly?


Pakistan has been offering to train Afghan troops for a while now - its the media that chooses to jump on Pakistani statements at particular points in time and make it look like an existing position is somehow a 'reaction' to an Indian proposal.

# My intentions aren't to denigrate Pakistan.The policy is by far a smart one of letting the bigger nation catch the flak.Pakistan can kick back and comfortably maintain it's stance while India gets the short end of the stick,no doubt it is a sweet deal for Pakistan.But as an Indian,I get the distinct impression that Pakistan is throwing a spanner into the efforts of India deliberately and just for the sake of throwing a spanner.

# When Hillary Clinton made the proposition to India to engage the East as an addendum to our "Look East" policy and this is something that has little relevance to Pakistan and yet it was Pakistan that came up with the retort "not going to accept any chaudry in the region". Why must Pakistan be so presumptuous in it's mindset as to think everything is aimed at them?

# Why bring up the topic of training troops in the immediate aftermath of India's proposal? You do realize it does look like Pakistan trying every trick of the trade to negate India's efforts from our side.

Would you accept it if the Indian government goes out on it's way to deliberately harm Pakistan's interests as a nation even where they are not required? Haven't we shown support and cooperation in non essential regions be it by voting for Pakistan in the UN or offering an MFN status more than a decade back.Where is the reciprocity in intentions?

 

[prabhakar]

Why is this Indian making a big stink when PA always goes through the supreme court? Is the ousting of the government not within Democratic parameters?

we are not stinking .. the point is who the hell is PA who can go against GoP. Isn't that state within a state? I don't know what kind of mentality you people have after ruled by PA for more than half of your history .

 

[Bang Galore]

What/who exactly is that a response to? Or just a general rant on your part about the impatience of Pakistanis to see results from an elected government?

My post was for those who claim to speak for majority Pakistanis, as for your description of it as a rant; rich coming from you. Impatience is common & understandable, a wanton disregard for constitutional processes is not. There is a fixed time for people to make a different choice, if that be their wish. Until that time, this government which holds a majority is the only body internationally accepted as speaking for Pakistan & Pakistanis. Calling them & their supporters liberals fascists or otherwise only exposes that vein running richly in the accuser rather than any objective judgement being passed.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why is this Indian making a big stink when PA always goes through the supreme court? Is the ousting of the government not within Democratic parameters?

The government is not being ousted - the SC has only warned three individuals with disqualification - the President, Prime Minister and Law Minister, and the PPP has been given over two years to implement the SC orders on the NRO.

Even assuming the worst case scenario, of all three individuals named being disqualified, Parliament can continue to function, as can the rest of the cabinet, until Parliament elects a new Prime Minister and President, and then goes into the next elections.

The only thing being threatened here are the dynastic fiefdoms of the Bhutto/Zardari clan.

Dhume, as well as many Pakistani liberals, are either being completely dishonest/disingenuous in making this claim of 'threat against democracy', or are simply hysterical and therefore cannot see reason out of their hatred of the Pakistan Army/Establishment.

---------- Post added at 01:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------

My post was for those who claim to speak for majority Pakistanis, as for your description of it as a rant; rich coming from you. Impatience is common & understandable, a wanton disregard for constitutional processes is not. There is a fixed time for people to make a different choice, if that be their wish. Until that time, this government which holds a majority is the only body internationally accepted as speaking for Pakistan & Pakistanis. Calling them & their supporters liberals fascists or otherwise only exposes that vein running richly in the accuser rather than any objective judgement being passed.

What part of the Supreme Court's actions so far have not been constitutional?

Why should people who disagree with the government, its policies and those who support it/them not call them out for what they are or how they perceive them? Are you not advocating against freedom of speech here?

 

[RazPaK]

Dhume, as well as many Pakistani liberals, are either being completely dishonest/disingenuous in making this claim of 'threat against democracy', or are simply hysterical and therefore cannot see reason out of their hatred of the Pakistan Army/Establishment.

These were my suspicions all along. The question is who would benefit from a weakened PA? Any Indian members care to take a guess?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

These were my suspicions all along. The question is would benefit from a weakened PA? Any Indian members care to take a guess?

Pakistan of course!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan of course!

Pakistan would not benefit from a weakened PA, Pakistan would benefit from a strong and effective government - the two are not mutually exclusive.

The PA will only be weakened domestically when the elected government starts delivering - as in the case of the AKP in Turkey.

 

[IndoUS]

There has to be trust and balance in power. The government(elected by the Pakistani people) should have power over the PA. Its not the PA job to take the government to court its the job of the people of Pakistan to remove the government from power if they don't like the way they are performing.

 

[KS]

I am arguing that part, but 'that part' is not the main point of my argument - the main point is the hypocrisy of Pakistani liberals in cheering extra-judicial massacres and Human rights violations at the hands of US Drone Strikes and military operations, while condemning much smaller scale extra-judicial deaths and disappearances allegedly at the hands of the security forces in Balochistan.

Why do you disagree with my position on Pakistani liberal hypocrisy on that issue?

The point of the Pakistani liberals (in your language liberal fascists) is that is the Pak Army/FC itself doesn't respect the constitution and commits violations by kidnaping/torturing/killing the citizens it has sworn to protect just because their political views doesn't fall in line with the Establishment then there is no point in blaming a foreign power and its violations especially when that violations are in active collusion with the powers-that-be in Pindi and Isloo.

Just because US violates Pakistan doesn't mean the Pakistan Army can also violate it. the latter is much worse than the former. That is what the "liberal fascists" say and there is 100% truth in it.